RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 20:38:54)

^

I think rage should be determined by Support as it does right now and only by taking damage. Dealing damage for rage is exploited by few people aside from the cannons.



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Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 20:41:33)

^
But if it only by taking damage then strength builds will still gain rage faster because of their low defenses while tanks have high defenses.
But increase the rage minimum and maximum %s of increase will combat cannons gaining rage fast, if you have 45 more support it caps at 15% so make it so it caps at 60 more support which is around 20% or making 2 support=1% so if you have 30 more support you get a bigger bonus, small changes like this will slowly nerf builds and classes without killing them instantly.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 21:04:40)

quote:

But if it only by taking damage then strength builds will still gain rage faster because of their low defenses while tanks have high defenses.


Key: Rage is engineered to combat tanks.

quote:

But increase the rage minimum and maximum %s of increase will combat cannons gaining rage fast, if you have 45 more support it caps at 15% so make it so it caps at 60 more support which is around 20% or making 2 support=1% so if you have 30 more support you get a bigger bonus, small changes like this will slowly nerf builds and classes without killing them instantly.


Not bad at all.



If I chose to support the option where the rage gauge fills with damage dealt (specifically how much damage is reduced from defences)... tanks still somewhat lose in this principle, but cannons somewhat win because it would really only matter how much of the player's armour you are hitting. That is why I suggest calculating rage by only the damage received, offense gains an advantage over tanks, but health gains an advantage over offense, tanks gain an advantage over health. Rock paper scissors, it works.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 21:10:35)

But for health to gain an advantage over offense then wouldn't agility have to be removed? Since too much health results in loss of defense which in turn allows offense to do a lot of damage, even though health builds would gain rage fast they won't survive long after that.

Another possible way to deal with cannons getting rage is to reduce the amount of defense ignored if they have too much of 1 stat, for instance past 85 in a single stat will result in it only ignoring 35% then having more than 100 of 1 stat result in it only ignoring 25%.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 21:25:16)

Luna_moonraider, Then put your energy high enough and carry boosters like the Blood Mage and if Support is high enough, the chance of deflection is low. For the Plasma Cannon to have any real damage one or two things have to happen low resistance of the other player tech 116 (35-42) and above and for Plasma Rain tech at 140 (40-48). I have not seen yet a Blood Mage, especially a strength Blood mage get 90%++ as you are claiming they can because one as soon as players see they re a strength Blood Mage they take them down first because they have low resistance and defense. The only players that can have high health and energy with high defense and resistance good amount of support is the players of any class that carries no requirement weapons while the rest have to deal with requirements.

Don’t worry everyone your complaints have been heard you will see less strength and tech Blood Mages after this next update but will see high Dex Blood Mages and a new balance issue will arise in all battle modes and if you don’t see it now with the mercs new passive skill you will see it after the update.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 21:29:17)

quote:

But for health to gain an advantage over offense then wouldn't agility have to be removed? Since too much health results in loss of defense which in turn allows offense to do a lot of damage, even though health builds would gain rage fast they won't survive long after that.


Hummm, true, the one dilemma is that offensive players are usually seen incorporating health. Imagine a 45 health player with great offensive power battling a 145 health player with OK skills... but gains rage within 2-3 turns. That is the example I was trying to lay out.

And yes I would remove agility and instead because players may go high health, high Strength (or Support), instead, to counter these health exploiters who also have good damage... lower the stat progressions with decay for the 4 basic stats.

quote:

Another possible way to deal with cannons getting rage is to reduce the amount of defense ignored if they have too much of 1 stat, for instance past 85 in a single stat will result in it only ignoring 35% then having more than 100 of 1 stat result in it only ignoring 25%.


I like that, as long as that means during rage and not in gaining rage.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 21:34:11)

It is really unfair to think that Multi Shot's damage base damage is higher than Plasma Rain, I did a test on multi's damage and base damage is higher than 3-5 damage than plasma's. Either nerf Multi Shot or buff Plasma Rain. Used the same amount of stats in both, 136 stats in dexterity which makes a 36-44 def and 39-47 in technology, and found out that issue. I hope this gets fixed, else I will keep spamming it until it is fixed, it is time for balanced to get straight up



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 22:12:36)

^ That is not a problem.

If you notice, multi shot progreses in damage diffrent to plsama rain.

If you max both the skills they have ruffly the same damage because for the last 3 level of multi shot it only gains 1 dmagae per level where as plasma rain continues to get 2 damage per level.

Therefore the only diffrence is plasma rain gets a advanatge of being effecient level to max out.
and multi shot gets the advanatge of being stronger at lower levels in comparison to some.

Both have advanatges and nothing is balance breacking here.




DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/20/2012 22:15:03)

It doesn't, Remorse try it, I did already and I found myself pissed off founding it out, we both max multies, had 136 stats and multi shot had more damage base still so I don't know how you can come to say that when I test it.

