RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 18:33:32)

@Trans

But then players won't benefit connect every lv, leading to be maxed out for efficiency, plus the fact that CH will still be nerfed a bit since SA won't be maxed out as a CH, meaning best we can get out of SA is 2-3% connect. 10%connect and 10%block chance is good if they maybe raised the requirement level to make it more fair. Since that way, people cannot max SA so they will get 5% at lv5 for connect and block, leading to a more reliable amount of 'LUCK'. And if we raise the requirement cap, they cannot possibly afford 10%connect/block. Is that better? :3



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 18:38:42)

Raising requirements is a no, it's high enough already. 10% connect is just too much and it's available for all yet only one set of weapons from Lucky Event has them, not all. It's just a small boost and it keeps its original bonuses. CHs might not get most out of it but that's the point of training the skill, and they don't have to. At Lvl 5, they'd get 3% chance to connect which is still nice as it'd work with SC; key skill of their skill tree. Rememer about Dex builds and their skills, it'd be a bit too much. 10% chance to connect > 10% chance to resist stun, far more superior. Stun is limited to a skill or certain weapons and cannot be used all the time yet Strike can be used anytime. See my point now?



Sipping Cider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 18:43:40)

I agree with raynie days56. Mercs are an ok class if you have experience and good gear, but this boost to rage has not helped me win a single battle in 2v2. I rage more quickly, but only by a turn or so and end up finishing the battle in the same amount of turns it would take me to rage without the skill. Actually, I dont even rage in most battles due to the tankiness of mercs. In juggernaut I never rage even with tons of support and max adrenaline and when the battle lasts long enough for me to rage I tend to lose. Basically I have to kill my opponents fast or do defensive stuff that does not help my rage.

Now in 2v2, the skill has some credibility. There are a few battles were I get to rage were I would have not without adrenaline due to the killing speed in 2v2.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 19:05:35)

@Trans

I see your point there, very well then, 10%block chance 5%connect and Stun chance, but a problem is stun isn't significant at all, either we buff stun chance, or raise stun damage, because it's a CYBER ONLY skill that isn't doing much work here.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 19:14:21)

42 Support requirement raises already your Stun resistance unless opponent has higher Support as well then it's neglected AFAIK. It has a limited use, stun resistance, but it's a luck skill and combined with Support, it can save you from being stunned but you cannot see it unlike if you block, which is same as saving the roll before Stun and not getting stunned. It's same thing, but Stun hits (but Maul) whilst attack blocked is.. blocked. xD

I say it's fine, goes well with it and it's always small buff. With that, you can still have build that trains no Energy, let it be BH with Smoke, BL, maxed SA, and Lvl 3 Heal. EMP can kill it (Heal) but you have BL to rely on, high Dex for Defence and E Armor + E Shield for Resistance and you get HP back on attack, any that is. Connect would improve that as you cannot keep using Gun and Aux so it's always a bit of a buff while CHs would utilize it with SC which as I said too, is the key skill of their skill tree. I do see your point with Stun Resistance, but the example I gave is good enough to prove it's useful in a way. With Block it's even better as you're getting higher chances to prevent both.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 19:43:23)

A staff needs to post here and tell us the illogical excuse why they took away technician from the Blood mage just to refresh everyone's memories. When a Blood Mage used both reflex boost and technician was for protection and technician more so to boost tech at low levels to boost the Plasma Cannon, override malfunction, or boost robot when not at focus 5,when all attack actions was used up. In 2vs2 and 2vs1 when you basically go last and you get malfunctioned then smoked that is when both are used.

If they did not want a resistance based skill to improve with dex this is what they could have done gave them a skill like Guardian that improves both dex and tech but does not improve each other. Differences with using Guardian and reflex boost/technician combo are only one turn is wasted, does not boost each other, can be used in any battle mode, and wastes less energy where as Reflex boost improves Dex and dex improves Technician, Reflex Boost/Technician combo wastes two turns so the third you would have to heal and that is very inefficient, and wasting too much energy for two skills when the attack skills are more effective at high levels more so at max causing more energy usage. Last, it would have cleared a spot to return an improved Assimilation.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 19:58:04)

1. It was a waste of a turn to use Reflex and then Technician in any BM build.
2. Energy Shield gives way more energy protection than Technician ever will.
3. You are not getting a skill giving both dex and tech unless it gives you half the stats an ordinary buff would(40 Dex for Reflex, 20 dex and 20 tech for Guardian).
4. Possibly an increased energy cost for it as well because it is two skills in one and very versatile to use.
5. Assimilation is a very dangerous skill that does not need improved any and is easily capable of ruining and all builds out there. If anything, I wouldn't mind it ignoring a part of Reroute because it becomes next to pointless to use on TLM or TM unless they are already under the energy to use a skill.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 20:06:49)

I can say that I agree with ND here, as, on the exception of duration/cooldown (Technician lasts 1 more turn), Energy Shield was a better defence for Blood Mages. Technician will not promote Support builds like Energy Shield does when considering stat improvements. Technician is more opt for Strength/Dexterity builds, in the synergy of Blood Mages, those stats empower exploit tactics such as furthering Fireball or Supercharge.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 21:23:43)

