RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 17:01:58)

Objection! (Finnaly got to used that xP)

I'll be happy to review it!
G'luck



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 17:06:43)

@Remorse

35 EP drain at max lv?

That's way too much, and 20hp wouldn't even do a thing to Bms due to their high HP amount. Sure it will take down STR builds, but then they can do high HP build + max 'Nightmare'.
With a decent amount of DEF/RES and STR. Or they could even start TECH builds which is quite strong with Nightmare, allowing them to spam it through HP boosters. And also considering it's a drain, meaning you take out your opponents EP to yourself by 35. That's enough for a Mass/SC/SS. Asim would be best as you have suggested in the first one.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 17:29:57)

First of all i hate writing on balance discussion but there is a very stupid thing i heard so i feel i need to write this.

Now i heard Beta weapons will get requirements, thats the most ridiculous thing i ever seen, no requirements is the only purpose of these items. Beta items was never be the most powerfull item in game EVEN IN BETA unlike all of the other promos. Founder armor dominated for 2 years, Bunnyzookas dominated Beta, Gamma bot dominated total gamma stage(than nerfed), Eggzookas dominated Gamma and still dominating, Delta Maul made Str TLm OP and still one of the best Maul, etc...

Now beta players got 1 build that they can use after 3 years of waiting, and the build is not OP at 1vs1 at all. It is only OP at 2vs2. I want to ask Developers, Are you the ones buffed plasma bolt to make caster mages more usefull?!?!, here we go they are usefull, and if you gonna nerf the build, Why you buffed it in the first place?!?! Lets say they made a mistake, the last question will be, Why Beta items is the scapegoat in here?!?!

If you want to nerf Caster mage simply add str requirement back to Plasma Bolt.

Ok now Beta items give +70 Tech with fully enhanced with Tesla P armor(with no requirement). Now Spirit Pike(+6 more dmg)-Charfades Blaster(+2 more dmg)-Lagomorph Laser(+5 more dmg)-Tesla P gives +63 Tech with 38 dex requirement.

the only thing change will be -5 res, -5 plasma bolt dmg, -4 plasma rain dmg and +4 def. And this can be minimized with lowering energy or Hp. Lets say Betas will get requirement, and what if Caster mage still dominate 2vs2 with the weps i told?!?!

Betas will be nerfed for nothing. The only special thing with those weps will be gone. I want balance team to do 1 right thing in their balancing actions, just ask your self why those weps never become a problem in 3 years and it become a problem now ????????


Post edited. There is no need to troll anyone. ~Mecha



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 17:49:24)

quote:

Now beta players got 1 build that they can use after 3 years of waiting, and the build is not OP at 1vs1 at all. It is only OP at 2vs2.


And 2v2 dosent count, or what? It is OP in 1v1 aswell for that matter. And beta items have always been strong. In beta I for one used a massive str build as BH with it. And I have used the beta gun many times to get many "extra" stats without wasting other stats on requirements. Weapons without requirements IS OP.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 17:55:09)

No requirements is the purpose right.. So either that, or I want weapons to have severly crippled damage and stats. Yes, requirements are better as they are Lvl 25 weapons only. If they aren't even OPed, why do you even care?
Stat abuse exists with Beta, that's the problem. Maybe you don't care but rest of the players who get beaten by them do, and we spoke about requirements for Beta weapons at least WEEKS back if not MONTHS. Sorry if you noticed just now, maybe you don't read this thread but that isn't our problem, Betas were discussed numerous amount of times.

And why there weren't problem before but are now? Enhancements + Stat abusing. See how simple Caster TM is yet effective? Yes, because of no requirements.

Items you mentioned - all but Spirit Pike are Limited Rares. And these are for minority of players unless big quantities or numerous restocks were made + not everyone have them or want to use/enhance them.

Sorry if this breaks your build, if you abuse as well, which is pretty obvious with full Beta Gear equipped.. Another rant because your build is getting nerfed? Oh pity you. Sincerely, players who lose people like you.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 18:46:36)

TELL ME 1 BUILD DIFFERENT THAN CASTER MAGE THAT IS OP NOW AND I WILL DIRECTLY AGREE TO NERF IT. in 3 years there is 1 usefull build with that weps and they gonna nerf the weps not build :/

quote:

If they aren't even OPed, why do you even care?

