RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 18:56:04)

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=19573011

Balance Discussion V.1

Sorry guys, I should have kept my mouth shut at the time. 'n'

I take full responsibility for suggesting PA to Cyber Hunters..



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 19:35:16)

quote:

@liy010
You make fair point. Although I think stats should remain unchanged - eating weapons is enough IF it's made unblockable. It can change a lot if a build relies on given weapon. :) I shall edit it in a bit to reflect the change. Thanks! :)


Really, I think this only affects Support builds/Deadly Aim builds. I mean if you use it on a STR BM (Or any other Class) with Max DA, He'll just whack you with the staff (Or the primary) "-.-

Yes, I do think all stats are a bit OP so how about...

50% of all stats given from Gun and Aux :D

quote:

Idea for mercenary.
Make Atom smasher free and have it return half the energy dealt with to your energy. But give it a 3 turn cool down. Have double strike have 15% health regeneration.


Eh, No.
Yes, I know Merc is UP at higher levels and all but look. A Level 1 Atom Smasher usually takes 25 or so Energy on me with an AVERAGE (12-15) STR so that's about 12/13 Energy Back+Taking Away Energy
Look at Assim. At MAX Level it takes only a mere 12 Energy and returns 6. That'll be like a Static Charge that is a tiny bit weaker. My bad, that'll be a lot more stronger than Static Charge (Assuming they're both at level 1) and an EMP Grenade combined in 1 move.
Too OP >.>



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 20:50:19)

Like I said in the other thread... CH allready has it all, drop the EMP or nerf it...

People complain that BM/BH str abuse, but with a lvl 1 EMP stealing +30 energy, what else can we do?
I'm using a 5 focus BM and all I need is 1 EMP and I'm done



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 20:56:10)

quote:

People complain that BM/BH str abuse, but with a lvl 1 EMP stealing +30 energy, what else can we do?
I'm using a 5 focus BM and all I need is 1 EMP and I'm done


*Raises Hand* 25 Energy Here...I'm not using a Dex abuse build+PA+E Armor either...



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 21:04:10)

@Liy
Maybe 25% then?



rej -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 21:06:35)

No. Mercenaries have two direct passives currently. Implementing this would simply make them a more powerful version of Cyber Hunter.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 21:19:55)

Okay guys let's take it one step at a time:

1) What class needs to be fixed THE MOST right now?
2) What can we do to make it better?

Yeah, let's start with that.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/2/2012 22:43:32)

^
Mercenary.
A way to gain energy or health back through a passive or an attack.
FC Buff: Gives 15% of damage dealt to your health, does not stack with frenzy, works like bloodlust. Anyone?
Strength nerf: Have guns be like ranged weapons from AQ, a part of dexterity and strength. Azrael bot can either only be used once OR reduce it to 33%.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 2:42:02)

Oh I had my Mercenary post in previous thread, I'll paste it here again as people kinda skipped it. xD

How about buff to Adrenaline? It's quite useless in 1v1 and the Balance Team has said that if it doesn't do well, you will buff it. Perhaps making Adrenaline reduce enemy's rage by whatever it is at your level? So at Lvl 10, it gives you Rage 20% faster and you could make your enemy get it 20% slower too. In 2v2, it could be tougher but you could just split the effect of reducing between the two so 10% less each, unless there are 2 Mercs so they'd stack to maximum of 20% each on the enemy.

Make Atom unblockable and perhaps lower its power IF EMP has its power lowered. Both are as deadly at Lvl 1 but EMP is unblockable and Atom isn't. frogbones will tell you a bit about how it's been blocked in one fight. >.>

Or perhaps what could buff up Mercs is making Heal improving by Support again..? Not fully by Support, keep it how it is and improves by let's say 1HP/7-8 Support, and that's a buff for all Support builds as well as stat itself which needs a buff - I hope Team also remembers that they made a promise to buff it up after deflection was taken away?

And lastly, perhaps re-arranging skill tree would be good. It's okay now but hard to get to some skills which you might want and they are all the way at the bottom + you must waste 3-4 stat points into skills you don't want. For example Adrenaline, or Atom Smasher. TLMs have it much easier to get to Atom because skills on the way are all useful to them, no matter what build, and Mercs are like.. stuck.

My suggestion of re-arranged Merc skill tree:

http://i45.tinypic.com/zairp.png

It's just a suggestion but now, you can get to skills you want much easier. Of course, SS needs Berzerker and Bunker before you can get it but you can do Bunker + SS build with high Energy. Atom is now easier to get and so is Adrenaline; not literally easier but it gives you better choice to create other builds instead of old skill tree. I've also taken FC + Multi idea from TLMs as it seems quite good. But main point is - you can make builds quite easier now as you aren't restricted by having useless skills you won't use. SS build need Bunker and Zerker as I said but you don't have to use them, although Bunker can be used as life-saving skill if you even have it at Lvl 1 with Tech build for SS.
There's simply much bettter synergy between the skills and allows you to get better builds without wasting points elsewhere.
Opinions? xD

Image tags are not allowed. ~TG



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 3:32:21)

Finnaly heres the synergy post in Cyber Hunters as I said.