Here is an image of plasma bolt's damage base: Here 72 energy damage



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/21/2012 4:58:27)

@ hun
quote:

I have not seen yet a Blood Mage, especially a strength Blood mage get 90%++


where in the world did i say a bm with str build could get 90%++. i said caster bm could do it not str bm.

the blood mage was using a str build in 2v2 using a str build means fast kill but bad %.

quote:

Then put your energy high enough and carry boosters like the Blood Mage and if Support is high enough, the chance of deflection is low


1) support does not improve deflection chances
2) if we have high support only thing we can do is crit,start first and don't get stun
3) High energy tlm kinda impossible because if u want reroute and mineral armor u need to have 42 dex and 36 tech for max mineral armor at a lvl 7 reroute
4) high energy= low support low dex low tech ( support builds ignor str so no need to say low str)
5) tech is a way better stat for bm/mages as they have u power skill which improve with tech
6) support improves multi for tlms and zooka only
7) why the hell am i repeating what i said below btw that was what i posted before read it before saying oh go high energy and high hp

quote:

yes we have reroute but emp kills us and we cant play high hp high energy and high tech builds in 2v2 because 1) only skill which improves with tech is surgical strike,2) we spam support not tech. more tech= deflect= support tlm 2nd source of dmg, the zooka becoming unreliable, 3)support=not oped stat anymore. if support still has deflect then i would say support tlm are way better than caster bm/tm.caster bm/tm have like 100+ energy they can have that much energy because tech improves their resistance and their dmging skills if tlm use high hp and high energy build they would be left to have low resistance or low defenses.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/21/2012 12:05:49)

@ Death gaurd.

Did you even test multi shot???


Or did you asume it to be higher the 72 damage....

Because I obtained 137 dex the same tech you had and at max my multi shot was only 71!!

Thats actuly 1 weaker then yours....

So Unless you wanna get my multi buffed :D

I sugest you ignore the multi damages xD



Ez_Ease -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/21/2012 15:42:49)

I think rage should be on incoming damage, most things do not like being struck.
I dont think it should be on just one stat.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/21/2012 15:57:38)

@Remorse: Dont you see I said we both max multies, a friend did it for me and I saw damage.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 5:58:55)

Harummmm.

What if we put a 1 turn warm up for Plasma Bolt?



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 9:24:18)

^ That is not necesary,


What they should do is not allow plasmabolt/firebolt to be used IF you start.


So it would kinda like a warm up except if you go second you can still use it your first turn.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 12:24:25)

If your interesting in Diablo 3 as I am, you've probably heard of their new feature called Nephalem Valor Buff. I think this also could be useful in ED, or something like it, for the sake of balance. Quick summary: If you not change build/skills will get get a small gold/weapon buff (drop).

For ED it would be: If you not change build/class you will gain a small gold/exp buff?
If you not change class in 1 month or so, you would get a small credit bonus. Some might find it "wrong" as non-varium players easily will get this "buff/bonus", but I think that is fair.

This would maybe stop some players from changing class/build after every update and go for the strongest possible, maybe people would stay with their style they like. This is just a fast suggestion "I" came up with (As I said, its from Diablo 3 tho, but I think it would be appropriate for ED aswell) and it surely would need more details and such. But what do you guys think of something like this?



Midnightsoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 13:29:22)

@zman
I'm saying that rage gains should have a higher amount from being hit because you barely get any rage from being hit...



Cyberbeast10 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 13:42:00)

The Nephalem Valor Buff suggestion seems nice! But I'm not sure if it would be effective at higher levels seeing as those are all about the wins, right?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/22/2012 20:41:21)

Luna_moonraider, artillery strike is one of the powerful multis in the game and it is easier getting high support then high tech. You surely don’t know the Blood mage class too well since you think a strength Blood Mage is not a Caster Blood Mage. Fireball requires a staff so they can actually be called strength caster mages. For the skills that improves with tech the Blood Mage tech has to be at least 140 (40-48) to show any real damage potential especially Plasma Rain.

I see that another player sees that Plasma Rain is not up to par with other multi’s and the same people are arguing with him. It is always players of the non-mage class that don’t have that skill so how can’t they dispute the things that are said about Plasma Rain if they don’t have that skill to use? I have used it quite often so they can get the Data from it don’t know if they did or not but hopefully they did. Sometimes I got high damage on a player with more tech than his partner. Sometimes players with tech at 54 (20-24) no additional armor I get 35 damage on one 37 damage on the other.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 6:47:54)

Well, since I got some support, Imma post it again:

BloodMagi:

Bezerker -> Assimilation.

With that outta the way, heres a nifty idea.

Instead of scaling UP, the Damage and Defense ranges should scale DOWN as we level them.

I.E.

DMG: 14-17
DMG: 15-18
DMG: 16-17

This would make stat abusers eventually have less for what they spend on their points. Of course, we'd have to modify the lower stat effect ranges to make them able to scale properly.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 7:53:50)

^ 100% support the beserk for asimilation idea!!!


PLEASE DEVS :D

I dont exactly get what you mean with reducing the damage range because that wouldt really make a diffrence to them, it just means they cant hit high or low but in the middle is just as bad....



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 7:59:46)

Oh noes, they wouldn't hit the middle.

They'd just hit the lowest range number if enough points are pooled.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 8:04:36)

^So pretty much its just another diminishing returns???


I support then,

Power is bad and unfotunately restrictions have to be added to fix it...

Would be alot simpler if the devs would consider an enahcements revamp.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 8:37:31)

Not too sure about the Assimilation for Berzerker swap. My Strength Mage is enjoying eating energy with his Assimilation. Often enough, it gives me a good advantage over power builds that need that energy. In fact, I've even come out on top of BMs because they didn't have the energy to both Fireball and Zerk. It's often a close fight between a Str Mage and a Str BM.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (3/23/2012 8:54:49)

^
Urm, without Bezerker, you wouldn't need to take that energy to stop Zerkers. :P



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