RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/11/2012 23:03:26)

@John

2 Disagreements--

1. No EMP will be given to any BMs, totally going a bit far now, EMP is strictly Hunter skill, just as assimilation is strictly mage. Hunters are already a great balanced class that might need a few twicks, but I think if we give BMS EMP, it ruins about 25% of being a Hunter. Just doesn't seem right for me.


2. SC stacking with BL, are u serious??? It already gives a whopping 30% HP regain, plus BL it will go about 50%, considering it can do rage takeaway/enough damage above 40. Sure it will give BMS a chance for another build, but then it will just become OP again.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/11/2012 23:21:50)

Super Charge does not do rage take away and you can't rage it either but the next move afterwards rages.



ngshuyi94 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/11/2012 23:23:36)

Lol, no wonder they say that they wanna nerf the TM a little bit.

Just met ICEN (good player) in a 2vs2 battle and he got a lv 1 plasma bolt that does 73 damage, requiring only 11 energy. Also, his resistance was 46-56. Something that the stats progression on the wiki does not even have. Thats how crazy it is.


SS after he got malfed

My resistance was a decent 23-28 + 11 + 1 and he still managed to get a 36 damage on me (if i remember correctly) with just 11 energy.

This is not complaining, just showing the power of this kinda builds and that something gotta be done (probably this friday, as they said in the DNs).



Minus123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/11/2012 23:59:54)

Ya, he was the first to come up with the build i believe. The first day he had that build, i lost like 20 times to him, and by luck i kept being on the other team :/

And ya, it's crazy, I just saw a lvl 32 or 33, with 89 damage on max plasma i think. (I don't remember the exact damage) Completely destroyed me in 2 v 2. (She had rain also, but i 4get the damage and level)



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 0:02:44)

@Hun

sorry, misread it, no rage, but 20% RES ignoring is still quite a bit powerful considering BMs can reflex boost, hence if its stacked SS would pwn in most 1v1 matches. BL is already a healing passive, added to SS it could heal up to 20hp.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 0:18:16)

ngshuyi94, You noticed the weapons he has all Beta, all 10 enhancements no requirements that is how he is able to have high tech high energy and good health. Now does everyone see why weapons need the proper requirement placement.

Arevero, It happens but I tested it before I post and nope Blood mages and tech mages can't rage Super Charge. can't remember if Massacre can be raged or if surgical strike can be raged but if those two can and Super Charge can't it is unfair.

Here is the three ultimate skills and the three multis from the players handbook which it needs to be updated with the new weapons and classes take a look at the Damage per level and how each one improves with each stat and when it starts improving are they really balanced or an illusion of balance?

Super Charge SKILL REQUIRES A STAFF
Damage per level
30-38, 33-41, 36-44,
39-47, 42-50, 45-53,
48-56, 51-59, 54-62,
57-65
Improves with Dexterity +1 damage at 23 Dexterity; +1 damage per 5 Dexterity after

Surgical Strike SKILL REQUIRES DEX 20 +2 DEX/LEVEL
Damage per level
33-39, 36-42, 39-45,
42-48, 45-51, 48-54,
51-57, 54-60, 57-63,
60-66
Improves with Technology +1 damage at 21 Technology; +1 damage per 5 Technology after

Massacre SKILL REQUIRES A WRIST BLADEs D
Damage per level uration
86, 92, 98, 104, 110,
116, 122, 128, 134,
140%
Improves with Strength

Multi-Shot
Multi-
Damage per level
25, 28, 31, 34, 36, 38,
40, 41, 42, 43
Improves with Dexterity +1 damage per 4 Dexterity

Artillery Strike SKILL REQUIRES DEX 24 +2 DEX/LEVEL
Multi
Damage per level
25, 28, 31, 34, 36, 38,
40, 42, 44, 46
Improves with Support +1 at 22 then +1 damage per 4 Support after

Plasma Rain SKILL REQUIRES A STAFF
Multi
Damage per level
24, 27, 30, 33, 35,
37, 39, 41, 43, 45
Improves with Technology +1 damage at 28 Technology; +1 damage per 4 Technology after



ngshuyi94 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 0:23:40)

^ The problem is not with the beta weapons actually.

There are also other weapons which can make a perfect caster build like the recent varium energy aux. *COUGH*

The problem is with the build, like why plasma bolt was changed to 29 energy at max? Doesn't make sense to me since its also obvious that mages have reroute, which could cause a lot of problems. Also, they scale that skill to improve with level, if im not wrong. Something which should also be looked upon.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 0:24:44)

Plasma rain dont requieres a staff.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 0:40:57)

raymanpwner, I know that I left it as it is from the players hand book to show that it needs to be updated.

ngshuyi94, but to get tech as high as that one player does with high health and energy is impossible I tried it with weapons with the highest tech modifiers due to the weapon requirements only the swords and staffs that I have come with 10 enhancements, no other weapon, just imagine he was wear founders armor as well that would be 40 total enhancement slots he could put at tech so with the stat modifiers with ease he could get at least 140 (40-48) tech with high health and energy but can players finally see how important proper weapon requirement placement is now on all weapons from primary to aux in all class to really begin the balance process. Going to epic wiki to show you the comparison I noticed they increase the Damage of the Beta Bazooka (Level 25) from 28 then 29 then 30 and now 34 so with each update they are increasing the damage of Beta weapons.