They become usefull in Boss NPC, atleast they only work for it. With requirements those weapons is dead
quote:

Maybe you don't care but rest of the players who get beaten by them do

Yeah noobs that dont know how to beat it, im 100% sure i can beat them with only primary [:-](for 1vs1). BTW i also agree that its OP in 2vs2, but the solution is not adding requirement on betas.
quote:

and we spoke about requirements for Beta weapons at least WEEKS back if not MONTHS. Sorry if you noticed just now, maybe you don't read this thread but that isn't our problem, Betas were discussed numerous amount of times.

They make a wep with no requirements to make players want to buy after everybody bought they remove it from game and nerf it, and we cant even get refund :/
quote:

And why there weren't problem before but are now? Enhancements + Stat abusing.

No, again tell me 1 other build that betas is best. Just 1 more. there is only Caster TM maybe we can say Tech BM but its very weak, why Tech BM is weak? because it dont have Plasma bolt.

The Main reason of castermages problem is PLASMA BOLT, Technician + High tech, i can do 93 dmg with 29 energy + no requirements on skill :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D You kidding me ?!?!
2nd reason, thx for balance team there is only 1 smoke debuffer class and its one of the weakest. If there was TLM with smoke, Caster Mage will be UP. I knew the caster mage like 4-5 months ago but i tested it after TLM got nerfed. Because i knew with Smoker TLM it will be very weak.

If you check my youtube channel you will see i made a video with caster mage right after TLM got nerfed, because it was obvious that without a dominant smoker class Caster Mage will be good. Removing Smoke from TLM was also a mistake of balance team in my opinion. It changed the game to resistance based because of 2 strong class is got Malf.
quote:

See how simple Caster TM is yet effective? Yes, because of no requirements.

It will still be effective with requirements, you talk like all weps got str or supp requirement i just told you an item set with no str and supp requirement.
quote:

Items you mentioned - all but Spirit Pike are Limited Rares.

Yes cause everybody in game can buy Beta items right? a noob with full of varium can go to a npc shop and buy all beta items?!, Sipirit Pike is non varium non rare, Lagomorph Laser is on sale now if beta aux will be nerfed i will buy it ;), Charfade Blaster restock always.
quote:

Sorry if this breaks your build, if you abuse as well, which is pretty obvious with full Beta Gear equipped.. Another rant because your build is getting nerfed? Oh pity you.

Yeah it breaks my build(btw im not getting too much wins for atleast 1 month), but i dont care if i care i would quit long time ago, here is the list of builds i used and nerfed. Healloop TM-Str BH-5 focus BH-Supp TLM-Str TLM-Str CH-Dex/str CH, as you can see im totally cool with nerfs + Nerfs = Different OP build so its fun to find those builds.

So if they nerf Caster Mage, I DONT CARE, i only care the nerf on betas cause the only purpose of those weps is having no requirement. Put STR requirement on Plasma Bolt, Increase energy requirement of Plasma Bolt, Change Plasma rains requirement to Support or str. There is other ways to nerf the build.

Post edited. There is no need to troll anyone. ~Mecha



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 19:18:40)

And let me guess, that someone who showed you the quotes is me (via ND it seems). They originate from me and I thought sharing them won't do much harm as requirements or nerf to Betas was obvious and rather than make people feel like Team doesn't care, sharing with one person wouldn't kill nor the public. I fail to see your views on balance, but I can tell you majority of people want the nerf of Betas (requirements) while minority who uses them for abusive purpose does not.

Oh irony, at one time when Staff is quiet and doesn't share anything is bad but once you get info, it's even worse. Although this applies to minority of people.

By the way, if you got that quote from ND which I've sent to him, did you read it carefully? "Nothing's decided yet." <- that's what I can see. Also did you read RabbleFroth's posts recently? Team's ideal choice would be to remove requirements COMPLETELY from ALL weapons which is impossible for now due to stat abuse; until they find a way, requirements will stay. So the change is temporary for requirements until abuse is fixed and they can eliminate requirements. Also you understand one thing - these are Lvl 25 weapons, what kind of requirements do you plan on seeing? Dex, Tech will be covered easily by Caster TMs which you have as well, Str might go for Gun possibly but you can use your Charfade's then, and maybe for Brutalizer? Although it's Energy weapon so maybe.

quote:

in 3 years there is 1 usefull build with that weps and they gonna nerf the weps not build :/

Yes, because Lvl 34 using Lvl 25 weapons that cannot be replaced and competing with Lvl 34 items is right. Get your facts straight, Lvl 34 using Lvl 25 weapons is NOT right, especially if they compete with them as well.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/1/2012 19:44:32)

Finally added my post at the top of the page. 'v'

Any suggestions or questions?



