RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (Full Version)

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BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 0:03:17)

Imo they should change the skill SA completely.
It's weak, but worse, when active it's too annoying and just change the whole game.

Change SA, make BH better than a spammy class, and it's safe to nerf CH afterward.

Also get rid of the stun bonus on SA and buff all of stun skills.
I think stun skills should work like this:

Use stun skill
- If stun deal X damage and stun
- If not deal Y damage (Y>X)

So it should be more reasonable to use stun skills as an actual combat skill



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 0:25:23)

@bluekatz Passives aren't supposed to be any better than any other skill in the game. I believe Ashari stated that she felt DA and SA Adrenaline were actually the most balanced Passives out there so far.

Edit: Ah, my bad. Adrenaline, not SA. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/fb.asp?m=20292218



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 0:53:31)

Not sure how DA is balanced.

It's got same requirements as Shadow Arts.

So let's see, a level 5 Deadly Aim or a level 5 Shadow Arts?

Aka

+8 Gun Damage or +5% Block/Stun chance?

No contest. I'll take the 8 extra damage. So if DA is balanced, SA must be UP.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 1:06:28)

Funny hearing that when they don't intent to balance the other passives.
Ironically, OP passive is the only way for players to create creative builds. Let's face it, if Passive aren't OP, we will stick with 1 power builds and spam MP skills and that's it. Classes have limited amount of skills, and a without passive we will have a very limited amount of builds.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 2:11:09)

Thing is DA is a FIXED amount of power, whereas SA is...Luck-based.

Also Massacre isn't OP at all when you compare it with other skills, it can't do anything special, or defense ignore, or improves with anything.
Basically, if we going to get new ultimates, now would be pretty good.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 2:19:18)

Now anything would be good. DA balanced? I'll take DA over adrenaline anyway of the YEAR. I'd rather have fixed freaking damage over some luck based bullcrap. God I can't stand seeing that skill even being in the skill. All evolved classes are 90% recycled. One or two have more than 1 unique skill BM and CH. also passive armors do not count I considered those recycled renamed merc skills.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 2:45:36)

Come to think of it:

CH has three new skills: Plasma Grenade (rework of Stun Grenade), Static Charge, and Plasma Armor (formerly Technician).
TLM has two new skills: Mineral Armor (formerly Hybrid Armor 1.0), Toxic Grenade, Frenzy.
BM: Fireball, Plasma Cannon (no passive armor).

Since Plasma Armor was Technician, and Mineral Armor was Hybrid Armor 1.0 (Right now we have Hybrid Armor 2.0 as I'm calling it), each class really got only 2-2.5 new skills. Now that I think about it, it seems a little low. I would have been expecting like out of the 12 skills in each tree, at least like 4 or even 6 skills to be new. But that would just be horrendous coding nightmare....


Ah well. I'll see if I have time tomorrow to look over all the skill in Epicduel and rebuild the classes. Probably not, but let's see if I have time tomorrow. If anyone else wants to rebuild the classes from scratch by taking all the skills in Epicduel and making the skill trees for CH, TLM and BM, go ahead. I probably won't do it.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 3:03:03)

Guess I'll reconstruct the CH skill tree I'll label the classes the skills come from

Universal-BH-BH
New-New-TM
BH-TM-BH
New-BH-BH

As you can see the CH has 6 recycled BH skills and 2 recycled TM skills 3 new skills counting passive armor again
On to TLM

Universal-Merc-New
BH-Merc-Merc
TM-New-Merc
Merc-Merc-New

Same here 6 recycled Merc skills 1 Tm skill and 1 BH skill 3 new skills counting passive armor.
On to Blood Mage

Universal-New-BH
New-BH-TM
TM-Merc-TM
BH-TM-TM

5 recycled TM skills 3 recycled BH skills 1 merc skill and 1 new skill.
Anybody seeing a pattern?
I'm a little iffy on BM skill tree as I've never used it.
Typed on my IPhone I apologize for any grammar and spelling errors.



Arevero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 7:06:35)

I know this topic has been brought up before, but it occurs the options that you have as a Non-Varium player.

Since i have started playing ED, i was Non-Var through to lv31. I used Exile Soldier throughout that time, and it was hard to change to more unique ones due to the shortage of Armors for Non-vars.

