RE: Glass Cannons (Full Version)

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MrBones -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/19/2012 7:46:42)

@TurkishIncubus:
Hi buddy. Been a long time since I saw you in game!

I totally understand what you are saying. In fact, I think most people understand your point. Because we are not part of the extreme competing pool of players doesn't mean we don't know how the game works. The only doubt I have is are you getting the point made by the others ??

Win ratio, win streaks, win total amount, speed.... it's all good but where is the fun in that ? I understand you are entitled to compete in any way you want but the problem is that a minority of players makes it very difficult for a majority of players to have fun.

I am not sure where I myself stand on the issue but it is worth questionning.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 10:59:15)

Either the requirements need to be removed off the skills or lowered.

Energy shield is really of no use to the Blood Mage for one all it does is increase resistance and does not protect very well so when a Blood Mage gets malfunctioned then there goes the tech based skills and equipment.

Reflex boost is not that great because at max a high level artillery strike goes through it as it was not there and helps only improves two skills Overload and Super Charge. I had high dex one time and max overload, max super charge, max reflex boost I tried max over load and max super charge with and without reflex boost and I seen no difference in damage.

The Blood Mage has nothing to affect any of the other classes multis, that is including energy stealing skills where as the merc classes have at least Atom smasher so as the supposedly weak left behind merc class everyone is calling for improvements at 26-32 tech they can still get 40 plus damage with bunker buster where when my tech was lowered to 30-36 with malfunction on a player with just 21-26 tech (resistance) I only got 37 damage with Plasma Cannon. With goo support and good amount of tech the merc class have three powerful strikes, Aux, Bunker Buster, Artillery strike.

The merc class is not weak and left behind it is the players that made it weak by not only copying builds and basically using the same type of weapons but are the ones that left it behind for the new classes looking for fast and easy kills. I don't know if players that plays the tact merc are just going into 2vs2 with just Poison build on purpose with no Artillery strike to try and trick the staff into thinking the tact merc class needs to be rebuffed then after it happens start using Artillery strike again in 2vs2 or they have no idea what they are doing by listening to inexperience top level players.

The Cyber Hunters in 2vs2 I am starting to see high level malfunction with no multi in 2vs2, you have 2 players across from you are you just going to strike them to death? Or they have EMP but they don't use it on the person they know that could kill them but next match they are will to use it on me.

Well to balance especially for 2vs2 a player should only be allowed to be EMP or Atom smashed only once during the match since both can take 20 plus energy since the Blood Mage has no energy regain.

Plasma Rain needs to be improved because it does not seem right when I have high tech then my partner and the damage on both of us is exactly 47 critical damage then I only get 37 damage on the same tech mage with less tech but get 51 critical damage on a Player with higher tech or the Blood Mage needs a new multi skill that truly defines it is an evolved class.

The Blood Mage needs better defensive and resistance skills that helps protect from skill damage but also weapons damage which helps improves the skills since we have no debuff skills or energy stealing skills that would either improve damage or take away energy without giving energy back.

The only passive skill the Blood Mage has that improves only one weapon the sidearm should either have the requirement lowered or removed because we stil have requirement on weapons that limits us fro going to high on any stats. Field Commander improves strength so they get high primary and sidearm damage, it may cost energy, but it has no stat requirement.

The reason I complain about the Blood Mage class is because certain skills need to be improved. The Blood Mage either has to have super high tech or super high strength for the skills to be effective because we have nothing to help improve the damage.

They keep talking about new ultimate skills for the new classes but they never say what they are or what they will be so is there new ultimate skills coming or they just trying to get our hopes up?




Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 11:45:00)

hmm talking bout 2v2 again eh hun king.ok gonna lay out some facts because i did 130 2v2 yesterday as a support tlm. ok basically this build works but u need a lot of boosters compared to a poison tank build. tested it first hand and i find a poison tank build to be more effective and cost efficient(u save credits because u do not need the constant usage of energy boosters) than a support build. most people hate using boosters and hate to depend on them every time u get emped/atom/assimilate(sometimes). in 2v2 u don't just get atomed/emped/assimilated once but some times u get emped twice, atom+ emp, ect ect. An energy hungry class would not do well in 2v2 without boosters.caster mage,blood mages and support tlms are energy hungry classes.but notice mages and blood mages get way more % in 2v2 than a support tlm. some caster bm/mages do not even use boosters and the still can get 80%+ now this is a problem as most support tlm can barely get 80% if they use booster without booster i do not think the support tlm can even get 80% win rate. mages/caster bm can get 90%+ in 2v2 if they use booster.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 12:39:20)

Besides Hun, you always go about BMs and now brought up defensive capabilities of BMs.
I made a Support-Tank build quite a while ago, Primary+Gun are at about 15-19 damage and Aux is at 19-24 IIRC, while having a Tank build. With P Armor, you can get a lot out of Energy Shield with that build - gives about +30 Res at Lvl 3 - and Matrix doesn't need to be trained so you have space for high DA, maxed BL, Lvl 3 Heal in case you need it, and at Lvl 34 it leaves you with maybe 5-7 Skill points free and you can put them anywhere - perhaps Matrix, or better E Shield, or maybe some strategical skill like Intimidate which improves with Support.
Remember that all EP you will need is E Shield - 15 Energy at Lvl 3, 18 Energy for Lvl 5 Intimidate (example) and 21 Energy for Heal so that's 55 Energy. If you get EMP'd, that's probably Heal gone IF you use Intimidate + E Shield but you can use E Shield and Intimidate only and get HP back from BL + Tank a lot with good defences.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 16:36:56)

Luna_moonraider, I am looking at the leader board now and there is quite a few Tact mers on 2vs2 with +85% and they are support builds where as a Blood mage was at the top the other day with only 76%. Last time I checked Tact mercs have reroute, do they not? Getting Emp multiple times, Atom smashed multiple times or the combo of multiple energy stealing attacks on the same player has to change. With Assmilation since it gives damage you get more energy back then you take with reroute. So let us keep watching the 2vs2 leader boards for the +90% Blood mage I have not seen it yet.

With shadow arts the chance of blocking between the classes is the most unbalance thing in the game.

Trans, you may get a lot out of energy shield with that build but all you get is resistance so if you have max Plasma cannon and max Plasma Rain you get malfunctioned does Energy shield take away the effect on tech where those two skills does not look like a joke, no. Does the Blood Mage have something to affect support, tech, or Dex to affect the other classes multis, no, Energy steal counts as well. That build may be effective in 1vs1 but in other modes it is not especially if a player has Azrael's borg. I bring up all aspects of the Blood Mage, that class has a lot more disadvantages then any other class, that class has to choose between power and defense, whether to use an offensive skill or not. Once the Blood Mage energy is gone the skills are useless so unless you have enough power behind your Aux and sidearm and don't get blocked you will loose the battle. Why should the Blood Mage have to settle for any sub par skill? A bounty Hunter was malfunctioned he put on a Level 5 energy shield I shot him with the stun Blaster got 37 critical damage. The Blood mage has not become a unique evolved class but a mutant class that been slapped together, things been taken away and things that don't benefit that class has been added on. They gave the lame excuse that Reflex boost combined with technician would make that class over powered and that is why they took away technician. I used max reflex boost then max technician I did not increase the power of the sidearm, the power of the Aux, and I still got blocked with regular strikes and berzerker attack while they struck me and still got 35+ damage as if either was not there.

The players that play the Blood Mage can't just sit back and accept what we got when we all know certain skills of that class needs improvement for all battle modes not just 1vs1. The staff knows the Blood mage needs improvement but they keep side stepping. Players want to see the Blood Mage have a variety of builds instead of seeing the same build over and over again to not only give the game variety but to balance things out but how can that happen if the staff keeps side stepping. For staff to see how the Blood mage is really doing in 2vs2 they have to become Blood Mages and step into that battle mode using every offensive skill possible with the updated weapons that has requirements but I all 2vs2 in the past week not a single staff.



zion -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/19/2012 18:19:07)

Really a pretty simple problem with BM - I speak from experience...
If you want to do anything but npc, your only chance is a STR abuse build for quick wins/losses...at least as a non-var.
Why? Because it doesn't have an OP passive shield like the other classes and you would need to devote all stats to defenses for a defensive build. With no STR, bloodlust, DA, fireball, and zerker are all worthless. This is not a copycat issue, this is an issue of balance and how the devs created this Frankenstein skill tree...
--noiz



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 18:39:58)

I find this hilarious. People been talkin for weeks about how op bloodmages are, and we got 1 guy complaining that they are weak and useless. Kinda wierd. :p



Retrosaur -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/19/2012 20:09:41)

@gk365
SO, essentially what you're saying is that because the two glass cannon classes have limited survivability, they are forced to rely on max damage builds.....makes sense.