Lagomorph Laser
Weapon Details
Damage Type: Energy
Equipment Type: Auxiliary
Damage: 39
Enhancement Slots: 8
Stat Modifiers
Strength: 0
Dexterity: +8
Technology: +7
Support: 0
Requirements
Level Required: 34
Strength required: 0
Dexterity required: 38
Technology required: 36
Support required: 0

Beta Bazooka (Level 25)
Weapon Details
Damage Type: Energy
Equipment Type: Auxiliary
Damage: 34
Enhancement Slots: 10
Stat Modifiers
Strength: 0
Dexterity: +7
Technology: +8
Support: 0
Requirements
Level Required: 25
Strength required: 0
Dexterity required: 0
Technology required: 0
Support required: 0



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 3:44:29)

@ngshuyi94
True that, but you're looking at at least 30-50 stats less even after you meet requirements. And it's weapon most likely appropriate to your Level and Caden's Wrath which has Str requirement of 37 unlike 19 Str which is already 18 stat difference! Make similar on Dex and Support and they will be looking at slightly bigger difference, as above. Hence why Hun IS right with Betas but they will get changed, aka, requirements so it's matter of time now.

I still think my idea is best for enhancements to nerf them - abusive build probably - but still make them useful (as well as close the gap):
quote:

What I can say is that Rabble plans to do something about enhancements after the Restatting weapons as it's possible now to set power level of items, and they can get rebalanced. Good solution would be enhancements affecting your stats only, not the skills. So Dex + Tech would add damage for Bots (Tech), Res/Def but NOT affect the skills so they would NOT grow in power unless you use your own stats; ones you get when you level up. Advantage is much smaller, you get still bonuses for it but not a major advantage. Anyone else has opinion on this? It could really solve problem of enhancements, at least abusive side of it on skills - we've seen examples of them in the past and do now.

Well no different to now. They won't be able to dish out as much damage as they do now nor we will be able to which balances out as no abuse, same damage and when we look at Str abuse and Rage - it's hard to protect against Str BMs and Tech TMs so they'd get lower damage on skills. If we Tank through them, they get Rage a lot quicker while we fall behind in damage and are put on even bigger disadvantage. Damage difference between builds would cancel each other out, abuse would be gone as explained in previous sentence and Rage would be more effective against Tanks, not favouring abuse, and defensive skills will be a bit more efficient to use.
Damage difference would be small, most enhancements you can get is 40 with Beta gear which is 10 damage in most of the skills. Count in normal players so that's maybe about 32 points = ~8 damage less on skills only. If you use a lot less skills or don't rely just on them, the change would barely affect you yet help you and others.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 5:49:14)

Either Rage needs to be improved, or Tanking needs a counter.

I fail to see how one is supposed to kill an opponent with 40+ DEF and RES without resorting to a mindless STR or Burst Build.

I believe that RAGE should focus more on how much DEF/RES your opponent has, instead of the DIFFERENCE between yours and his.

Counting the blasted passive armors.

Either that, or do this:

DEF/RES - 27 Base - 95% HP
DEF/RES - 30 Base - 90% HP
DEF/RES - 34 Base - 80% HP
DEF/RES - 38 Base - 65% HP

This also solves them Tech Tanks :O



Frost Snake -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 5:55:34)

or you could change the 4+ stats per level to 2+ so then say a tm has 100 tech now it would go down to 50 then that makes it harder for people to spam tech/str/dex/sup or anything at that :p



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 5:58:08)

Enhancements become more OP than ever.



Frost Snake -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 6:10:41)

true i dont think there is very much they can do to balance out ed completley.

the only thing they could really do is nerf the really op class's like tm which they are doing and bm.(bit ironic that both the mage's are op) like uhm take away zerk and replace it with say i dunno a skill like say malf? hmm that would make it more op ok ill leave this one :p ima just stick with suggesting weapon's and bots/armour's



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 6:15:32)

Nah, Malf isn't needed as Intimidate fits them better and can be quite decent if used wisely. We already suggested Berzerker -> Assimilate which is good enough, and there is change to BMs possibly on Friday (if they manage to fit whole release + TM nerf AND add BM as well) but if not then next week definitely. Who knows, maybe this will get implemented. ;)
Change to enhancements is hard, taking them out is not a way and making them weaker is also quite hard as there's very little you can do about it..



