RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 18:50:35)

NEW SKILL FOR CYBER HUNTERS! (edited)

Ultimate Skill

Cyber Explosion *insert description here*.

Improves with Support. (1 dmg/6 support after 22).
Energy.

With 22 Support:

Level 1: 32-40 Energy Damage.
Level 2: 35-43 Energy Damage.
Level 3: 38-46 Energy Damage.
Level 4: 41-49 Energy Damage.
Level 5: 45-53 Energy Damage.
Level 6: 48-56 Energy Damage.
Level 7: 51-59 Energy Damage.
Level 8: 54-62 Energy Damage.
Level 9: 57-65 Energy Damage.
Level 10: 60-68 Energy Damage.

Energy Cost:

Level 1: 33 Energy
Level 2: 36 Energy
Level 3: 39 Energy
Level 4: 42 Energy
Level 5: 45 Energy
Level 6: 48 Energy
Level 7: 51 Energy
Level 8: 54 Energy
Level 9: 57 Energy
Level 10: 60 Energy



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 18:55:43)

GO BROKEN SKILLS! :D
But seriously, are you nuts with 22 Support and 72-80 damage? Ultimates like SC and SS require at least 100 of the stat to get near it, not exactly the same, and you're speaking of 22 Support. At 100 Support, that's 13 more damage, making 85-98 damage. /facepalm
Also Ultimates have 2 special effects, Massacre is exception due to % scaling + being 'controlled' by your weapon too; type and damage.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 18:56:43)

@matrix
Very few CH uses plasma grenade so SA is useless with its stun chance.
The block chance from SA makes the game even more luck based.
Scenario 1:
TLM vs CH
The TLM has 10 points in poison, he sees the CH has Immunity he won't use it, he just wasted 10 skill points. He uses it then it does very little damage and he wasted 33 energy.

Scenario 2:
TM/BH/BM vs CH
CH has the TM/BM/BH in a corner, without immunity the TM/BM/BH can use overload/stun grenade possibly stunning changing the outcome of the match. The CH with immunity has a lower chance of this happening.

It's a situational passive, it is only supposed to be useful in certain situations. Besides I would take that over my level 3 SA for 3 reasons:
1) I (as well as many other CH) already have pretty high dexterity so I would block anyways
2) I do not even use Plasma Grenade (like many other CH)
3) Its consistent, I know if I get poisoned I will take less damage, but with SA I do not know whether I will block or not.
Besides I wasn't going for balancing, Arevero wanted to hear a passive that doesn't have anything to do with health or energy and it was the first thing that came to mind.



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 18:59:19)

It's edited now, Trans.



Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 19:22:10)

@Mr.Black

Sure you have a point there, but when the classes that are fighting against the CH class, DO NOT use their stun or poison skills, HOW your immunity skill then be useful? That is my point, if you take a look at the other passive skills, they all become helpful to the class when either attacking or defending, but your immunity skill is pretty much INEFFECTIVE when your opponent decides to avoid using stun or poison. Your skill that you suggested is pretty much worst than SA is when your opponent decides to avoid using stun or poison, that skill is then pretty much a waste of space skill.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 19:27:14)

^
I'll admit you have a point there. What about changing stun resistance to chance to hit?



Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 19:31:35)

now that will make it a bit more defensive + offensive, but the idea of poison there is still not good because like i said, if I dont use poison that portion of the skill is useless, a skill is suppose to be useful whether good or bad on a whole not half half



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 19:33:20)

^
You would have 1 ability that is always active and 1 that is situational. Like SA, if you do not use stun the increase in stun % is useless.



Matrix77 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 19:34:20)

yes I agree, you're right with that :)



Combatoid -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 21:21:12)

The main reason why TLM was op since it had smoke screen AND a dmg to health skill. Since smoke screen is removed than wouldn't it make more sense and put more balance to the game and make Frenzy do more? I recommend making Frenzy better or replacing field medic with a skill that decreases block chance of the enemy. Field commander is like Venom for CH, nobody really uses it nor needs it.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/12/2012 21:32:31)

@combat It was meant to be a nerf. It's not a nerf when they lose damage but have the same restoration of health from Frenzy. Also, Smokescreen was changed because Technician boosted Smokescreen, Surgical Strike and Bot damage.



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:07:23)

The multi skill turned out to be a nerf.[:@]

They now do less damage but they cost less now.


BEfore the nerf LEVEL 5: multi shot do 60(MY DAMAGE)-22(RES)=38 damage on both target for 34 mp

Now LEVEL 7:multi shot do 64 my damage)-22(res)=42x0.75=31.5 damage on both target for 34 mp

This forced u to do invest more and that iit 2 opponents.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:15:45)

@steven It was supposed to be nerfed in damage because it was a guaranteed skill you needed in 2vs2 to be good. If any skill is required to do good in any battle mode then it needs looked at, no exceptions. Even Passives apply to this.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:17:31)

In fact, nerf isn't even applied. It does normal damage and less EP cost, which seems to be a bug as few people noticed that damage is the same.
And of course it's a nerf, but what's your point? EP cost is also lower which helps with Energy control - you as a CH should be worrying less about Energy control unlike classes with no Energy regeneration, for them every point counts and hearing CH saying it's a nerf is a good thing, always bringing them closer to balance.

