RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/15/2012 14:20:39)

@Khalidon.

The 20% EP means a 20% EP regain.

Say an opponent hits you with 23 damage...

you gain 4.6, or 5 Energy Points while also gaining 25% more rage gain from the hit than normal.


This is meant for a way for mercs to become more challenging in 1v1.


Say a strength BM fireballs a merc for 46 damage.


The merc will gain 9.2=9 energy points and a huge amount of rage points. The 9 EP and rage gain COULD be enough to gain a Rage Bunker, which is deadly to Strength BM.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/15/2012 14:53:47)

I've been pondering around with revamping passive Armors, asked few people for opinions before posting few days ago so I can edit it properly but now I wanna see what you guys think of it! :D

First off, since Plasma Armor is staying, this convienced me to do a revamp and see if it's good to lower their power and allow CHs to be more creative, or same case for all the classes actually. Here it goes:


Plasma Armor:
Passively reduces incoming Energy damage by x%:

Lvl 1: Reduce Energy damage by 2%
Lvl 2: Reduce Energy damage by 4%
Lvl 3: Reduce Energy damage by 6%
Lvl 4: Reduce Energy damage by 8%
Lvl 5: Reduce Energy damage by 10%
Lvl 6: Reduce Energy damage by 12%
Lvl 7: Reduce Energy damage by 14%
Lvl 8: Reduce Energy damage by 15%
Lvl 9: Reduce Energy damage by 16%
Lvl 10: Reduce Energy damage by 17%


So basically how it'd work, reduction, is: Total Damage BEFORE defences - whatever the reduction is - resistance = damage dealt. So let me use an example:
70 damage - 17% reduction (12 damage) - 24 Resistance = 34 damage dealt.

So here we go, you can technically keep it at about Lvl 6 which is fair and not forced for max, or even lower if you wish so, or go for higher if you want a Tank build. 17% reduction may seem big but I'll use 2 examples here:
Plasma Bolt dealing 70 damage - 17% damage reduction gives it 12 damage reduction, may seem a bit better as current Plasma Armor gives +11 Resistance instead. 12 damage reduction = ~48 Tech (possible with good Dex and high Technican)
Attack dealing 20-24 damage with +34 weapon - 9-10 damage reduction which is a bit lower than current Armor. 9-10 damage reduction = ~36-40 Tech (possible with average Dex and mid/high Technican)

That is at maxed Level, so you're putting in 10 skill points into one skill. If I use Level 6 for example instead, results are much better; still worth using but you get more skill points elsewhere:
Plasma Bolt - 9 damage reduction, on par with Lvl 8 Armor. May seem a bit but this is a skill, they get higher damage but cost Energy AND have cooldowns as well.
Attack - 7-8 damage reduction which is equal to Lvl 6-7 Armor.
So pretty much on par but not quite; efficiency goes down if you deal less damage because less damage is reduced rather than fixed 11 at Lvl 10 for current PA. So this is like a skill against high damage (high Str, high Support, abusing skills, etc) but less effective if you use balanced builds. So skill is balanced - can be good but has flows as well.
Also remember, skill isn't meant to be useful at Lvl 1 either but should be trained to be efficient so this is good example. And lastly, it's as efficient as Technican which is a skill not a passive but there's a difference - PA may be passive, but Technican also affects deflection rate as well as skills so no Tech bonus and being passive is almost equal to Tech bonus and being a skill. (new PA and Technican).

Please note, I'd like very same thing to happen to Mineral Armor but affecting Physical attacks. HA would be affected in the same way, but instead the %s would be a bit different as well as slightly stronger (% wise) due to being split:

Hybrid Armor:
Passively reduces incoming Energy and Physical damage by x%:

Lvl 1: Reduce damage by 1%
Lvl 2: Reduce damage by 2%
Lvl 3: Reduce damage by 3%
Lvl 4: Reduce damage by 4%
Lvl 5: Reduce damage by 5%
Lvl 6: Reduce damage by 6%
Lvl 7: Reduce damage by 7%
Lvl 8: Reduce damage by 8%
Lvl 9: Reduce damage by 9%
Lvl 10: Reduce damage by 10%


As of new CH skill tree:
Heal - Cheap Shot - Matrix
Plasma Armor - Static Charge - EMP
Multi - Conduction* - Plasma Grenade
Venom - Massacre - Shadow Arts

