RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 19:36:20)

quote:

And Oba, i have seen TLMs spam Atom me, and i did not block every single one, only block 1 atom when i was atomed 6-7 times in battle, how much EP is that? And also, the TLM was a tank, with max reroute, 4 heal etc and you know the rest. And if your Atom is being blocked a lot, blame luck, not another SKILL.


funny that you mentioned that, because that's what Atom relies on, the Luck to hit the opponent.
EMP is a Guarenteed hit and requires no luck at all

if not the removal of EMP, it should be put as a Tier 4 skill at the place of Energy Grenade .




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 19:37:48)

LUCK HAS BEEN SPOKEN.

quote:

I am suggesting that for "luck" to become something strategic in each and every one of our EpicDuel battles. How this would work is that we play using counters uding stat-specific battle mechanics like blocking or going critical.

For Support's case, first turn is a once per battle occurrence, so I recommend that whoever has the highest Support stat total should go first... with level difference exceptions (the lower the level, the more handicap to begin the match). Support also manifests critical hits and stun resistance and blocks and deflects, and these would occur more than once. So now I will reintroduce the suggestion of counters. Counters are the number of charges for how many times an ability can be used for. If I have 5 critical hit charges, I can then choose to critical hit a maximum of 5 times. I would have calculated these counters by simply the number of stat points, but then there are no real benefits to using Focus... or having 2 equally Support savvy players critical hit 10 times under their control (easily exploitative). So, these "counters" would be calculated by the difference in stat points between both sides.

The progression would look something like:

10+ Stat Difference: 1 Counter

20+ Stat Difference: 2 Counters

30+ Stat Difference: 3 Counters

40+ Stat Difference: 4 Counters

50+ Stat Difference: 5 Counters [MAXIMUM]

State and behaviour of the counters work like this:

  • players initially receive all of their counters at the start of a battle

  • players may use all of their counters in a battle that they have

  • using a counter does not take up a turn, and may only be used on the player's turn

  • stun resist counters have 1 turn cooldowns, deflect counters have 2 turn cooldowns, block counters have 3 turn cooldowns, and critical counters have 4 turn cooldowns, these counters must cooldown before another usage, counters of different types may be used on the same turn, but only one counter per type may be used per turn

  • all counters have a 1 turn warmup

  • counters remain in play until they are used

  • counters ONLY affect weapons (Primary, Sidearm, Auxiliary, Robot)

  • counters can stack, 2 block counters at once means that the next 2 incoming Strikes or Robot Strikes will be blocked

  • counters are only visible to the user

  • counters do not affect any skills

  • skills that go critical (like Bunker Buster) no longer have critical chance, however, they receive a buff of defense ignore or other damage buff

  • skills that stun (like Stun Grenade) are now guaranteed, however, their damage must be reduced, energy costs raised, and their cooldowns raised (reasonably)

  • all skills cannot be blocked, deflected, or go critical

  • anticounters are temporary counters that initialize when a nerf (Smokescreen, Malfunction) or buff (Reflex Boost, Technician) skill is used. Anticounters only last for as long as the inflicting skill does

  • anticounters do not destroy normal counters

  • block anticounters, are created by Reflex Boost that create 1 temporary block or Smokescreen that creates 1 temporary anti-block counter. Anti-block counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 block counter until Smokescreen wears off or is used to negate 1 block counter. Reflex Boost gives 1 temporary block counter that is removed when Reflex Boost wears off or is used to block 1 Strike. If the target has 2 block counters stacked and 1 anti-block counter, 1 block counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to block a Strike. If an anticounter interacts with a block counter, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • deflect anticounters, are created by Technician that create 1 temporary deflect or Malfunction that creates 1 temporary anti-deflect counter. Anti-deflect counters temporarily prevent the target from using 1 deflect counter until Malfunction wears off or is used to negate 1 delfect counter. Technician gives 1 temporary deflect counter that is removed when Technician wears off or is used to deflect 1 shot. If the target has 2 deflect counters stacked and 1 anti-deflect counter, 1 deflect counter will be negated (temporarily), and the other counter used to deflect a shot. If an anticounter interacts with a deflect counters, the anticounters will disappear but normal counters will not (the anticounter overrides 1 counter)