Competing against a Var, when you are Non-var, is often hard, and Armor choices brings those Non-vars down, so does ENH. Staff needs to add a new, Non-var armor, that isn't seasonal or rare, but all-time purchasable. Perhaps raise Defences to 8 for non vars.

Another thing is the ENH, the prices should be lowered to attain balance between Vars and Non-Vars. ENH can often bring a huge difference during battle.

I have introduced ED to some of my friends, they love it, so do I, but the ever-ending limit as a non-var to a var should be closed a bit, there is a significant gap between those two. As a Varium Player, i can ENH, get better Armors, better weapons, and much more versatile builds than a non-var. Pitting those advantages against Non-vars almost completely makes Var players OP.

And yes, i know Varium is meant to make a significant advantage to it's buyers, but ED is a great game, i want others to see that, and to promote it a bit, give Non-vars a slight 'buff'. Not complaining, just a thought that it's tiem to give Non-vars some treat. [:D]



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 7:14:51)

BloodMage is the only evolved class without a new attack. Plasma Cannon = Bunker Buster. Fireball = Plasma Bolt. Some new, Support?-improving moves would really help it out.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 12:00:07)

^
Possibly, but BM is a very offense oriented class, support is more of a help you out stat. Not as useful as it once was, which technically is a nerf Hun King can get out with his statement that support hasn't gotten a nerf. The point is you could say Toxic Grenade is a revamped grenade.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 15:45:48)

After playing as merc for about another week, rage really need to get reworked... its pure... bull****. Even though I use lvl 5 Adrenaline I rarely rage before my enemy. I aint putting stats in this skill anymore before I see some change to either the skill or rage. What really pisses me off is when a STR BloodMage rage before me... they should get decreased rage when attacking for abusing a stat like this -.-



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:26:00)

What if rage were to be calculated like this:

How does the Rage Meter fill up?

Rage is accumulated on the player's turn, the amount of rage determined by the sum of the Defense and Resistance of the opponent. Connecting an attack for 3 damage (the minimum), gives a bonus to rage for the attacker.

How many points are required to fill the Rage Meter?

The base amount of rage = 145 (a level 1's Defense + Resistance total then multiplied by 10) (150 - 5 for the requirements of the calculation)

Rage Total = 145 + (5 * player level)

How is rage calculated?

Rage is calculated at the start of a player's turn. The amount of rage points gained is equal to the sum of enemy's Defense and Resistance. There is also a bonus to rage from Support. The amount of rage gained from Support is equal to the player's Support value divided by 4.

Example:

Player A vs Player B

Player A: 28-34 +1 Defense / 22-27 +13 +9 +1 Resistance

Player B: 25-30 Defense / 25-30 Resistance

It is Player A's turn...

Player A's rage bonus = 25 + 25 (= 50 rage points)

...

It is Player B's turn...

Player B's rage bonus = 29 + 45 (= 74 rage points)

SO, at about level 30 to 34, Player A would receive rage at approximately every 6th turn and Player B would receive rage at approximately every 4th turn.

How much of a bonus is a 3 damage connection?

Connecting for 3 damage gives the player a bonus of their total rage divided by their player level.

Example:

Player A's total rage = 300

Player A Strikes for 3 damage...

Rage bonus = 300 / 30 (= 10)

How much more damage will a Rage attack inflict?

A rage attack is always critical

A rage attack ignores 50% of Defense or Resistance and ignores passive skills INCLUDING Reroute and Shadow Arts of the target of the rage attack.

See Critical Strike

Does rage accumulate when attacking?

NO. There is no reason to, this is a black and white format to specifically handle tanking builds without promoting just offense in PvP.





Please leave constructive criticism. Thank you.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:30:44)

^
Always a critical on rage? I don't think I'd like that. Some ridiculous high damage casters could just hold a 80+ damage bolt till rage bolt and do 60+ damage in a turn. It's way to lethal. Everything else is fine.