It can't cost too much energy because the Blood Mage does not have energy regain only limiting to 20 then where would the protection be from smoke or malfunction especially if the malfunction takes away 42 tech points. If a Blood mage has a tech build that means they have low Dex. That new skill would no improve with no stats but improves two stats giving the Blood Mage a build variety which that what everyone wants, a Plasma cannon/Plasma Rain build or an Overload/Super charge Build and to make sure the strength abusers don't abuse it they could specify if your total strength stat is above 87 (20-24). They could do many things with it like limiting both the defense and and resistance capabilities above Level 5 be at the same level, a level 2, 3 or 4 difference or you could put 1 at level 10 the other at Level 1 costing 19 points of energy. Since it does not improve with any skill then it should scale at 4.5 points per level or max at level 9 scaling 5 points per level.

Assimilation would needed to be improve with tact mercs running around with max reroute and so that high level Blood Mages could punish the Blood Mages that miss behave.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 23:13:52)

@Trans

Fine with everything else, but just give Plasma grenade a buff to damage, i have tried 88TECH and on lv1 it's only 40 damage. That's like a lv1multi with only 30dex. Plasma grenade should therefore receive a damage buff to promote it;s use, rarely i see a Cyber with plasma grenade, or even using it.

And yes, it's been already 23 pages and the releases haven't released ANYTHING from our discussions. What happened to our STR BM solution and CH skill tree? [:@]



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 23:24:37)

Plasma Grenade:Inflicts energy damage with a 30% base chance to stun the enemy.

and this is why they will not give it more damage

Shadow Arts: Passively increases your block chance and Stun Grenade stun chance.

Plus if you use malfunction you will get greater damage.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/9/2012 23:42:21)


I meant just a small buff, because at 88TECH, 40dmge is just way too low, considering you mightn't even stun at all. And may i mention that Malf can be easily killed by bot or ES/Technician.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 0:20:47)

Let's compare stun skills of all new classes:

Overload: Fires a lightning bolt with a 30% base chance to stun. Improves with dexterity.
· Energy Required:
o Level 1: 14
o Level 2: 16
o Level 3: 18
o Level 4: 20
o Level 5: 22
o Level 6: 24
o Level 7: 26
o Level 8: 28
o Level 9: 30
o Level 10: 32
· Weapon Required: Staff
· Stat Required: 19 Technology (at level 1)
· Level Required: 2
· Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage at 22 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after)
· Warm Up: 0
· Cool Down: 2

Plasma Grenade:Inflicts energydamage with a 30% base chance to stun the enemy.
· Energy Required:
o Level 1: 16
o Level 2: 18
o Level 3: 20
o Level 4: 22
o Level 5: 24
o Level 6: 26
o Level 7: 28
o Level 8: 30
o Level 9: 32
o Level 10: 34
· Weapon Required: None
· Stat Required: None
· Level Required: 10
· Improves With: Technology
· Warm Up: 0
· Cool Down: 2
Stun Grenade:Inflicts physical damage with a 30% base chance to stun the enemy.
· Energy Required:
o Level 1: 16
o Level 2: 18
o Level 3: 20
o Level 4: 22
o Level 5: 24
o Level 6: 26
o Level 7: 28
o Level 8: 30
o Level 9: 32
o Level 10: 34
· Weapon Required: None
· Stat Required: None
· Level Required: 5
· Improves With: Dexterity (+1 damage at 26 Dexterity; +1 damage per 4 Dexterity after)
· Warm Up: 0
· Cool Down: 2

So tell us which ones would take more stats to equal 40 damage with the skill at max.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 0:39:08)

@Hun kingq

My aim/point is to engage Cyber Hunters to use Plasma grenade, not compare each stun ability, furthermore, the reason why Cybers don't use PG as much is because it's like a gamble, you stun=you win, you don't stun=you lose. Each stun ability is mostly like a last minute-changing tactic to turn the tables. PG isn't often used due our PA consuming 10 skill pts, and our static which has to be maxed out since it was nerfed to 29%.

When CHs skill tree change as we discussed, i think many would have left-over pts to train into PG, but PG turns off people due it's damage amount. Overload and SG is improved by dex, hence it can easily be improved, whereas TECH is less used when up against DEX. Unless you have a CH TECH build which won't work without some ENH and a robot(preferably VARIUM bots).

PG is definitely a great skill, it just needs a little buff to attract some more players to it. When i say small buff i mean maybe improving with another stat, or a little buff to damage/lowered EP consumption. If this idea gets turned down, i am fine with that, only a suggestion since PG is a Cyber-Unique skill that should be used when we get our skill trees changed. [:)]



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 0:47:52)

Overload requieres 12 energy at lvl 1



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 4:28:48)

Stun's higher damage was discussed. It deals lower damage due to penality Stun chance gives. After all, you can get free turn to make up for it + deal more without taking any or not stun and deal less damage. Hence why SA's Stun resistance is good here. If you train it more then you'll get more damage but obviously not as much as pure damaging skill. If you don't then tough, it's your choice as I keep mine at Lvl 1 (Overload) and it deals low damage as well, usually in 10s range at most. That is, with about 100 Dex here, Arevero.
You don't have to invest in Stun either, it's a novelty skill and isn't as useful at higher Levels where damage counts. I use mine at last resort, aka, when I'm about to die and if I stun, I might kill them on the next turn. Was the case few times and it worked!