  • specialty weapons (celtic weapons/azrael weapons), now give 1 counter to the specific ability (eg, Azrael Bane gives 1 critical counter, Celtic Cleaver gives 1 anti-block counter)

  • for this to work in 2v2 and in Juggernaut, the highest stat of the players of 1 side are compared to the highest stat of the players of the other side (eg, Team1A has 40 Support, Team1B has 70 Support, Team2A has 60 Support, Team2B has 20 Support... Team1B's Support is compared to Team2A's Support, and Team1A's Support compared to Team2B's Support)

    But please, do comment, question, and feedback your thoughts to me! If anything is wrong, I would appreciate if you can inform me of any loopholes or missing information, and I will make amends!


  • quote:

    What if rage were to be calculated like this:

    How does the Rage Meter fill up?


    Rage is accumulated on the player's turn, the amount of rage determined by the sum of the base Defense and Resistance of the opponent. The calculations exclude passive armour skills, armours, and agility. Connecting an attack for 3 damage (the minimum), gives a bonus to rage for the attacker.

    How many points are required to fill the Rage Meter?

    The base amount of rage = 130

    Total Rage = 130 + (10 * player level)

    How is rage calculated?

    Rage is calculated at the start of a player's turn. The amount of rage points gained is equal to the sum of the opponent's Defense and Resistance. There is also a bonus to rage from Support. The amount of rage gained from Support is equal to the difference of the player's Support value minus the opponent's Support value, divided by 4.

    -

    Example:

    Player A vs Player B

    Player A: 28-34 Defense / 22-27 Resistance (ignores armour, passive armour [Hybrid Armour], and agility)

    Player B: 25-30 Defense / 25-30 Resistance


    It is Player A's turn...

    Player A's rage bonus = 25 + 25 (= 50 rage points)

    It is Player B's turn...

    Player B's rage bonus = 28 + 22 (= 50 rage points)

    -

    How much of a bonus is a 3 damage connection?

    Connecting for 3 damage gives the player a rage bonus equal to the stricken defense of the opponent (eg, 3 energy damage hit on a 40 Resistance opponent, 40 resistance gained).

    How much more damage will a Rage attack inflict?


    A rage attack ignores 50% of Defense or Resistance and ignores passive skills INCLUDING Reroute and Shadow Arts of the target of the rage attack.

    Does rage accumulate when attacking?

    No. There is no reason to, this is a black and white format to specifically handle tanking builds without promoting just offense in PvP.

    Please leave constructive criticism. Thank you.




    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 19:37:57)

    SA is luck-based, reliable? Hardly.
    But we Chs still live with it, Mercs have 2 passive NON-LUCK based.




    PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 19:40:19)

    debatable whether Adrenaline is actually better than Shadowarts in 1v1.




    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 19:42:52)

    Adrenaline has a significant improvement in 2v2n 1v1 may not be significant, but still it works. And it only makes you rage faster than normal, not faster than your enemy if you've mis-takened that for it.

    SA sometimes is really significant, other times it's utterly useless, answer is-Luck based.




    Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 20:12:11)

    Useless or not, these skills are its still a passive skill.. And adrenaline is not good at all either, so that argument is invalid my friend!

    "SA is luck-based", well you get a improved block and stun rate just as I get a little faster rage then I should have got.




    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 22:34:38)

    If a passive is useless, what's the point then?

    And Adrenaline is SIGNIFICANT in 2v2, but just less in 1v1. Still, at least it WORKS.