@Oba

Nothing is wrong with adrenaline, it's just the way Str BMs abuse the new rage system which gives a better bonus to attacking while the defender gets much less. Encouraging offensive, I would prefer fighting slow slow turtles ALL day over freakin str spammers.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:36:03)

This would be OK if skills did not annex with rage, but since they do, I will have to reduce the damage capabilities. Thank you for pointing that out Zeoth.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:41:03)

I just want a clarification, so your rage meter increases by strict values and are not affected by the support stat?
Also your also increasing the % of defenses rage ignores by 10% I believe and making it ignore other passive. Another question, so does BL annex with rage still if rage ignores all passives?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:46:36)

quote:

I just want a clarification, so your rage meter increases by strict values and are not affected by the support stat?


Ah! I forgot about that, thank you again, I will somehow tie Support into improving the rage gain.

quote:

Also your also increasing the % of defenses rage ignores by 10% I believe and making it ignore other passive.


Yes, up by 5% from 45%. I did not have a good reason to but exactly half is a clean number and I was not able to accept 45%. [:D]

quote:

Another question, so does BL annex with rage still if rage ignores all passives?


Yes, I should write that down more specifically; it ignores every passive of the target.



Zeoth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 16:49:48)

Okay that's all ^^ it's a very reasonable suggestion and you have my support on this.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 20:54:52)

@Depressed, I read your changes to how rage works and one thing that stood out was that you are basically doubling the time it takes to gain rage... The increase would be counter productive to offset tanks as currently it takes 4-5 turns to rage vs what you are proposing by making it take 10 turns to get rage...

I am going to say that I support CH losing EMP, currently they are the only class that has a mixture of a buff, a debuff, a passive armor, an energy gain and an energy drain... That combination is hard to counter! But, what do you replace it with? Giving them a buff skill is not going to work and any melee skill will improve the str builds. Another debuff won't work either, so it's hard to work out what could be swapped... I'm thinking maybe frenzy or double strike, they are blockable and cost skill points, but may require the tree to be shuffled and these skills canbe used in conjunction with strength...

Since they are called cyber hunters I was considering proposing a new skill called Virtual that would be used as a normal strike and would increase their support for 3 turns, the higher the level the more support gained. Since support isn't widely used on CH builds it may create some more diversity in their builds. Costs and improvements could be worked out, but it may be a solution to what to swap EMP for!



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:01:55)

@G00NY
An assimilate like skill for CH?



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:02:50)

I like that idea zman.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:17:51)

@zman, in my opinion assimilate is a very good skill it has 4 effects. It removes energy from the opponent, it gains energy for the attacker, it does normal strike damage and increases rage. On top of that it costs no energy to use. Giving CH a skill like that would be at the lower end of options as far as I'm concerned...



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:21:55)

^
Yes, but most CHs have a high level plasma armor and SC. If you switch EMP with DM then EMP with Assim it would be less useful. Lets say a CH wants max assimilate, SC, and PA, because of this he has just used up 30 of his stat points. Also it's an alternative to non-strength CH. Strength CH gain a lot more energy than non-strength CH, so now the non strength CH could use assimilate to make up for the lack of energy they gain with SC.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:38:39)

Ok, I can see where you are going, but assimilate would work really well on CH... Major drawback with using skills like atom smash and EMP is that they don't gain rage when using them...
Let's say a str CH trains a few points into assimilate (instead of shadow arts or heal). they use malfunction, static charge, assimilate, massacre and then rage cheapshot... I don't think it will solve the fact that the CH do very well vs mercenaries, bounty hunters and blood mages and it would actually improve outcomes vs mages and tactical mercs as using assimilate negates reroute to some extent...



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion VIII (5/9/2012 21:44:58)

^
Maybe make a special assimilate skill for CH.
It does not inflict damage (so no rage gain)
Skill Name: Integrate
At level 34:
Lv 1: -6 energy, gain 4
Lv 2: -7 energy, gain 4
Lv 3: -8 energy, gain 4
Lv 4: -9 energy, gain 5
Lv 5: -10 energy, gain 6
Lv 6: -11 energy, gain 6
Lv 7: -12 energy, gain 7
Lv 8: -13 energy, gain 7
Lv 9: -14 energy, gain 8
Lv 10: -15 energy, gain 9
It does no damage, is tier 2, and has a 4 turn cool down. Possibly a support requirement.
Energy regain is 3/5 rounded down.
This also helps make CH more unique.

EDIT: Revised, lower regain and longer cool down to prevent heal looping.



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