RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 10:06:39)

Relfex + asim combo is not a porblem at all....


Did you not notice mages have REROUTE and asimilation....

Blood mages need beserk traded for asim not only to slightly weakin the STR build in the fact that they won't be so effortless. BUT it will actuly allow blood mages to go strategical builds and stand a chance agiant powerbuilds if they have asimilation.

2 birds one stone..



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 10:08:35)

Yes. I totally agree. [:D]



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 11:23:28)

@remorse I don't know what game you're playing but my BM build ate all other strength builds on a regular basis. I'd say to replace Zerker with Bludgeon so as to lower the damage output of BMs while still giving them that offensive feel to their class. Plus they'll be forced to do physical damage along with the physical damage of Fireball thus making it much easier to defend. But on the other hand an energy drain will be harder to use on them. But Bludgeon does have a 2 turn cooldown to it that might prevent them from abusing it multiple times a match.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 11:31:47)

@ ND

That would actualy imo OP BM even more... I've seen TechMages with little strenght that can do +35 damage with a lvl 1 Bludgeon...
shure, it ain't no berzerker but the pricecost is a lot less and you don't need to train a lot of it giving you skillpoints reserve to train
anotehr skill

Bm's Can use Assimilate and what might also persuade more people to use Defensive builds is buffing Intimidate...



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 11:48:06)

^ And replacing TLM's FC with Intimidate as suggested on previous page. Mercs also have it and in my opinion, nerfer > buffer with right build.

Although, andy, Intimidate buff is going to happen but not set date. They are trying to revamp it to make it more useful, but maybe they'll just buff the values up.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 16:50:54)

On the whole i think we have got all the nerfs/buffs/changes ready to go, now we will just wait and see. [:)]

@ND

For a start, why make it worse than it already is, BMs will be able to spam bludgeon, even a Reflex could gain 10EP back. They mightn't even need fireball, just bludgeon away, and considering how quickly they rage, 2 cooldowns for a bludgeon means rage+bludgeon every 2 turns.
On the otherhand assimilation allows them to go against builds like str or tank. Suffice to say if someone statics or gets some. EP back by reroute, assimilation is zero cost+damage+EP gain+EP drain. In fact the first i heard it i thought OP. But BMs are naturally weak due to no diverse builds other than zerk which forces STR.

And TLM replacement for INTIMIDATE, well the problem with that is they might receive less EP back. And right now reroute and FM is their only survival, frenzy won't count if it's blocked or do little damage. But like i said, we'll see how it goes. :D



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 17:05:26)

BM is supposed to be an offensive class. They should be able to defend but they should be best at damaging the enemy.

@arev So a BM will waste the 12 energy to use a lvl 1 Reflex when they could just use Bludgeon instead? How often does a str build last in a fight? 5-6 turns at the most. That's only 3 Bludgeons and that isn't assuming the BM will use a gun or any other skill in between the Bludgeons. With Fireball and Bludgeon, you can easily defend against a BM. Throw up some physical defense and you lowered 2 moves while before you may have only lowered 1 before. Berzerker still does more damage, it's just split between 3 hits and therefore looks like less. When you hit 35 with one hit or you hit 35 times and each is 1, you still get the same damage but people would think the 1 hit is more OPd because they see the huge number instead of the several low numbers. I hit way more with Zerker than I hit with Bludgeon. Often times I hit 30+ with Bludgeon. Zerker almost always gave me 40+. But I often feel like it's less because it's usually 8-8-24 or such numbers compared to the plain 30 of Bludgeon.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 17:16:45)

@ND

it seems like a weak buff to BMs but u forgot, most BMs have Azrael, even if i DMed i would have waste 9-11 EP while have only 4 DEF pts. Not even considering that BMs need more than just STR abusing builds. They might be unique for having all offensive attacks. but not only that we are trying to weaken it while giving them another way to survive with all the other classes out there. True offense is the best defense, i had to boost and heal and still lost due to their high amount of damage. Not to mention Bludgeon is a really strong low-costing PHY attack+rage=uncontrollable damage. Assimilation allows a new route for BMs while also lowering chances of stat abusing. Even with assimilate they can go offensive. Not to mention it adds damage as well, assimilate on rage and their u go.