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 1:53:28)

at level cap beta weapons aren't such an issue, but when levelling, anyone you face with full beta set is gonna beat you bar a miracle because they get a ridiculous amount of
stats, are usually enhanced, and are not forced to meet any requirements, unlike all the other non vars who are trying to level. just because the usual crybabies are crying
about a possible nerf doesn't mean the items are balanced, or that they shouldn't be nerfed after 3 years. Rabblefroth is balancing items. why should they be excluded?



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 2:13:42)

Pivotal has a great point that i think a lot of us eludes it's importance and understanding. What made us lvl34 what made us go all the way to the end, starting as a low level player. Many people post without acknowledging the low leveled non variums. Afterall, a varium 5 levels below another non-var has 50% of winning, more even. Beta weapon receiving requirement isn't much of a problem, it might even only be temporary, and lv34 TMs with lv25 weps isn't right if all they try to do is to get stat abusing items. TO make balance, a first step is to use your own level cap weapon, and not stat abuse. And no, 3 years-1 build? I have seen a lot of vids back in beta times where beta ruled. I think MrEmrold had a BH STR build that all focused on STR and beta weps into a formidable build with BL. Beta had its time, so did delta, although alpha was really weak...

And Betas are still special regardless of requirements, because they are RARE and gone 4eva. AND they show your early days in ED meaning you should be a dedicated player for a long time. In fact i don't see why Lv34s use those weapons. Have fun with other experimental builds, do not stay on a single 1 and try to keep it that way. [:)]



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 3:10:11)

Im not so Updated on this thread but Casters TM with beta weps are not Oped.
Im sure a simple 5 focus BH with 40 res total can beat them.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 11:23:13)

quote:

So if they nerf Caster Mage, I DONT CARE, i only care the nerf on betas cause the only purpose of those weps is having no requirement. Put STR requirement on Plasma Bolt, Increase energy requirement of Plasma Bolt, Change Plasma rains requirement to Support or str. There is other ways to nerf the build.


I would also like to nerf classes instead of weapons. But its so easy to abuse stats with betas (I for one abuse dex with beta gun..) so it would be just more and more nerfs on classes, instead of nerfing some weapons that is the reason of... "OP" builds/classes.

Nerfing the TM class would also cause damage on the low level players and non-var players... and people without betas.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 11:28:06)

Anyone?

The post at the top is recent.

Criticism, suggestions, questions?

General description: Uses the concept of agility for all stats, but is only an option if stat progressions will not be altered.



GiantBendyStraw -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 11:34:36)

I wanna know why there would be a strength requirement for a tech mage skill in the first place? that literally makes no sense, might as well go strength all the way if they're gonna make the tech mage turn into strength mage. tech mage isn't suppose to have very much strength, defeats the whole purpose
of the name "tech" mage.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 11:39:28)

@GiantBendyStraw
Just because something is called on their uses / power doesn't mean everything has to be based on what it's called . The main reason why skills such as Plasma Bolt have STR as a requirement because of it having a good progression and it gets synergy with Malfunction .

On the "Beta Caster TM discussion" :
Nah , the items don't make it OP but them able to spend on more points to TECH due to them having no requirement + lesser EP cost ( 1 Energy Booster + damage received should fix my -30+ EMP ) are what makes it too strong .



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 11:56:50)

quote:

@Remorse

35 EP drain at max lv?

That's way too much, and 20hp wouldn't even do a thing to Bms due to their high HP amount. Sure it will take down STR builds, but then they can do high HP build + max 'Nightmare'.
With a decent amount of DEF/RES and STR. Or they could even start TECH builds which is quite strong with Nightmare, allowing them to spam it through HP boosters. And also considering it's a drain, meaning you take out your opponents EP to yourself by 35. That's enough for a Mass/SC/SS. Asim would be best as you have suggested in the first one.


35ep drain is not that high.....

Nightmare is NOT an attack,
Think of it as a slightly weaker EMP (not imporved with anyskill) and it uses health to be cast rather then energy which we all know Blood mages get short of fast!
Becaue it uses hp instead of EP it also gives the bonus return of 25% of the drain(ONLY 25% and max it only gives you 9 energy back). because a HP sacrifise is worse then an ep one.

EMP is usaly as strong as max nightmare at lvl 3-4 AND has one less cooldown and uses energy rather then HP.