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 6:17:15)

quote:

We already suggested Berzerker -> Assimilate which is good enough


ALL ME! ALL ME! ALL ME! :P

Hows the Tank Slayer idea?



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 6:22:01)

Shhh, but WE agreed to it! [8D]
Hmm, current rage works fine against Tanks but poorly against Glass Cannon builds like BMs for example. Remorse had good idea of making it more Support based as it should and I have quote of it from PM and should be somewhere here in this topic so I'm going to just quote it:
quote:

Instead of 110% of defended attack.
It should be more like 80% of defended damgae with a bigger support bonus givieng a max of 120% and a minumum of 40% ( for those with low support, muhahha DIE STR BUILDS DIE!)
Therefore those with low support will get low rage and actualy have noticeable changes due to support, this would surely but a big dent in power builds, a dent greatly needed.
Note: the maximum diffrence is almost the same as before because support is more infulecning now, this would actuly make support worth investing in instead of being basically pointless unless you totoaly focus on it.

Secondly rage gain should be more like 30-40% of damage tacken not 25%.
Because damage tacken actuly disadvanatges tanks because they dont often get high dmage tacken and it also disadvanatges powerbuild because they take off alot of damage.


So overall for the average build with decent support and average defences the rage rate should be better if not the same as before as for tanks and power builds however they should feel a decrease which they greatly deserve.


ALSO: The above changes WILL imrpove the passive merc skill, since that power wont be the main source for constantrage anymore it means that average builds with this passive will have a much larger and considerably noticable rage rate.

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20211607



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 7:22:40)

So far the only counter to tank or HIGH DEF/RES builds is RAGE. I have hit about 36dmg on 37-45DEF i think, so it was quite a lot against that much Defense. Rage doesn't need that MUCH of a buff, we just need more solutions against Tanks. A rage can turn the tables of a whole battle, or make it close by 1hp. I have been beaten/defeated a lot by rage, and i think it needs no further buffs or changes. Main priority is the way to gain more rage.

I think it should be based only on damage OUTPUT, say if u do 5-8 dmg, you will earn rage faster than 18-25dmg. Damage INPUT should not count due to STR, their DEF/RES is mainly low and decent, meaning that they will hit high dmg and even higher due to rage gain-rate.




Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:10:42)

@Trans, you forgot the Ist paragraph in Remoses post when you quoted ;)

And your suggestion o.O

As for Blood Mages getting assimilation I don't agree, heres why!

Basically, the synergy between strength, bloodlust and rage won't be removed with assimilation and removing bezerker will probably just lead to them training plasma cannon or lightning bolt. The issue with strength bloodmages is the fireball, deadly aim, bloodlust combination. Removing bezerker for assimilation is not a good idea. If we have agreed to this change can you please say who the we you are talking about?

As far as tanks go and nerfing them more, can the consequences for mercenaries be factored into the discussion as I for one am sick of being on the receiving end of nerfs that were aimed at other classes...



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:14:42)

What if we replaced Fireball with Assimilate?

It was one of the base ideas I had, but was ignored :P

Probably because they want BMs to get a new skill that stays. <.<



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:29:42)

^Your probably right, that would be like removing malfunction from mages... Not gunna happen!

If you compare blood mages to mercenaries and bounty hunters! What is it that makes the mages str builds more reliable,? It's the combination of unblockables and bloodlust. Same reason that massacre/smoke str builds work well for bounty hunters it's the unblockable and lowered chance to be blocked. Try using a mercenary with the same str, health and energy as a blood mage or bounty hunter... I'll let you guess who will win in the main!

Again with the tech mages, it's mainly a combination of dexterity or technology and unblocables... Why can't a plasma bolt or fireball be deflected or dodged? Idk...



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:41:16)

Ah my bad, Goony, it seemed similar. XD But we think similar and it's good idea so yay. :3

Let's see how Devs deal with BMs this Friday or next. Maybe they find a way without removing anything and make class more fun. Like Fireball improving with Support like others said, Dex can work as well as it's just that, Overload and SC but limited Energy is what would keep it fine, Tech is a nono, and Str is meh. It'd just destroy Str builds and limit slightly to Berzerker, Intimidate, DA could help them with Str, and BL would be there.
So Support or Dex works fine for Fireball, keep Berzerker and done. 2 solutions to Str abuse and I like both tbh.. XD



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:54:10)

How about Plasma Bolt and Fireball improves with... Nothing!

The skills could be like the change to field medic so that the skill only improves with level, kinda like what Depressed Void was aluding too by detatching the improvement link to statistics altogether... Much easier to balance ;)



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 10:59:01)

^

LeGaspe.

What an idea! I love it :D



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (4/12/2012 12:09:10)

Why Skills Should Not Improve by Stats

A small document created to show the dangers to balance in a relationship between stat and skill.

It is recent so you can reply here or in that thread.

Thanks for your time.



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