RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/5/2012 22:37:10)

Technician... not coming back to replace PA, not enough Resistance.




Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/5/2012 22:40:28)

quote:

Plasma Armor -> Technician
Plasma Grenade buffed (in terms of damage, way too low right now)
Multi-Shot replaced by an Energy Multi that improves with TECH.

I like the 2nd idea, but the 1st and 3rd idea would give a lot of synergy.




Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/5/2012 22:54:45)

Finally we are back into discussing CHs :D

I support Joe, and prior to what Scarlet said, CHs aren't as OP as you think, if you try a good build, you will win against a CH, especially those which doesn't use 'OP' builds >.>

Also PG needs a buff, PA needs to be taken out, Multi can stay as it is, but if a lot of CHs really wants to change it, then so be it, but i think Multi-Shot is fine as it is.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 5:34:20)

CHs aren't OPed for you because you might be relying on build that uses little to no Energy. Sure that's much easier as their EMP does nothing to you whilst your damage output is high either way. Also why do players keep thinking Plasma will leave? Is it that hard to read Lycus' post where he said this will NOT be done? -.-
Anyone has read Ashari's post where she said she will discuss passives (all) and there might be a revamp if needed, that is to all passives including the Armors. We can hope the outcome of discussion will be yes. Quoting the post:
quote:

quote:

Lastly, passives can be used to judge the power of a class since they are 99% used in builds, depending on which passives a class has, is key in judging the overall power of the class.

This suggests a problem that passives may be too useful when 90% of builds employ one or both of a class's passives, as is often the case. The passives do have a unique purpose that supplies a constant bonus throughout the battle, whereas active abilities supply a bonus only on the turns used.

If the case is that passives have become a must for any build, then there might be a problem in that they are too strong when you are required to have the passives to be viable. The point of the skill trees is to provide flexibility and choice in battle. Passives that are practically required in every build definitely reduces your options and makes most duels play out the same way and that's something that could use an overhaul. They are definitely an aspect of EpicDuel's combat that need revisiting, but removing them outright isn't the goal.

Most of the passives should probably be weakened so they don't overshadow active skills as much as they currently do. Deadly Aim and Adrenaline are at a level I could consider acceptable for passives, but the two biggest offenders are Reroute and Bloodlust which are practically required in 100% of builds.

I can't say anything definite is planned for the passives yet, but it's something I'll discuss with the development team for upcoming balance changes.

Bolded bits apply to you, CHs. Plasma will stay but as 'Shari said, it shouldn't be a must to have it to win but rather to give you variety. So something along the power of Adrenaline and Deadly Aim - you don't have to have them to win, but it's good for some builds. Might be the very case for passive Armors and such. And remember, if Plasma was revamped and given less power in some way, that means SC can get a buff so CHs without Plasma could also get a decent build without being penalised.




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 5:42:49)

Plasma Armor...

What if it reduces a % of DMG done, instead of giving passive defense directly?

LV10 gives 15% DMG resistance.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 6:00:05)

Then we must do the same to Mineral, I suppose. The revamp will take care of all passives, including HA probably, but idea is good. It would be useful but also not a necessity to win, so you would have variety rather than a must skill and destroyed skill (SC). We can only then want SC to be buffed back up again, as if they rebalance passive Armors, there's no reason to leave SC weak and weaken passives either (no sense)!
%s for reduction could be based on how much damage we may deal with weapons and skills, and they'd find the average we deal so they could adjust the power properly to be useful.

Also I really do hope CHs get changed quickly, it's a pain to fight CHs in 2v2.. Or more like a cruel joke. -.-




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 6:04:22)

Heh, it's a cruel joke to fight them in Solo and Juggernaut too.

Actually... I think the DEVs should sacrifice two months a year to work solely on balance. But that wouldn't happen. XD




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 6:06:07)

But other Devs cannot do anything. It's only Balance Team, others are coders, writers, art, etc. Match-ups are also fun, either much lower Level or non-Variums vs Varium.. e.e




drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 6:08:30)

True enough... I forgot the team was divided into sections.