So the returning of 25% is completely justified.

Plus you are forgetting that most build WILL NOT be able to afford to get max nightmare without missing out on other stuff.


I fail to see how nightmare is not a balanced skill.






Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 12:04:23)

Mages, mages and more mages...

The changes to rage have spawned builds that take advantage of the classes with armor by using deadly aim or an unblockable/undeflectable bolt. The whole idea of these builds is to build rage quickly and do high damage attack on rage. Basically these builds are destroying any semblence of strategy. The builds are all the same. It's either a 140hp supercharge mage, a 140hp plasma bolt mage or a 125hp str blood mage. Class change is really the cause, but the changes to rage build have contributed greatly.

What's the balance tracker say about the 1v1 class population and the respective outcomes (Please just look at level 34 vs level 34 or the results will be flawed). The new passive for mercenaries is not really effective. There is an issue with the fact that fireball and zerker have the same requirement - dexterity. It would be way better if both plasma bolt and fireball had support requirements.

Could the balance team also look at the rage gain from damage done as defensive builds are non existant. Where is the strategy in spamming a few skills and stacking stats to abuse those skills.

While your at it how about higher support giving a real 1st strike advantage... Too many builds are getting away with little or no investment in support. Lift the base critical chance to 10% and drop the modifier from 7 support per 1% +- critical chance to 4 or 5. The support modifier for rage gain does nothing when you are facing these mages that can do enormous damage to quickly get rage (Oh that's right, that got lifted as well). On rage, it's not uncommon for them to do 40+ with gun, let alone one of those bolts that do well over 50...

I'm not asking for these classes to be nerfed, just take away or rectify the factors that make these so effective that the whole game population moves to thiose copycat builds. The changes to rage caused this and yes I can understand that cybers and tactical mercs can tank really well, but those classes had been nerfed...



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 12:07:54)

quote:

The new passive for mercenaries is not really effective.


True dat! I was Merc for a while back there and I told myself to stay as Merc for this new skill to come. Stayed as Merc for 2 days after this so called "buff" and then I gave up on Merc.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 12:12:17)

@ Goony
I agree,

I would prefer changes to rage to make it less of an abusive factor for attack spammers and more as simply a counter for high defence.


Possible changes:

Instead of 110% of defended attack.
It should be more like 80% of defended damgae with a bigger support bonus givieng a max of 120% and a minumum of 40% ( for those with low support, muhahha DIE STR BUILDS DIE!)
Therefore those with low support will get low rage and actualy have noticeable changes due to support, this would surely but a big dent in power builds, a dent greatly needed.
Note: the maximum diffrence is almost the same as before because support is more infulecning now, this would actuly make support worth investing in instead of being basically pointless unless you totoaly focus on it.

Secondly rage gain should be more like 30-40% of damage tacken not 25%.
Because damage tacken actuly disadvanatges tanks because they dont often get high dmage tacken and it also disadvanatges powerbuild because they take off alot of damage.


So overall for the average build with decent support and average defences the rage rate should be better if not the same as before as for tanks and power builds however they should feel a decrease which they greatly deserve.


ALSO: The above changes WILL imrpove the passive merc skill, since that power wont be the main source for constantrage anymore it means that average builds with this passive will have a much larger and considerably noticable rage rate.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 13:22:40)

May I join your conversation?

Agility directly helps players accumulate rage faster via dropping the total Defense and Resistance will in turn increase incoming damage, rage calculates this factor, giving high-healthed, low agility players the advantage in rage.

Instead I suggested that agility directly affects how much rage is gained, not the defense, that increases the rage rate.



Leprechaun -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 14:14:28)

They need to do something about this:
I just battled 2 variums and we were 2 non variums. Instant lost oh and my partner was afk too :DDD



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 14:25:07)

Depressed Void,
I think that the penalties are to drastic in this stat system. -5% connection chance is a big diffrerence, especially in a turn based PvP game.
So, I don't support it.
Sorry.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 14:35:04)

@Void
I like the idea, but I believe some of the percentages need to be worked out, most of them IMHO are way to high and game breaking.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 15:19:46)

Actually, Most of rage is gained through having an amount of your attack defended.

SO in a sence agailiaty makes rage slower....





Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/2/2012 16:10:39)

Fortune smiles upon the top of this page as well. :)

@Wootz,

-5% Connect for example, even -1% Connect is... no good? Wootz, I understand that you do not appreciate luck in this game, neither do I, but luck can stay if only we could remove it from our reach such as in the Support stat. More Support gives more luck. I do not think that we should be able to control luck for our own benefits over others in PvP, but we should be able to moderate our own statistics without having to develop builds that kill strategical players in 2 turns or so. Where is the fun when one person starts first, places the other into the Fetal Position and has their way with that person without them being able to resist (unless LUCK influences the outcome). This retribution suggestion of mine is nothing but a bandaid until 3 key wounds are healed: 1... stat requirements, that are surpassed easily by varium players and enhancements... 2... stat progressions, that give any given value of stat points a massive advantage... and 3... skill improving stats, that overkill stat's role in improving a build. These are all buried in the core, and until we can recover ourselves from this nasty mix, I am only here to advise temporary solutions to combat modern problems.

@Zeoth,
I will investigate my given values again for revision if necessary, thanks for the feedback.

@Remorse,

Yes, rage is vastly greater (by 4 times) in attacking rather than defending. I would say that agility benefits rage more than it handicaps rage though, because damage only increases as agility becomes proportionally lower. This is a perfect opportunity for STR players to add some of their stat points into health because of, decay, but also because of, the inequality between health and defenses when concerning time or costs. For example, 8 stat points will increase Defense and Resistance by 1 point, but 8 stat points will increase health by 16 points and agility's abilities will increase damage taken, endorsing the mechanics of rage to give the player faster rage, faster kills. If we switched out this basic capability of agility's for reducing rage, there would be considerably less STR players as having damage and health will cancel out a basic concept for an advantage, rage. That is my 2 cents on the agility relationship anyhow. Believe what you must.

quote:

R.A.G.E.

  • As an attacker, rage is gained at a rate of 110% of damage blocked (by the opponents defense/resistance) + 1% per 4 support you have over the defender, up to a maximum rate of 125%. If at a support disadvantage, the minimum rate is 95%.

  • As a defender, rage is gained at a rate of 25% of the damage taken, +0.25% per 4 support you have over the attacker, up to a maximum rate of 29%. If at a support disadvantage, the minimum rate is 21%.



    • R e t r i b u t i o n

    Retribution is designed to combat extremism when crowding stat points into one stat type for a specific massive advantage that often guarantees the user quick or easy wins without tactfulness (not very much strategy).

    After 120 stat points, then after every 10 stat points, penalties will add up.

    (health and energy are different)


    a-Health
    b-Energy
    c-Strength
    d-Dexterity
    e-Technology
    f-Support

    a-Agility
    b-Stamina
    c-Concentration
    d-Stability
    e-Vigilance
    f-Disdain


    Agility: Rage Rate

    Stamina: Skill Performance

    Concentration: Chance to Connect

    Stability: Chance to be Critical Hit

    Vigilance: Block Chance and Chance to be Stunned

    Disdain: Deflect Chance and Chance to be Deflected


    Agility:

    Health < 121
    None

    Health > 120
    Rage Rate - 11%

    Health > 130
    Rage Rate - 22%

    Health > 140
    Rage Rate - 33%

    Etc...


    Stamina:

    Energy < 121
    None

    Energy > 120
    Skill Effect - 11%

    Energy > 130
    Skill Effect - 22%

    Energy > 140
    Skill Effect - 33%

    Etc...


    Concentration:

    Strength < 121
    None

    Strength > 120
    Weapon Accuracy - 11%

    Strength > 130
    Weapon Accuracy - 22%

    Strength > 140
    Weapon Accuracy - 33%

    Etc...


    Stability:

    Dexterity < 121
    None

    Dexterity > 120
    Chance to be Critical Hit + 11%

    Dexterity > 130
    Chance to be Critical Hit + 22%

    Dexterity > 140
    Chance to be Critical Hit + 33%

    Etc...


    Perception:

    Technology < 121
    None

    Technology > 120
    Block Chance - 5.5%, Chance to be Stunned + 5.5%

    Technology > 130
    Block Chance - 11%, Chance to be Stunned + 11%

    Technology > 140
    Block Chance - 16.5%, Chance to be Stunned + 16.5%

    Etc...


    Disdain:

    Support < 121
    None

    Support > 120
    Deflect Chance - 5.5%, Chance to be Deflected + 5.5%

    Support > 130
    Deflect Chance - 11%, Chance to be Deflected + 11%

    Support > 140
    Deflect Chance - 16.5%, Chance to be Deflected + 16.5%

    Etc...



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