    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 23:50:14)

    CH Nerf?
    Atom Slicer
    %s are of the the weapons own damage so a Lv 33 at level 1 will cause the enemy to lose 11 energy
    Level 1: 43%
    Level 2: 50%
    Level 3: 57%
    Level 4: 64%
    Level 5: 71%
    Level 6: 78%
    Level 7: 85%
    Level 8: 92%
    Level 9: 99%
    Level 10: 106%
    Cost: 4 energy, goes up by 1 for every level.
    Tier 2, takes DM's space and DM will take EMP's place.
    Claws only. 2 Cool down. It is block able.
    It is weaker than atom smasher but it costs less.

    With a weapon with 34 damage it will take away 30 energy at max.
    Stronger? Weaker? What do you think?

    But also raise SC a bit since CH will be nerfed so it won't be too bad.




    drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 23:56:30)

    I'd prefer the CyH's get a EP-Drainer dependent on SUPPORT.




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/11/2012 23:59:19)

    I do not support that Atom Slicer. It will only allocate MORE players to become Strength Based, whereas we have too many skills associated with strength as it is.


    Cheapshot
    Massacre
    Static Charge


    Getting rid of EMP would only unbalance our class more, since EMP and Plasma Grenade are the only Technology enhanced items.


    I say switch EMP and Defense Matrix around. This switch would allocate Cybers to use more instead of automatically having an EMP on every build.

    Also, a Tier 2 skill is more powerful than Tier 1, so the energy levels could be uped.

    New Levels:

    1: 14
    2: 16
    3: 18
    4: 20
    5: 22
    6: 23
    7: 24
    8: 25
    9: 26
    10: 27

    The stat progression stays the same, it is just the cost that goes up.


    So, a level 1 EMP (mind you, we must use a skill point for level 1 now) would generally take away 24-27 energy while using 14 energy in the process.




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:04:07)

    ^
    It is weapon damage ONLY it does not involve strength at all.
    You can have a trillion strength but with a level 34 weapon even at max it will be 30 energy.




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:06:32)

    Basically an energy drain version of Static Charge?

    Still...I do not support...I'm sorry :/ It sounds WAY too UP for our class.




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:10:05)

    ^
    It has an incredibly low energy cost and to make up for it I also suggested raising SC back up to 44%.
    And a Level 1 with a level 34 weapon will take away 12 energy.
    Besides I'm willing to raise the %s for the idea if enough people say it needs to be higher.




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:14:00)

    Hmmm....yes, I understand what you are trying to implement. :)


    It still is just a little too...weak....


    WOn't we have to have a level 5 to be able to do at least 20 energy? Atom smasher is able to do roughly 25 energy at level one.

    I understand it has a low energy cost, just think about the skill points issue. Almost NO ONE will allocate 5+ points into an energy drain skill if it only takes away 20+ at level 5.

    The energy cost may be awesome, it is just the skill points issue. It is a nice thought though.




    ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:17:39)

    @raynieday Some people invest 10 points into Assimilation for 12 points drained and 6 gained for yourself so the "too many points need invested" isn't a great argument. Plus, skills are supposed to be leveled past 1 to be useful. That is the major reason strength skills got nerfed into taking a % of your weapon and not the whole damage range because every melee skill was too good at lvl 1 and a waste of energy past that.




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:17:46)

    Buffed it a bit, starts off 10% higher and +7% per level instead of +6%.
    Nerf it? Buff? Or is it fine?




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:22:28)

    It looks a bit better now :)


    I say make it only a 1 turn cool down and adding a 1 turn warm up and this skill will be good


    @ Mallet

    I understand what you are stating. But, assimilation takes it away AND adds to the energy, which is why it is highly used.
    Assimilation is, I say, the most balanced energy drain skill.




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:24:22)

    ^
    Well I want people to add some points in it, the main 2 problems of EMP was that it is unblockable and takes a way a lot of energy. If it was made with 1 cool down then people wouldn't even be able to gain their energy back.
    With my current build I would need 4 or 5 skill points for the same amount of energy damage as with my EMP. But it also costs a lot less so it balances out well.




    ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:25:18)

    @raynie It's 6 points added on at Max. With 6 energy I believe I could use a lvl 1 Atom Smasher and that's about it.




    rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 0:32:18)

    @ Mr. Black OP

    I was talking about Atom Slicer

    It can be like Atom smasher then.

    0 turn warm up and 2 turn cool down.

    I just wanted it to be like a "new" skill and not a remade skill.

    It is a well thought out idea :) As long as it stays like that, then I will believe that people will enjoy it. HOWEVER, we must make SC 44% before adding this :/


    @ ND mallet

    ? Assimilation is only a Mage skill... SO you wouldn't be able to use the Atom Smasher :) and since mages also have reroute, that 6 energy could become 15 quickly. WHy I like assimilation is that it is pretty much balanced :)




    Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 1:34:42)

    I finished the quotes at the top of the page.

    Any questions, concerns, comments, etc?




    Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 3:05:55)

    CHs need a special passive, one that isn't the old EP-drain, EP-gain, HP-drain, HP-gain etc

    Adrenaline and DA are all types of different passives, we need to be creative here :D




    PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 13:28:51)

    so when is Plasma Bolt gonna be nerfed? its stupid that a level 27 can do 70+ dmg with only a 2 turn cooldown.

    how can anyone compete with that other than using Plasma Bolt, Bunker Buster and hoping to go first.
    a requirement is needed at least, and I'd suggest increasing energy cost again, it is devastating.




    Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 13:56:27)

    ^
    Raise Plasma Bolt to Fireball's energy.
    Add a low strength requirement.
    @Arevero
    Immunity:
    Level 1: -1 Poison Damage, 1% Stun Resistance
    Level 2: -2 Poison Damage, 2% Stun Resistance
    Level 3: -3 Poison Damage, 3% Stun Resistance
    Level 4: -4 Poison Damage, 4% Stun Resistance
    Level 5: -5 Poison Damage, 5% Stun Resistance
    Level 6: -6 Poison Damage, 6% Stun Resistance
    Level 7: -7 poison Damage, 7% Stun Resistance
    Level 8: -8 Poison Damage, 8% Stun Resistance
    Level 9: -9 Poison Damage, 9% Stun Resistance
    Level 10: -10 Poison Damage, 10% Stun Resistance

    Strength Requirement, replaces SA on CH skill tree.




    Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 18:43:45)

    @Mr.Black

    How is the skill you suggested helpful to the CH class at the same time balancing it? O_o please clarify?

    Scenario Mage 1:1
    I'm a TM fighting a CH with Immunity skill, I do not use overlord to stun the CH, how is that skill going to be useful for the CH?

    Scenario Mage 1:2
    I'm a BM fighting a CH with Immunity skill, I dont even have a stun or poison skill, so I'll just fireball or plasma cannon etc... the CH until the CH dies since that skill wont affect this fight.

    Scenario Merc 1:1
    I'm a regular merc fighting a CH Immunity skill, I wont use maul on the CH, I'll just multi and bunker my way through or bot it through

    Scenario Merc 1:2
    I'm a Tac.Merc fighting a CH with Immunity skill, I wont use poison grenade, it wasn't within my build or I just don't want to use it since it won't be much of an effect.... How will that skill help CH in this situation?

    Scenario Hunters 1:1
    I'm a regular hunter fighting a CH Immunity skill, I wont poison nor stun the CH, since it wont do much or I dont even have the poison skill activated in my build, now how is that skill "Immunity" going to help the CH?

    Scenario Hunter 1:2
    I'm a CH fighting a CH with the Immunity skill, I won't use grenade because its not that helpful or it's just not within my build....Now how is the CH with the skill "Immunity" going to be useful?

    Please think before just making a skill and think it'll balance or help the said class




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