They should also try to work out the kinks in 2v2. Especially runners. >.<




Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 10:59:20)

2v2 has been and always been unbalanced the devs/ balance team will take years to make it balance imho 2 months a year is not even enuf. yup ch take ages to beat and playing a ch is so boring in 2v2. it is slow( very slow) and it is like u r making your enemy suffer to just get a win XD talk about slow death.dont get me wrong i like long battles because it is fun but vsing 2 in 2v2 ch just takes way too long. it is like vsing 2 heal loop mages in 2v2 back in beta... hmm maybe not 2 hl mages take even longer to beat XD.




Clavier -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 12:10:30)

I have some thoughts. Mercs reign back at beta, but why do they have problems now? They used to beat BHs and TMs. To fight a health or energy regain class back at beta was fine for them.




khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 12:43:47)

1) Support was nerfed ALOT (Field medic no longer improving with support & deflection reduction being moved to technology) as support mercenaries reigned supreme in beta 2v2.
2) Hybrid Armor was split into defence and resistance, making mercenaries no longer strong in 1v1 (and in 2v2 but to a higher extent in 1v1) and meant that they took more damage from their foes. Which now is a bigger issue with the addition of the 3 new classes.

Also back in beta, when we fought tech mages, if we had the first turn we would usually win due to the fact that we could switch between +12 defense or resistance.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 13:51:54)

Support was not nerfed, it is still effective as all ways. Today I fought beside a non varium suppot tact merc against 2 cyber Hunters, support at 141 (29-35), he got 53 critical damage with aux they took away his energy not only one but twice but like always I had boosters and at the right time I game him not one booster but two, he did artillery strike and got 47 damage on one and 53 critical damage on the other while with me having higher dex than his support I got 41 on one and 43 on the other but because we worked as a team with two multis we won the match.

The merc classes are far from being underpowered and support was never nerfed, you may say not improving field medic with support was anerf to support but actually it was a nerf to field medic. Tech only did resistance and improves skills but support did way too much and it had to change so only choice they had was moving deflection to tech.

If you are a merc and having problems deflecting they make a support tech build then you will have you deflection back. In 2vs2 get away from that useless 1vs1 builds come up with 2vs2 builds and work as a team and don't go in there with support lower than 87 (20-24) then complaining it is not strong enough, when you still getting upper 30s to lower 40s at that level.

Well on to balance
Whatever they did with reflex boost it is working more efficient now but still has a joke of energy regain, they fix that it will benefit two classes but I rather see the Blood Mage get my Guardian skill idea.

EMP - should only be a one use skill and not on the same player more than once in a match so if a Hunter uses an EMP on a player the second hunter can't use another EMP on the same player.

Atom Smasher -same as EMP with an exception of being blocked but once successfully used it can't be used again especially on the player that got their energy drain once already.

EMP and Atom Smasher were to help in battle but not give an unfair advantage as they do know.

Plasma rain still needs adjustments to how it scales especially with level 35 cap on the horizon or come up with a new type of multi for the Blood Mage that still improves with dex.

Weapons - all weapons need to be brought up to standards and all weapons, primaries to Aux either needs requirements remove or have requirements in the appropriate places with the appropriate stat amount. They want to put and end to stat abusing how can weapons have 10 slots and no requirements stop any stat abusing it appears more they are playing favoritism.

Armor - The Delta Armor is great, well done, but it does give an unfair advantage to the ones with Passive armors so as a challenge to programming staff put in the Delta Armor program the code where it gives +8 defense +8 resistance to the classes without passive armors, let us see how good you are.




King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 14:06:02)

Hun Kingq,

A Passive Armor is about equal to 50 stat points, and the armor is currently about 40. Total: 90
If it was +8, that would be about 70 stat points. Total: 70.

However, that is not a good move. Classes without Passive Armors are generally much more aggressive (Str BM, Caster TM, Str BH), and pairing that with just about 20 less stat points would be overcompensation for there defensive pitfalls, thus leading to those classes becoming OP, and all other armors going to the brink of extinction.

Tesla: 9 Def OR Res.
Your revamped Delta: +8 of Each, total +16!