With assimilate they can try various builds. And IF we replace DA with SA, they can even start dex builds. But i don't see that coming on very well. Overall assimilate is best of choices, but bludgeon is just plain melee attack making TMs less diverse/unique in their own way.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 17:20:22)

@arev My problem with Assimilation is that it can very easily ruin a win for the other guy. I have fought dozens of CHs, TLMs and TMs that would have won if it were not for my Assimilation leaving them just a little short of a heal.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 17:23:07)

It's a matter of perspective really ND
I look at is as in, an Assimilate might be enough to keep you alive for another turn...
Ruin someones critical attack forcing them to actualy Rethink their strategy
or give you that little Energy you need to use a skill or a heal...



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 17:28:07)

@ND

I admire your lookout for others, not only for your own benefit. But CHs,TLMs,TMs all have EP regain, so i think we can take care of ourselves. But if they fall short of EP then get another build or increase your EP amount. Besides, BM needs a buff and a nerf so we have decided that assimilation would be best choice. And assimilation is also a very strategic skill which people like you could benefit from. And yes i have experienced same outcomes of falling short for wins due to EP problems, but this game has gains and pains. You can't win every time. [:D]



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 19:56:36)

Wait, can anyone tell me why the "Energy Version of Blood Lust" has not gotten any attention? (Repalces Static Charge on CH).

AKA = I attack my opponent, I get energy back passively (on every hit), which functions just like Blood Lust except it regains EP not HP?

Sure, it's a passive to replace Static, but I think we can work out some of the skill tree things. Remove Plasma Armor, give us back Technician, and replace Shadow Arts for us with Deadly Aim from BM (swap the two skills. They're even in the same place :P). That way BMs have some sort of "lucky factor" to block. Maybe modify Shadow Arts so that it also gives you % chance to connect? That would really help BM's Zerkers, and give us CH deadly aim?




Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 20:58:45)

@Joe
Exactly what we discussed in the fewer pages back, but an Energy lust for static does sound pretty good. Although it should be better than static so we wouldn't get totally nerfed due to PA-TECH which is also a good idea. I like the sound of Energy Lust, hopefully we could discuss further on that Joe. [:D]



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/31/2012 23:59:52)

Assimilate: just to address in an issue brought up in a locked topic. I think Reroute should still work when you strike them with Assimilate. why should TM/TLM have
their skill nerfed just to satisfy Assimilate users? if you take damage while you have Reroute, you should get energy back [Poison is still an issue]. Assimilate still
takes energy from them and is still incredibly useful against players with Reroute. it just isn't ALWAYS gonna be effective. my main is Mage and I love Assimilate.

@Joe: the thing is, many Cybers play the class because Static Charge made it so much fun. I personally never wanted reroute or any other passive energy regen.
problem is they introduced Plasma Armour, ruining the creativity of CH, and then they nerfed Static Charge, the skill that didn't even make CH OP in the first place.

we just wanna go back :)

for all those who went all out offensive on me for mentioning a possible issue with having Assimilate and Reflex boost, it was right before I went to bed, sorry guys.
I didn't consider that Mages [my main class] have Reroute and Assimilate. so yeah I still agree with replacing BM's Berzerker with Assimilate and seeing if that works.




Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 2:47:06)

It's ok, as long as you see our reason, everything is fine. And true i loved CH because of SC, made us unique as i posted on the previous balance discussion. Go with the PA-TECH, SA-DA, SC/MASS full % and i think CHEAP-hunters curse.



yellaboyung -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 9:09:29)

Well i put some thought into this and, Tactical Mercenary's Surgical Strike is way underpowered. If you compare it to the power of Super Charge from mages, or Massacre to Bounty Hunters or even Berzerker to Blood Mages and Mercenaries, its too underpowered. Tacticals can not win as fast as the other classes due to the way the skills are set for them. So i was thinking, maybe its time tacticals get a slight buff in the right direction. I think the power of the Surgical Strike should be risen. And since i think it should be risen, to even out the playing field the requirements of Surgical Strike should be changed from Dexterity, to Support. If it is still dexterity Tacts or Mercs wont have a problem with adding it so they can tank. Im not just saying this because I own a tactical mercenary and want buffs for myself though.

Also if you think about what a tactical has for quick wins, its nothing lol! Many people can yell "Strength Build!!!" all they want but that cant stop a Dex Mage, Strength BH, Strength BM, or anything because the best strength move we have is Double Strike (which is also not good enough if you compare it to what other classes have got).

Anddd if you think our poison is good, it is! It just doesnt quite win fast enough.... x_x

Ty to whoever read this! :D [:D]



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 9:18:01)

quote:

Well i put some thought into this and, Tactical Mercenary's Surgical Strike is way underpowered. If you compare it to the power of Super Charge from mages, or Massacre to Bounty Hunters or even Berzerker to Blood Mages and Mercenaries, its too underpowered.