Even though people say that there is no synergy in the Cyber Hunter class, there is actually, just a bit more complicated then in other classes.
Lets start off with Strenght. Strenght influences Cheap Shot, Static Charge, Malfuncion, Venom strike and Massacre. I have put all those skills in this post because all of those skill will have a higher damage output with more Strenght. And what influences the rate of those attacks to get connected? It is Dexterity. As many of you have noticed, Cyber Hunters are extremly abusing both Dexterity and Strenght, Dexterity a bit more. In my case, I abuse Dexterity, I've got 136 Dexterity, and I ain't fully enhanted. If I were I could easily achiev another level of defense. Now, from what I've seen as a Cyber Hunter. I think that the optimal ammount of Strenght is 67 (16-20 primary/side arm). It provides 15 Energy back via Static Charge and a good offense, mixed with high Massacre it is deadly. That leaves out a lot of points to spend in other stats. In Technology, you don't even have to spend much, I've got 37+12 Technology and that mixed with a level 8 Plasma Armor and an E Tesla gives a really high Resistance of which 18 points is passive. Support is basicly useless as it only increases Malfuncion and Defense Matrix, so it is being kept only as an requirment following Massacre and Shadow Arts. Of which I have 28. Since I am a tanker I find 93 Health points enough to cover a 10+ rounds battle. Which happens a lot. I am then left with around 60 extra points which can be put in Dexterity and that Dexterity will get you to hit more often and block a lot more, and it works well with the passive bonus from Shadow Arts. And you don't even have to spend any points in Energy. Easy as that.
If you still don't understand the synergy. The synergy is between the stats, not between skills. And it is a really good synergy which makes us, the Cyber Hunters, be able to tank and have a moderate-high damage output without much effort.

There it is. Synergy in the Cyber Hunter class. Who said there were none?



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 3:37:05)

Wootz, I did.

And I said it just based off of the unblockable damaging skills in each class. I said there was no Synergy between the skills. Agree or disagree with that? (You can find my post about Synergy of all the classes in the last Balance Discussion Thread, around page 27).

Between stats though, every class is synergized then, because follow the universal build = synergized. CH are just...less synergized/more complicated, like you said, than other classes.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 4:07:40)

Yeah, and the skills. Most of them is basicly influenced by either Strenght or Dexterity. Atleast the offensive ones.



drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 5:38:35)

Luck Reduction Idea

How about this:

Once you have Blocked/Deflected/Criticaled, in the next turn, your base B/D/C chance is reduced by 5%. This would stop making luck so potent in battles. This affects ALL the chances, if you've Blocked, your Deflection and Critical chance is reduced as well.



MrBones -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 7:08:16)

quote:

Well, as I stated in other posts, to me the main problem is with the stats revelance. What I mean is that when a player choose strategically to have only base stats in support for example, putting all his points in strength, he should never start the battle.

Same goes for spamming any other stats while having based stats in the rest. If you have very high dex, you should block like crazy. But if you have high dex that means you will get deflected alot, and almost never start figths as you have low support. Low support should get crit alot too.

I see way too many situations where a player have 100 pts more in a stat and still get deflected/block/crit or don't start. Luck is out of control.

These are just general examples.

By removing the luck factor and having the 4 stats actually meaning something, figths would become more strategic and no class would be op. I am so tired of the nerfs. Of by doing this, the game would be less user friendly. The learning curve would be alot steeper for new player, especially of they wish to cater to a younger audience.



gangster a -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 7:11:44)

^ stop spamming .........

anyways on topic i think they should decrease blood lust which will help blood mages heal looping



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 7:45:08)

Decreasing blood lust though will affect the Bounty Hunter community. I think they need a new passive, which grants health and energy.


Here is a Skill


(Blood Frenzy) *replaces bloodlust*

Adds a percentage of the damage you inflict towards your health and energy.

Scaling:

4% health and 3% energy
6% health and 6% energy
8% health and 9% energy
10% health and 12% energy
12% health and 14% energy
13% health and 15% energy
14% health and 16% energy
15% health and 17% energy
16% health and 18% energy
17% health and 19% energy


Meaning that if the Bloodmage hits at 35 damage, they will gain, at a Max blood frenzy:


6 health regained and 7 energy regained.



If they hit with a raged critical fireball (roughly 60 damage) then it becomes.....


10 health regained and 11 energy regained.



gangster a -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 7:48:45)

^thats not a bad idea but then tac mercs would have to have blood lust since they havent any passive



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 8:24:30)

Tactical Mercenaries have Mineral Armor and Reroute. Cybers have PA and SA. BH's have Blood Lust and SA. Tech Mages have DA and Reroute. Mercs have Hybrid Armor and Adrenaline. BM's have DA and Bloodlust.