CH Suggestion: Plasma 'Nade improves with Dex and +10 damage, same for Stun, but with Tech.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 14:13:23)

Guys, just ignore him. Arguing will create pointless posts because he's always right and we're not, and let's carry on with our previous discussion which isn't one sided (aka buff to BMs) but we take other classes into it. It'll do us all better and not clog up the thread. :D

Hun, you've been told by AKs to not force your views on others. If you disagree, do it one post with a feedback rather than blab about the same thing over and over without end. We don't need constant flaming, so seriously stop rubbing in our faces your bugs, how BMs are UP, how you thing Mercs are strong (even Balance Tracker shows so and many players give feedback), and how you're always right with no proof given. Stop, seriously.




rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 14:21:19)

TRANS!!!


Now that I have ur attention, I would like to stay on topic :P


I have been seeing less and less of the Strength Bloodmage...


:O Have they finally found out we know how to beat 'em?


And removing Cybers EMP is like removing Tace Mercs Atom or BM's plasma cannon (deadly)




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 14:23:06)

quote:

What if it reduces a % of DMG done, instead of giving passive defense directly?

LV10 gives 15% DMG resistance.


Is that not in essence what an armour does?




Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 14:39:54)

If not removing EMP from CyberHunters, they should at least put it back at eather Tier 2 where it belongs or somewhere else...

quote:

I have been seeing less and less of the Strength Bloodmage...
:O Have they finally found out we know how to beat 'em?


I prefere my 5 Focus Tank BloodMage...




ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 15:42:41)

Go ahead and get rid of emp. I think most ch's [myself included] Barely ever use it any way, or move it to teir 2 or 3.




fhiz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 15:42:59)

Energy control.

In my opinion, assimilation is the only balanced energy drain skill.

Emp and Atom smasher are way out of whack.

Emp first, I think it should be changed to a 3 turn cool down just like assimilation. A lot of people think it should be a once per battle skill, but I don't. That would be way to under powered. Any sensible energy reliant build should carry 2 energy boosters=50 energy. Unless the cyber hunter is a massive tech abuser, then the Emp will not take away 50 energy. An extra turn of cool down would allow you more time to build up rage and use it with whatever powerful skill you chose. Also with a 3 turn cool down they won't be able to synchronize it with static charge. They would be forced to chose between the two skills. My second fix for Emp is that it needs to be a fixed amount again like assimilation. Of course whatever this amount is, it should be higher then assimilation because it doesn't return energy to the user.

My fixes for atom smasher are slightly less drastic for 3 reasons. 1)It's a tier 4 skill 2) It requires a club 3) It can be blocked.
Onto the fixes. I think it should be a 3 turn cool down to keep it on par with my previous suggestions. And last The percentages should be lowered.

All I have said would make it so Atom smasher is the only of the 3 energy draining skills that isn't a fixed amount. It's my opinion that Atom smasher should do the most damage because it can be blocked and it doesn't give back energy, which to me seems fair and balanced.


So there's my thoughts on energy control. For anyone who reads it, I'd love any thoughts or feed back.




Rarest -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 15:46:23)

I personally don't think any builds are OP. They all lose to certain builds, and all win to certain builds. Every build destroys one class, and gets destroyed by another. It's skill that and customization which makes a build OP, but then, it isn't really OP, they are just skilled.




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 16:00:22)

quote:

I personally don't think any builds are OP.


I do not think so either. But what I do find overpowered, are the numbers in some skills and the synergy between 2 or more skills. Such as how Technician boosts Super Charge, Reflex Boost boosts Multi-Shot, or how Field Commander boosts Frenzy.

Then we take those skills and either nerf them, but what I definitely prefer first is replacing skills and then comparing the different skill trees and determining from past battle tracking which skill tree was least exploitative.




Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 16:37:38)

You have my attention now! :P
Yeah there's less of them as more try Focus 5, or Energy-based which is nice for a change; Str BMs have similar power to those Dex/Tech BMs so it's personal choice. It's a good thing and balances it out in the end.
I doubt they will take EMP out, are you that serious that they will take it out because few players want so? All I want is CHs to have fixed tiering - EMP and Matrix swapped around, Venom and Stun Grenade swapped around - Stun is weak so making it Tier 4 was a joke to start with. Since it's Tier 3, it should have power of BH's Stun Grenade if not already, and it's useful. Sure it may not do as much damage but it has Stun - I utilise Dex on my TM and have Overload and Multi. Sure Overload isn't as strong as Plasma Bolt but Stun makes up for it, it may not happen as often but definitely useful & Tier 3 justifies its power rather than Tier 4 where Ultimate skills belong.
So basically this:
Heal - Cheap Shot - Matrix
Plasma - Static Charge - EMP
Multi - Malfunction - Plasma Grenade
Venom - Massacre - Shadow Arts




Rarest -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 16:41:32)

Is my testy build with 225Tech OP? :l




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/6/2012 17:04:12)

Duel Domination, I look at each individual stat and what each individual thing does. Does all the stats combined give you defense or resistance, no. Does all stats combined give you power to either aux or sidearm, no.

Add the points that of the passive armors to the Delta Armors and tell me who benefits and who has the unfair advantage, do the math and tell me who has more points in defense, resistance or both and maybe you and others will see the unfair advantage. Since you want to total points then tell everyone after you do the calculations if the Blood Mage, Tech Mage, or Bounty Hunter will have more total defense and resistance points with +8 on defense and resistance over the +5 on defense/resistance the Merc, the tact merc, or the Cyber Hunter, with passive armors, total points they will have?

They put points on both defense and resistance to benefit all classes but it gave an unfair advantage to the classes with passive armors over the classes without passive armors, do the calculations and see for yourself.

Trans, In my opinion, your post # 89 should be removed by the mods due to it has nothing to do with balance but an inadvertent attack on me and what I think needs to be balanced or adjusted. I have never been told anything you mention by the mods because I do not force my views on others. I post my ideas and suggestions and you and others attack me over and over again, which you have been warned once before. I posted once and this is twice in the new balance discussion to give an update of what is working better but still needs to improve and what still needs to be improved. You know that both Blood Mage and Tech Mage have Plasma Rain, on that note, show me where I may any suggesting buffing the Blood Mage class. Because mercs and tact mercs are using 1vs1 build for everything they can’t get accurate data from all skills used so it may appear that mercs and or tact mercs are underpowered but they are not I seen a merc use max berzerker on a players with 50 health and took that player out, tell if that is underpowered. With the right amount of support their aux and Artillery strike are as deadly as they have always been.

Well in a recent 2vs2 match I was hit with an EMP not once but three times while he was able to use static charge over and over again to regain his energy to do skill attacks over and over again as well as heal three times, I won the match anyway but it was annoying to get EMP over and over again wasting two boosters costing me credits where the Cyber Hunter spends no credits on Boosters.


As I posted earlier this is what I think still needs to be fixed:

Whatever they did with reflex boost it is working more efficient now but still has a joke of energy regain, they fix that it will benefit two classes but I rather see the Blood Mage get my Guardian skill idea.

EMP - should only be a one use skill and not on the same player more than once in a match so if a Hunter uses an EMP on a player the second hunter can't use another EMP on the same player.

Atom Smasher -same as EMP with an exception of being blocked but once successfully used it can't be used again especially on the player that got their energy drain once already.

EMP and Atom Smasher were to help in battle but not give an unfair advantage as they do know.

Plasma rain still needs adjustments to how it scales especially with level 35 cap on the horizon or come up with a new type of multi for the Blood Mage that still improves with dex.

Weapons - all weapons need to be brought up to standards and all weapons, primaries to Aux either needs requirements remove or have requirements in the appropriate places with the appropriate stat amount. They want to put and end to stat abusing how can weapons have 10 slots and no requirements stop any stat abusing it appears more they are playing favoritism.

Armor - The Delta Armor is great, well done, but it does give an unfair advantage to the ones with Passive armors so as a challenge to programming staff put in the Delta Armor program the code where it gives +8 defense +8 resistance to the classes without passive armors, let us see how good you are.




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