They are all about same power, effects made them special - rage drain can do a lot as well as small HP drain. And Berzerker can miss + deal low damage, SS cannot miss + deals base 20 damage, no less.
quote:

Tacticals can not win as fast as the other classes due to the way the skills are set for them. So i was thinking, maybe its time tacticals get a slight buff in the right direction.

Time affects balance? This isn't an issue, speed has nothing to do with it. Quick wins = Str abuse.
quote:

And since i think it should be risen, to even out the playing field the requirements of Surgical Strike should be changed from Dexterity, to Support.

No? Dex is required for Mineral which almost all TLMs have, by making it Support you're giving the skill to Focus 5/Support TLMs rather than now letting everyone have it. That's kinda like crippling them instead.
quote:

Also if you think about what a tactical has for quick wins, its nothing lol! Many people can yell "Strength Build!!!" all they want but that cant stop a Dex Mage, Strength BH, Strength BM, or anything because the best strength move we have is Double Strike (which is also not good enough if you compare it to what other classes have got).

You answered your own question about quick wins. Best move is DS? Right. So Frenzy is useless, Poison isn't worth training, SS is weak as you mentioned (like hell no), Mineral makes class weak, Reroute is weak.. It's called Tactical Mercenary. You're focusing on strategy, hence Reroute and no plain offensive skill. I can think of 3 builds on top of my head for standard choices and few "mix'n'match" which are custom-made. There's a lot of choices that can work with TLM. Besides if you cannot kill neither of builds you've mentioned, then your strategy is poor. You should be able to take care of Str BHs and Str BMs a lot easier with Mineral, Reroute + Heal makes it even better and combine with Atom. Yep, weak.

:3



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 9:31:59)

Ultimate STR Killer (CH):

Bye bye Massacre, hello Surgical Strike. :3



yellaboyung -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 9:38:42)

Thats why i posted that XDDDDD Ty for basically telling me what to do. BUTTTT as you mention before, Berzerker can miss, but thats not any classes special move. Like Massacre, Super Charge, Surgical Strike, Poison, etc. So yeah it can be blocked. Also the base damage of 20 is not good enough at lvl 34. Its okay i mean, but it wont get you anywhere while a blood mage, bh, or tech mage is hacking away at your health with no problem using their superior Strength (Blood Mage), Superior Block + Strength (BH) and Superior overall power (Dex Tech Mage).

And yes, time kind of does effect balance. You can have the best class in the world and win 1 battle every 3 minutes (which is slow) and never lose but still will never win a title due to this. So if you balance out the power by buffing Tacts and Mercenaries just a bit, it should be on track.

Also 5 Focus isn't even as strong as it was before. If they become 5 Focus, they cant spam away on tech all day like Tech Mages do with their beloved Super Charge right?

And you can have all the choices you want, make all the builds you want. But overall, Tactical Mercenaries kill at a MUCH slower pace than its competitors. If you use Double Strike, its a weaker version of Berzerker and they both can be blocked as well. So while your doing double strike at max power, they can have Berzerker at lvl 1 and match your power (If strength is nearly the same). And l never said i couldn't kill them. I win, but very slowly. And yes I've tried many different builds (but builds and strategy is another story)....What i'm saying is, Surgical Strike is underpowered. Thats it. lol.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 10:01:33)

Base damage of 20 ain't enough? Lvl 1 skill already works on Tanks, as you will always do base 20 damage so it's good to finish off, nothing else + effect of SS still applies (Rage drain).
Time doesn't affect it. What you imply is that TLM kill too slow, where's problem with that? If it's slow, it's because there are stat abusers around which make you feel weak and kill you quickly - they will be taken care of very soon. TLMs are balanced now, Merc might be still a bit UP but TLM > Merc really. I look at skills and how they go together, TLMs have much better way to Tank with Poison and Focus 5 which works like charm.
What you proved with DS and Berzerker is right, but they are at different tiers and of course are supposed to be stronger. If you want Berzerker, turn back to Mercenary or go BM. If you win, there's no problem. It ain't even a balance issue if you manage to win, if you lost all the time then it is.

PS. Tech spam and Super Charge? SC uses Dex to improve.. <_< >_>



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 10:15:24)

I hope STR BH doesn't get affected badly when , and i don't really know when is it , there will be nerfs to STR due to the fact that BL is only effective if we ( STR BHs ) hit high damage per turn .