I agree with you all, that strategy needs to come first, but for BM's, tanking is simply not an option. I have not yet seen a "normal" BM



Stabilis -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/19/2012 20:30:46)

I find problems knowing that each class does not have 1 offensive passive and a defensive passive.

BH: Offensive, Defensive - Cleared

TM: Offensive, Defensive - Cleared

M: Defensive - Denied

CH: Defensive, Defensive - Denied

BM: Offensive, Offensive - Denied

TacM: Defensive, Defensive - Denied

This is not the only imbalance though, I still say that allowing skills to improve with stats is a huge issue.



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 21:19:07)

I think deflection rate should be lowered since technology moves affect both deflection(basic unblockables) and bot dmg making it not as equal to smoke as it once was



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/19/2012 23:34:57)

@hun

quote:

I am looking at the leader board now and there is quite a few Tact mers on 2vs2 with +85% and they are support builds where as a Blood mage was at the top the other day with only 76%. Last time I checked Tact mercs have reroute, do they not? Getting Emp multiple times, Atom smashed multiple times or the combo of multiple energy stealing attacks on the same player has to change. With Assmilation since it gives damage you get more energy back then you take with reroute. So let us keep watching the 2vs2 leader boards for the +90% Blood mage I have not seen it yet.

ever heard of boosters and crit, good partners and luck. a bm and mage do not even need those to get 80%++ and with boosters and crit, good partners and luck mages and bm could get 90%++. the blood mage was using a str build in 2v2 using a str build means fast kill but bad %. yes we have reroute but emp kills us and we cant play high hp high energy and high tech builds in 2v2 because 1) only skill which improves with tech is surgical strike,2) we spam support not tech. more tech= deflect= support tlm 2nd source of dmg, the zooka becoming unreliable, 3)support=not oped stat anymore. if support still has deflect then i would say support tlm are way better than caster bm/tm.caster bm/tm have like 100+ energy they can have that much energy because tech improves their resistance and their dmging skills if tlm use high hp and high energy build they would be left to have low resistance or low defenses.

quote:

I all 2vs2 in the past week not a single staff.

well mos and devs rarely do 2v2 so do not even bother hoping to see them in a 2v2 match because it is rare and only happens like once per epicduel phase.



Remorse -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 2:35:00)

Glass cannons (Powerbuilds in my explanations) are a major issue on my eyes.


They are builds that can only be properly tacken down via luck or power.

Which means it makes luck inflenece worse and forces everyone else to have extreme power.

Ruining startegy builds and enjpyment in the game.

I dont see how people get enjoyment from killing people quickly and effortlessly.

I would much rather a well thought out match with heavy strategy.

The game needs to reverse this otherwise it will be a downward slope to being a pointless game IMO.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 4:20:26)

glass cannon builds are basically the best build a non var can use before changing into a 5 focus tank. a glass cannon build is basically the only working build a non varium can use because if a non var uses a 5 focus build without a bot/without full/partial enhancements they will get bashed up like a rag doll in 2v2 and 1v1.

@below

when did i say if they nerf glass cannon build non var will die. i m saying glass cannon build are stepping stone for non variums without glass cannon builds, it would just be harder for a non varium to get full enhancements.

@ drinde

yep 5 focus emp build kill almost all builds XD which makes me wonder is emp oped or not



Remorse -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 4:36:16)

^ That is because non variums have NO hope at all agianst beating varium glasscannons UNLESS the non varium uses the same style build themsleves.


Saying that if you nerf glass cannons you will also nerf NON variums is actuly wrong.

WHY? Without glass cannons all battles were more focused around startegy and back in those days eg. beta People often lost to smart non variums with unqiue stratgies.
It is extremely unfair that NON variums HAVE to go these builds but by actuly nerfing these builds you INCREASE the chance for a msart non varium to win and get what they deserve.