I fixed EMP and Matrix tiering so this isn't an issue + EMP can stay as PA isn't as effective, in fact as effective as good ol' Technican. Static Charge, currently at 29% and old one was 44% - thinking about it, old 44% would be too much so I'd say waybe 37% would be perfect; it's in the middle and makes it more effective as SC was nerfed due to Plasma so as Plasma is technically nerfed but effective, it can be buffed up. Also Stun and Venom swapped places too for correct fixing. 8% raise should allow you to get more Energy back. If you deal 50 damage before defences, you would regain 38% of it which is 19 Energy. So to get 50 damage, you need 16-20 damage and +34 damage weapon which isn't a lot of Str either and weapon can be any. That's much better, right? :)
SA would get a buff, I added +5% connection chance at Lvl 10 (1% per 2 Lvls) to give it a small buff whilst keeping it luck-based. This also helps SC to hit for CHs and for BHs, they have limited Energy and rely on BL so this goes well. :D
*Conduction was included some people seemed to like the skill. But Malf is good as it is now - you'd be left with no stat boosts nor stat debuffers but reducing/raising Def/Res only which wouldn't seem fair so I'm resting the Conduction idea here and skill could be used for some other class eventually or something.
And lastly, note guys that just like passive Armors do, the reduction would NOT be applied during rage attacks. Just like passive Armors aren't applied in rage attacks now, that wouldn't change to keep it fair.

Since TLMs would see it as a small nerf as well, Frenzy could get a small buff of about 5% as well to compensate for it. It was nerfed due to Smoke and Hybrid Armor back then and as one of them is gone and other could be revamped (at least in this case here), then it can be buffed just like SC can be.
Finally, I suggested change to Mercs' passive Armor but that doesn't change class would still be weaker. My suggestion to Mercs consists of better skill tree (better synergy) which is here: http://i45.tinypic.com/zairp.png - but since I explained it in my 1st post, I see no reason to re-post it here again.

Feedback welcome! (and sorry for the long post [8D])




khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/15/2012 15:01:38)

Trans, quick question:
Does the passive armor reduce damage before other defenses or after, since...(Example used Hybrid Armor)
Average attack at high levels before defenses start with damage at 50+/- (More often then not more then 50)
11% would be either 5 or 6 damage reduced (should be 6 since 5 and above should be rounded up).
If it's after defenses the damage would be at 25+/-
11% would be 3 damage reduced, which is very small.


NVM Just re-read your post and noticed it.

I would like the revamp since it penalizes high damage builds, rather then lower damage builds.
All in all; you have my support, Trans. :)




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/15/2012 15:14:06)

I prefer max at 20% just saying makes things easier to calculate things on the fly. I feel that this would make merc HA weaker than it already is. And also if we had the split be the total %s of strict value armor it would be at 9% each assuming we round it.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/15/2012 15:18:28)

But 9% at Lvl 10 would make Lvl 1 to be at 0%. Current HA has +1 more defence over focused ones (PA/MA) so I changed it to %s here to compensate for it. And I mentioned the fact Mercs are still UP so that'd still be subject to change depending on how and when they will be buffed. Split Armors have small boost over focused. :P
And I explained it over PMs, 17% is fine as it's 2 damage difference with example given above which is enough to make it still decent enough and also not weak. But 20% is always easier to calculate, just divide by 5! xD

I'll look into numbers more tomorrow probably, not bothered today as I must also revise for exams hence it took me 3 days to post this Zeoth. :P But thanks for the feedback anyway. :)




Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 2:09:08)

@Trans

I like it, it seems to be tweaked a bit from your PM, but i still like it. (Lol, i'm repeating myself)

@rayniedays56

Blockable dmg with block DoT seems harsh, i'd rather no crit so i could deal some DoT instead of letting my high EP-costing dmg to be blocked and dealt nothing.


My CH requests:

Static Charge on 40% (SERIOUS)

EMP/DM swap tier areas

New PA as Trans suggested

Rayniedays56's New Poison (reworked then it be awesome)

PG buffed a bit

SA reworked ( I'm with Aegis on the luck topic, it's outrageous having a luck passive)

That's it, not that much to ask i think.






drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 9:18:27)

I support Trans' idea, it would make those who spam damager stats or skills suffer. >:3

This may open up new build varieties in the PvP community.

However, I dislike the idea of reworking SA. Making SA improve connection chance is just begging for STR abuse, in my opinion.




ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 9:45:06)

Would be hard to have max SA and spam strength since max SA requires like 42 support.




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 9:48:45)

With Enhancements, everything becomes possible.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 11:41:07)

Well my logic behind it was - why need an Armor if they deal pitiful damage? Surely it's needed against heavy damage? Indeed, that's how %s would work with new passive Armors. ;) :D
And that buff to SA wouldn't do much - you do know Connection is applied on Attack? Attack AND SC (SC is normal attack, no EP cost but gives EP back) so it's pretty much that which is affected, not your all weapons. Would you reconsider that now since you know it? :P (or did you know before? o.o) And it's just 5% at Lvl 10, requirements can get in the way and enhancements are Varium perk most of the time, sure they allow you to do anything but you still get less stat in other area. :)




rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 11:50:08)

LOVE the idea TRANS! :) It would allow Cybers to be more competitive while also allowing other classes to compete with us! This is awesome!




khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 12:49:52)

Arevero, just wondering: What is the logic behind improving static charge to 40%?




rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 12:54:36)

I can answer for him...