Guardian for Dex and Tech buff? Yes! Give it 1 turn duration and 2 different stats to improve it then I'm fine with it. Or rather, it'd be useless unless boost was to be VERY small when at Lvl 1 + improved by different stats perhaps.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 5:07:29)

Breaking News! (Don't break me :O)

I gots an idea :3

TO SOLVE ENHANCEMENTS!

Double the number of stats you gain during LV-Up. You read that right. And then, adjust Focus and Agility to appropriate levels as well. This way, base Stats will far outnumber the Enhancements, rendering them not as... required, shall we say.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 5:59:38)

Arevero, The real problem lies in the stat progression of dex and tech and many times I mentioned they should be looked at and when they make those adjustments to those two stats then you will see that buff you are looking for as well as a buff to Plasma Rain.

raymanpwner, Those lists are straight from epic wiki.

Trans, I came up with Guardian so awhile back so that Assimilation could be returned, that I was tired of wasting all that energy to waste two turns to increase my Dex/tech when both are affected or when my partner was affected. When I used Technician is was to boost tech at low levels so I could have more stats in dex, strength, health or energy as well as negate the effects of malfunction. Plus when I used technician against a strength abusing merc class with an energy primary, I blocked. Players screamed because it does 2 skills in one turn it would make the Blood mage overpowered which they were not thinking clearly in that if it the program code was properly done it would not and it can be adjusted without affecting an other class. So strength and support improves it but remember they could put a strength cap cut off so that strength abusers can't ruin it for the whole class.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 7:43:36)

I rest my case guys, I see your reasoning, but i only hope after CH nerf/buff(even if it gets it...) that CHs will start using PG. Thanks for the advices.

@drinde

That will give players 264 base stats at lv34 :O

That is quite extreme, but i suppose it solves the ENH problem, i mean i'm fine with the idea, but how will we refund the players who has enhanced items...

Refund by using a system/code that can give the var/cred you have spent and give it back to you?

Either way refunding is problem, ENH has a lot of solutions, but not letting your original VAR ENH be wasted is the problem.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 8:54:09)

Heh. They could just stop everyone from getting Enhances starting immediately, then everyone with Enhances would be able to be "supreme" for 2 months, before the status sets in. 2 Months of being so powerful is way more than enough, IMO.

After all, the idea of slowly reducing ENH slots wasn't given a reply. <.<



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 10:27:45)

Rabble spoke once in a topic about quadrupling stats (his opinon, not his own thread) but unfortunatelly I cannot really find it now..
It's a good way, but enhancements would fall in value which would lead to refunds - why get 8 enhancement slots if you get so every level? It'd require changes to agility, focus, etc as well which was mentioned but I guess this ain't a way to solve it.

What I can say is that Rabble plans to do something about enhancements after the Restatting weapons as it's possible now to set power level of items, and they can get rebalanced. Good solution would be enhancements affecting your stats only, not the skills. So Dex + Tech would add damage for Bots (Tech), Res/Def but NOT affect the skills so they would NOT grow in power unless you use your own stats; ones you get when you level up. Advantage is much smaller, you get still bonuses for it but not a major advantage. Anyone else has opinion on this? It could really solve problem of enhancements, at least abusive side of it on skills - we've seen examples of them in the past and do now.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 10:31:58)

Even I find my idea of doubling extreme, but QUADRUPALING? :O

Trans, if 1 LV = 8 Stats, you pay to get +1 LV Advantage. So, +32 ENH, +4 LVs.

Isn't it common to see higher levels PWN lowers? :3



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 10:34:32)

Yeah, quadrupling was a bit.. big. o_e
I did see your point with doubling and the example you've given which is good but many players would get cheated on it - they paid for something else and they lost half of what they paid for. I wouldn't mind as much but do you see my point? It's not me who just counts so yeah..

What do you think about my idea though? Abuse could be gone on skills so that's a good point of it. :3



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 10:36:22)

It's pretty sound, in itself, but TANKs and STR-Abusers will reign supreme.

ED Y U BALANCE SO HARD? :P



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/10/2012 10:41:40)

Well no different to now. They won't be able to dish out as much damage as they do now nor we will be able to which balances out as no abuse, same damage and when we look at Str abuse and Rage - it's hard to protect against Str BMs and Tech TMs so they'd get lower damage on skills. If we Tank through them, they get Rage a lot quicker while we fall behind in damage and are put on even bigger disadvantage. Damage difference between builds would cancel each other out, abuse would be gone as explained in previous sentence and Rage would be more effective against Tanks, not favouring abuse, and defensive skills will be a bit more efficient to use.
Damage difference would be small, most enhancements you can get is 40 with Beta gear which is 10 damage in most of the skills. Count in normal players so that's maybe about 32 points = ~8 damage less on skills only. If you use a lot less skills or don't rely just on them, the change would barely affect you yet help you and others.

Yeah, true that. :P



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