Bloodlust gives too much synergy to BM. PA gives to much tankiness to Cybers. Adrenaline is a horrible, not worth it buff to Mercs. Bloodlust os perfect for Bounty Hunter. Tactical Mercenary is pretty balanced. Tech Mages need a slight nerf on the synergy in Tech Builds, although they are pretty balanced.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 8:59:07)

well we could also make a whole new passive for ch called defensive strike. for each strike u land a barrier comes on for 1 turn barrier turns off once your opponent turn is over. this will limit the tankyness of ch class but problem here is it would encourage str builds and dex build still. cyber will now not have all round resis if this passive is made and they need to strike in order to keep the their tankyness thus preventing them from using emp+tank build and thus emp does not need to be touched but only problem here is if the devs are willing to change plasma armor.

defensive strike
weapon requirement:none
stat requirement: none

add resistance when landing a strike(strike= normal atk.does not stack with static charge)

Level 1:+5 resistance
Level 2:+6 resistance
Level 3:+7 resistance
Level 4:+8 resistance
Level 5:+9 resistance
Level 6:+10 resistance
Level 7:+11 resistance
Level 8:+12 resistance
Level 9:+13 resistance
Level 10:+14 resistance

note:strike must hit in order to activate the barrier. block= barrier fail to go up. this skill only applies for strike and strike only does not stack with other skills like cheapshot or mass.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 11:33:41)

@raynie
Or rather than BL gives them synergy, I say it's DA which gives them synergy with Gun more more unblockable damage with abusive Strength. BL is fine, DA isn't. I still say Aux-version of DA would be better - lowers synergy and allows Support builds to exist within the class and deal good damage; their Support-based skills aren't damaging but Shields and Intimidate. :P
Also I think changing BH's BL isn't needed. I don't see BHs complaining about lack of Energy as they do have ways around it, and fact they cannot spam skills continously means that Energy wouldn't be needed as much in my opinon. But that's just me! :)

Anyone caught this in other thread yet? From Ashari:
quote:

quote:

Lastly, passives can be used to judge the power of a class since they are 99% used in builds, depending on which passives a class has, is key in judging the overall power of the class.

This suggests a problem that passives may be too useful when 90% of builds employ one or both of a class's passives, as is often the case. The passives do have a unique purpose that supplies a constant bonus throughout the battle, whereas active abilities supply a bonus only on the turns used.

If the case is that passives have become a must for any build, then there might be a problem in that they are too strong when you are required to have the passives to be viable. The point of the skill trees is to provide flexibility and choice in battle. Passives that are practically required in every build definitely reduces your options and makes most duels play out the same way and that's something that could use an overhaul. They are definitely an aspect of EpicDuel's combat that need revisiting, but removing them outright isn't the goal.

Most of the passives should probably be weakened so they don't overshadow active skills as much as they currently do. Deadly Aim and Adrenaline are at a level I could consider acceptable for passives, but the two biggest offenders are Reroute and Bloodlust which are practically required in 100% of builds.

I can't say anything definite is planned for the passives yet, but it's something I'll discuss with the development team for upcoming balance changes.

I think bolded parts are definitely good for those who have problems with Plasma Armor. So we may not see Plasma getting removed but definitely revamped to NOT restrict you to use it and have advantage but to give you an edge at cost of having less skill points in other skill. This applies to TLMs as well and possibly Mercs, although Merc's HA ain't that strong when split so yeah. :)



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 11:41:56)

Been playing as Merc now... again... for about 2 weeks. And this Delta Knight armor have made it so much better. A item cant balance a class, obviously, but now I actually stand a chance vs most kind of builds. If Adrenaline get somewhat of buff, I think Merc will be the first strategy-based class since beta [:)].. Well TLM is also pretty strategic :P

As Im not really "into" how rage works, I cant really give any suggestions how to improve Adrenaline, but as it is now it is a pretty useless skill. Its actually quite often my enemies rage before me even though I use a level 5 Adrenaline [:-]



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 11:43:54)

@Oba
How about this:
quote:

How about buff to Adrenaline? It's quite useless in 1v1 and the Balance Team has said that if it doesn't do well, you will buff it. Perhaps making Adrenaline reduce enemy's rage by whatever it is at your level? So at Lvl 10, it gives you Rage 20% faster and you could make your enemy get it 20% slower too. In 2v2, it could be tougher but you could just split the effect of reducing between the two so 10% less each, unless there are 2 Mercs so they'd stack to maximum of 20% each on the enemy.

This solves the problem of enemies raging before you, or at least considerably slow them down. ;)



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 11:55:21)

Yea that sounds pretty cool. But as I said I dont know how you gain rage and so on [:D] But having the opportunity to slower your enemies rage while getting it a little faster youself, yea it does sound good :P



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 12:11:04)

I have little idea about it too. xD Although it could be more Support based; affected more by it, but I ain't no good with complex stuff so.. xP



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/3/2012 18:25:59)

I am using a Focus build and here is it's most severe problem:

If I have 100 stat points allocated into Strength, Dexterity, Technology, and Support... and at level 34 I have a total of 132 stat points to dispense... that means I have a maximum of 32 stat points to allocate freely. That means the most health that one can administer is 111 points. Not much choice there especially if 95+ health is common, leaving 5th Focus players with approximately SEVEN remaining stat points to dispense... for any class.

At the very least, enhancements should be able to spec health points or energy, if not equipment.



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