Also you're doing calculations wrong. You apply penality first, then resistances:
64x0.75=48-22(Res)=26 damage - sure this isn't much but it hits both Enemies and is stronger than pure 1v1 skill with a bit higher EP cost (which averages out). So in theory, you can use 1v1 build and 2v2 and get the same damage output in 2v2 which simply allows bigger variety rather than focus on 2v2.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:46:20)

What, no one likes the nerf when everyone is saying nerf this nerf that and when they get a nerf then they don't like it. I was trying to get Plasma Rain up to par with other multis that way nothing would be nerfed, but quite a few of you fought me on this. I wanted the high energy drain skills be a one use skill or be used on the same player only once so instead they reduced the amount of energy the multis use in exchange for lesser damage. now you have no choice if you want to have the power from the multi you seek you either have to reflex boost, malfunction, or increase your support. The reduction in the energy doesn't mean flip when you get hit with two high energy draining skills.

So now what do you want nerfed the passive armors down to only increasing +1 for defense, resistance or both to get the balance you want since that is how many of you thinks balanced is achieved by nerf after nerf or would you rather bring the Delta armor up to par for the non passive armor classes with the passive armor classes?

They reduce the energy cost of multis so players would get away from 1vs1 builds, especially the non multi tank builds, in the 2vs2 and 2vs1 battle modes but it failed because now I see more 1vs1 and 1vs1 tank builds in 2vs2.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:48:58)

Hun

Stop trying to favoritize Non Passive defence classes...

They don't have defences but they have skills that other classes don't have

I'm a 5 Focus BloodMage and I actualy manage pretty well
if you can't make a build that doesn't involve passive defences, just change class



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:50:29)

@hun
I'll trade my plasma armor for your bloodlust.
If armors gave more defenses to classes without passive armors then whats the point of having them to begin with?



Angels Holocaust -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:52:02)

I think that everything is fine right now. There's no need no buff or nerf anything else.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 11:55:11)

Imo only EMP might need a change on CHs

if not removing it from the class, it could always be eather switched with:

Energy Grenade or Defence Matrix



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 12:05:29)

quote:

Stop trying to favoritize Non Passive defence classes...

They don't have defences but they have skills that other classes don't have


THIS is something Hun Kingq NEVER will understand...



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 12:31:32)

clearly I need to break the numbers down for you guys AGAIN!

now I haven't taken into account that most players would round up their dex/tech to reach the next res/def increase so stats below are just general figures.

Mineral Armour requires 42 dex at max. 42 dex = 14-17 defence. +11 = 25-28 defence. 23-28 defence requires 74 dex giving TLM an extra 32 stat points to spend.
Plasma Armour requires 43 tech at max. 43 tech = 15-18 resistance. +11 = 26-29 resistance. 24-29 resistance requires 69 tech giving CH an extra 26 stat points to spend.

Deadly Aim also gives free stat points but the major difference is gun has a 2 turn cooldown whereas defence and resistance works on every attack.

while the armours don't offer as many free stats as they used to, in a game now so heavily dominated by stats, it is significant. I'd rather have the extra stats and the
extra defence/resistance from the passive armour than an additional skill. no classes can tank like TLM and CH, not even merc with Delta Knight.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 13:01:45)

quote:

+8 defense and +8 resistance so still with your hybrid on max you still have more defense and resistance then the non passive armor classes.So why don't you want the defense and resistance to have more points for the non passive armor classes?


Because strength bounty hunter can currently whip any build once they go for 1v1. Most of them have 139 hp, high emp and a level 5-7 massacre. Their dexterity is often 27-33 or 91 dexterity or slightly lower than that. Making it +8 to both def and res would mean 27-33 +8 defense and a resistance of 22-27 +8 and even if -2 from agility would be there, they can still do high damage.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 13:12:48)

King FrostLich, it would not only be raised on the bounty hunter but also the tech mage and the Blood Mage so the tech mage and Blood mage will have better protection from the massacre. About the EMP that is why I proposed it to be turned to a one use skill. Massacre should be made blockable. That reason you gave is not a good reason why they should not raise it for the non pasive armor classes.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 13:24:25)

Hah that's a joke. Most tech mages are currently tank casters, blood mages are strength users especially bounty hunters and these 3 classes right now are using quick kill builds because heal looping/support/5 focus doesn't work on them properly because of cyber hunters abusing their emp and plasma armor. Making emp be used only for 1 turn isn't gonna be also good. The majority of all bounty hunters and cybers would be devastated on not draining mana but I do however want cyber hunters to have their emp removed since they can abuse it with a tank build. And about massacre, it's not the skill that is overpowered, it's that stupid formula that makes it overpowered when hitting tank builds.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/13/2012 13:58:03)

King FrostLich, what would they replace emp with and if not removed, the only option make it a one use skill and in 2vs2 prevent the same player from being EMPed twice or EMPed and Atom smashed. With increasing the Delta Armor to +8 defense and resistance would help the non passive armor classes better fight against the passive armors classes with the Delta Armor.


It is a player choice to get the armor or not but not to improve it for the ones that did get it because many players that don't have it or just reuse to get it is no reason not to make improvements so the ones that have it can put the tank based players emp hording players in their place.

Post edited. ~Mecha



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