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 10:24:50)

@aegis You do realize that with any high damage attacks you'll be getting health back from Bloodlust right? Support, Focus, Strength, Dex all can give you big damage.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 10:27:26)

@ND
Yes but the question is : How often do you damage a lot? It's the one of the most effective builds so far , along with 5 Focus and TECH ( though yes they rely heavily on bots but that's really not the reason ) . Though yes , i know it's a kinda too strong but not in the way of restricting them not to use STR .

SUPP is UP for the class because of what? Only RB and ES are improved but not SS and EMP ? Yep that's UP all right .
DEX only works if you have enough EP for attacks , but what if i used EMP ?
And last but not the least , TECH builds . Although it is effective , this stat is perfect to combine with STR with the help of P armorand decent DEX .



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 10:52:46)

@ ND,


I disagree,

I think The balanced Blood mage build doesnt compete well enough agianst Powerbuilds.

When I say powerbuilds I dont means just STR I mean, any Attck spammer such as caster mages.

Infact being the ONLY class without a energy drain of some sort that automatically makes them suseptible to ALOT of builds.

There balanced Build IS great I have tested it and used it for a while and found it to be very awsome to have sheilds and intim to counter STRbuilds BUT without enery drains they are completely open to powerbuilds reilying on energy for emence power which includes some STR builds and Caster builds etc.


In my opinion blood mages need to get an energy drain of some sort.
1. Asim for beserk,
2. EMP for beserk,
3. New energy drain skill for beserk.


My new energy drain idea for Blood mages:
Nightmare:
warm up: 0 ,cool down: 3
Energy cost :0
Sacrifises some HP to drain your opponents energy and recieve 25% of the energy drain.
Level 1: 11 hp for 20 energy drain
lvl 2: 12 hp for 22 energy drain
lvl 3: 13 hp for 24 energy drain
lvl 4: 14 hp for 26 energy drain
lvl 5: 15hp for 28 energy drain
lvl 6: 16 hp for 30 energy drain
lvl 7:17hp for 32 energy drain
lvl 8: 18hp for 33 energy drian
lvl 9: 19 for 34 energy drain
max: 20 hp for 35 energy drian




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 16:27:20)

RETRIBUTION

Retribution is designed to combat extremism when crowding stat points into one stat type for a specific massive advantage that often guarantees the user quick or easy wins without tactfulness (not very much strategy).

After 100 stat points, then after every 20 stat points, penalties will add up.

(Agility has been changed 'v')


a-Health
b-Energy
c-Strength
d-Dexterity
e-Technology
f-Support

a-Agility
b-Stamina
c-Concentration
d-Stability
e-Vigilance
f-Disdain


Agility: Rage Rate

Stamina: Skill Performance

Concentration: Chance to Connect

Stability: Chance to be Critical Hit

Vigilance: Block Chance and Chance to be Stunned

Disdain: Deflect Chance and Chance to be Deflected


Agility:

Health < 101
None

Health > 100
Rage Rate - 15%

Health > 120
Rage Rate - 30%

Health > 140
Rage Rate - 45%

Etc...


Stamina:

Energy < 101
None

Energy > 100
Skill Effect - 15%

Energy > 120
Skill Effect - 30%

Energy > 140
Skill Effect - 45%

Etc...


Concentration:

Strength < 101
None

Strength > 100
Weapon Accuracy - 15%

Strength > 120
Weapon Accuracy - 30%

Strength > 140
Weapon Accuracy - 45%

Etc...


Stability:

Dexterity < 101
None

Dexterity > 100
Chance to be Critical Hit + 15%

Dexterity > 120
Chance to be Critical Hit + 30%

Dexterity > 140
Chance to be Critical Hit + 45%

Etc...


Perception:

Technology < 101
None

Technology > 100
Block Chance - 7.5%, Chance to be Stunned + 7.5%

Technology > 120
Block Chance - 15%, Chance to be Stunned + 15%

Technology > 140
Block Chance - 22.5%, Chance to be Stunned + 22.5%

Etc...


Disdain:

Support < 101
None

Support > 100
Deflect Chance - 7.5%, Chance to be Deflected + 7.5%

Support > 120
Deflect Chance - 15%, Chance to be Deflected + 15%

Support > 140
Deflect Chance - 22.5%, Chance to be Deflected + 22.5%

Etc...



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