ALL Cybers use SC. With the current nerf to it, we can barely gain 13 energy back. This was allocated because of the introduction to PA. With the PA nerf that Trans is suggesting, then SC can once more be buffed :)




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 12:55:31)

Back when the class was not that powerful, Static Charge was a decently balanced skill although it and Massacre were exploited in the same build.

I would say the problem is with Massacre, and that skill is coincidentally going to be replaced. Then perhaps Static Charge will be restored. Then there is the Malfunction issue though. That skill is a universal pain.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 13:10:38)

Yeah, thanks for answering that raynie. ^^ And it's 5% only, Frenzy is also receiving boost for sake of TLMs. Frenzy is basically SC but for HP and costs Energy.

Also these numbers are just suggestions to present my idea, it may seem a bit too much for some or fine, but ultimately it's Devs that decide it so this is nothing more but what I imagine the skill to be like, and use values to represent it. I did give Mercs change to HA as well, and I do know they are UP but I came to like raynie's idea of EP regain from Adrenaline although if it's per attack, it's quite OP to get 20% (SC can be blocked and gets only a bit more, and this with a Rage bonus here). Either lowering this OR making Rage attacks (any) regenerate % of damage as EP would be good, or HP if people wish so. :) (higher %s than raynie's suggested obviously xD)




liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 17:29:48)

How would you guys think if...

Static Charge was back to 40%
Still Blockable, as always.
Only Deals 25% or 0% Damage (You still get 60% Energy. you would just deal Less damage on attack) This way, it's like using an Energy Booster.

Edit: Changed to 40...I got a PM from an anonymous Person :3




Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 17:33:10)

Well 60% is WAYYYY to much. If 44% was demmed to much I can't imagine how things would go at with 60% and we still have some sort of PA. No thank you.




liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 17:48:28)

Wait one thing, correct me if I'm wrong but when I changed to Cyber, it had PA and the Static was at 60% and then it got Nerfed to 29%...Or was there another Nerf before that...? I remember it was at 60% one time...




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 18:03:07)

They had it at 60% when PA was introduced IIRC, this was overkill back then as CH could loop even worse than now! xP But 60% was with 80% defence ignored and if you multiply 60 by 0.8 (80%) then it's 44% and 100% defence ignored, it was just lowered to avoid confusions but Energy regen was the same. You can change it to 44% then, liy instead. Damage would somewhat compensate for the 44% but if not, then cooldown could be always raised to 3 turns instead and give it a bit higher damage (not 25% but somewhere near 50% maybe)? :) xD




liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 18:12:37)

Well, I wanted a bit lower Damage because basically, every CH build is "Spam SC" because it does the same Damage as a Strike+Energy Regain so really, there is no point of using Strike (Unless you have a special effect weapon but the effect is not 100% guarantee to happen while EP regain is) so if we got higher EP regain and lower Damage, this could allow CHs to think...Hmmmm...Should I get some Energy back so I can use a really strong Attack (Mass/Multi-Shot with High Dex) next turn or do I need to do Damage this turn? This will add skill and strategy to CH instead of the old "Spam SC+PA+Heal Build" most people use now...It might even lower CH's power but I'd trade that for some fun with the Class :)




xGreen Warriorx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 18:13:55)

I totally know why they nerfed static charge. When it was 54% or something cybers like me in team battles could have insane dex, multi-shot, have their partner get killed, static charge, get enough energy to multi two people, and then rage multi and do like 60 damage on each. It was EPIC! But not fair to other classes, so it got nerfed. :(

I don't notice really any variation in the energy you get back from static when you do 50 damage and when you do 3 damage... you always seem to get back between 14-16 with max static. More variation please??




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 18:16:57)

Regen works by calculating your total damage (Stats + weapon) and taking % from it and adding it to your Energy. This depends on weapon and your Str stat, the higher they are, the higher is the regen. Want a variation? Change weapon or stats. :P

And it was nerfed as the regen was too high with Plasma Armor, allowed too much tankiness and high damage output at the same time, whether it was Str build, Dex, or whatever. If decent steps are taken towards balance, skill can be buffed up but there must be limits on how much it can be buffed, at what penality, etc. ^^




liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 19:28:56)

CH really needs Technician (In exchange for PA). Now that you think about it, CH is the only Class without a stat Buff.

BH/BM has Reflex Boost.
TM has Technician.
Merc/TLM has Field Commander.




Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 20:26:18)

@ Liy

BM is the only class without an Energy Kill skill
TLM is the only class without a debuff

hell, BM's energy regain skill aka Reflex Boost can't even be seen as an Energy regain...


so your point is?




liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/16/2012 21:01:08)

My point is that all Classes should have a Buffer skill. CH's simply got removed as PA came. Most want it back. Heck, I could even settle for Depressed Support raising skill to maybe try a Support CH.

STR BMs are Glass. Reflex costs 9 Energy at level 1 and returns 15% Energy. Usually, you do 20 DMG to a STR BM with low STR yourself. I think it can pay for itself and some more "-.-




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