I used to have many Smart non varium freinds back in beta who I strggled to beat many times, Thanks to enahmcnets and glass canons this is no longer the case, Infact I basically never lose to non variums and the ones that I do lose to are glass canons BUT that doesnt mean that glass canons should Not be nerfed.( they should)

If you wont non variums to become powerful again then you need to change enahmnets and therefore nerf glass canons.



drinde -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 5:24:13)

^
Technically, with a good smoke and EMP, one has a chance of beating BM Glass cannons.

Also, why does no one like the idea of replacing Bezerker to Assimilate on BMs? :O

Its a workable idea IMO.



ansh0 -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 13:27:27)

^Hey Drinde! Long time, no see, eh?

Soo.... what on earth is a glass cannon? New skill?





~black spidey



Darkeroid -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 13:31:54)

^Glass cannons are build with low defenses,but high damage,like strength builds.



Cyberbeast10 -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 14:05:06)

I think the simplest way to solve the "powerbuild" problem is to change the way purely defensive skills work. Instead of defensive skills increasing a set amount of defense/resistance, they should reduce damage/energy damage by a fixed percent; which will greatly harm powerbuilds as their skills will deal significantly less damage. Next, change gun damage to increase by the DEX stat which should be modified to raise damage at a lower rate.

This way, managing skills would be the most effective way of dealing damage consistently and STRIKE being simply a last resort.



Calogero -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 14:12:24)

@ Cyber

That would be a double nerf for BloodMages then...
With the Skilltree they have now, they'd only be able to do Full STR build in Solo and Tank in Jugger...

Tech abuse will die faster than Tech Mage due to no energy regain and/or Debuff of the defences.
Dex abuse, well same reason as above...




Ranloth -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 14:14:31)

Yep, make Guns improve with DEX! Totally for CHs having Plasma + abuse of Dex for Defence + Gun + Heal-looping any skills anytime, anyday! :3



Cyberbeast10 -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 14:19:53)

What could be modified is that Malfunction and Smoke; seeing as they are only used for offensive purposes; do the opposite of defense buffs; increase damage/energy damage by a fixed percent; however defensive skills have to be modified to be naturally stronger than the offensive counterparts.

...And I suppose Gun damage can work in a focus kind of way; for every 2 points that STR and DEX match each other in; gun damage is improved by 1.



rayniedays56 -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 14:37:57)

I like battles that last roughly 30-40 rounds. It usually means that the builds are well thought out. For cybers, I see this with very high dex and decent tech builds; for BMs....well....who seriously has been in a battle with one for over 10 rounds? Tact Mercs aren't fun anymore because of the nerf, TM have finally become a bit OP, but they are still easy to get rid of, and Mercs...well...I gotta say that I feel sorry for the class.


Best Classes at the moment? (considering unique builds and not just quick kills)

Bounty Hunter (yes...they are strong...they can have a strength build, a tech build, a dex build, high HP, low HP...)
Cyber Hunter (whine about it all you want, they still have very unique builds that have been coming up) ((they should replace PA with TECH though))
Tact Merc (the builds with Tact Merc have become extremely defensive and I have seen a revival in Support builds for this class)
Tech Mage (the only good builds I see with this class is the High Tech/Caster or the High Dex/Super Charge)
Mercenary (there are many good builds with this class, but it is so UP that it is pointless)
Blood Mage (only one good build for this class, and it is strength)



ScarletReaper -> RE: Glass Cannons (3/20/2012 16:36:45)

^ I have to agree. That's why hunters have always been my favorite classes. And yeah, I like the choices you get with Bounties. If Ch gets nerfed in the near future, that's what I'll be going back to. :p



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 19:27:35)

Rage is a bit messed up.

How about when rage is gained after being hit should be about equal when you hit someone else. Really, it's making strength and other glass cannon builds OP'ed because of this.


-Midnightsoul



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 20:28:52)

^
Gaining rage through those means was just there to combat tanks. A more ideal solution would to have it so if a person's support wasn't at a certain level then they gain rage a bit slower that way strength builds aren't as dominant while allowing matches between 2 tanks to not be as drawn out.



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