RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (Full Version)

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Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/12/2012 20:43:19)

Not if these weapons are costing around 100k credits.



Guppy -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/12/2012 20:47:32)

quote:

First of all: http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3566/tyuh.png


The amount of Varium you bought means nothing, they're not going to make Varium items buyable for large amounts of Credits. You and me both know that. They want people to buy Varium, it's true and understandable. This game isn't pay2win, yes, people who have Varium items get an advantage, but they're not impossible to beat. Which is completely fair. If they implemented that everyone who buys Varium would feel cheated out of their money since they could of just saved of Credits instead of buying Varium with real life money. /end



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/12/2012 20:58:03)

While i understand where you're coming from, it IS pay2win. If you gain any sort of mathematical advantage against another player by paying real life cash, it is pay2win. You pay money so that you can win more. Paying to win. However, people will be more likely to buy varium if they don't feel like they're being forced into it. There's a reason that a large number of older players have quit this game.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/12/2012 21:35:54)

I really wish wish that there could be a varium only and credit only counterpart to every equipment using a universal converter. Although I normally use UP or UU (underpowered or underused) builds, I try my best to craft ingenious strategies with them; aside from this, if I battle in PVP with a clearly unstable build and not thinking about strategy then I surely deserve to lose to an equally experienced free-2-play player of similar scale with respect to stats power. If that same person outwits me utterly then in no way should I have deserved to win. Regardless of equipment used, if I only had used Strike while he/she used Malfunction and Defense Matrix to tactfully render both my offence and defence to nil... I should lose. But this does not happen. Due to situational statistics advantages of equipment I am still more lucky, more powerful... more likely to win. This is not an equal push, and stats disadvantages should only come from game currency handling within the game itself, not from advantages of outside sources like my wallet. If the free-2-play opponent places a hefty sum of effort into perfecting their stat placement and countering my own tactics successfully while I do not, I want them to win... not me.

I say (and still say), that all purchasable items should have either 2 forms of payment... varium only... or an equivalent conversion of credit only. Equal opportunity in competition is key, rigged or handicapped competition is not equal opportunity, simple as that. Of course, we pay-2-players deserve some form of advantage for paying into EpicDuel. We receive a few already: time. It may not be a big as an issue in the eyes of some people (cough cough CAD), but to other people, playing for a total of 8 hours to obtain an in-game feature is inefficient and therefore that person if they have the money can save their time to directly obtain said items.

I also wish that the role of varium could move out of PVP and more so into PVP-unrelated features. Some examples include houses! Aside from interactive furniture (which in my opinion is still a neat idea), decking it out with animated renovations or creating a party atmosphere with lights and music is still and untouched idea but is potentially still open for discussion.

So to conclude, I agree with Xendran that PVP is not everything, since community is very much the other half of the game (like who appreciates a dominant PVP champion who treats others badly?), so I ultimately state my opinions on the matter to say that varium is not an element of true player versus player fun.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 0:23:55)

I also agree about trading varium with ingame credits
All varium players likes to promotional, rare and seasonal rare weapons
What if the developers make the permanent varium weapons with an additional option of credits only having credit cost of 100k

By this way they can earn money and the game wont be paytowin [8D]



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 0:24:10)

Also, i believe that some things should actually be changed from credits to varium. For example, armor coloring.

Varium option: Select part of armor, select color. Costs a small amount of varium.
Vredit option: Select part of armor, random color is chosen. Costs a small amount of credits. Retry if you dislike the color.

Cosmetic things like this (and BIKES! While some people dislike that some bikes are varium only, they are purely cosmetic and there SHOULD be a premium varium fee on the really fancy ones) should cater to the paying players.

People ARE willing to pay to stand out, and to look unique. Imagine how hard it would be to get a perfect 255/255/255 black with just credit rolls. Possible, but requires luck. Or you can pay a small amount of varium to just select it at will.


IMPORTANT EDIT: With varium and credit gear, im not saying that all varium weapons have to look the same as the credit ones, or even be the current ones, just that there should be a credit option. If you choose the varium option, not only should you save the time, but you should be rewarded with a better looking weapon for paying a premium fee. This further gives an incentive to purchase a varium item as opposed to a credit item. If this became available, credit weapons that have the stats of varium weapons but look significantly more dull, the gap between varium and non varium would not be there in terms of stats, but you would still know a varium player when you see one, decked out in sweet color-custom armor and giant intricate weapons.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 0:34:21)

@Xen I hope you have plans for enhancements if you want varium gear to be equal to 100k credit gear. Last time I checked, it would cost me 280k credits to enhance all my current gear on my alt.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 0:39:43)

@ Xendran

Bro looks is what that makes it an appreciable browser game apart from its PvP oriented game play

No player will like to look dull and waste even a tiny amount of credits in getting another random color look btw is it that u are telling way for the devs to earn?

It might happen due to a dull color selection, a non-varium player might stop playing ... and the worst part, no one would like to play a game looking dull !!



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 1:03:24)

Dull as in the way current non varium gear looks. Also, want to look nice and flashy? pay a little bit of varium, or test yoru luck in the armor shop with credits. Can't have everything in life free, yknow.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 1:16:24)

@ Xendran
Well introducing varium weapons to non-varium players is somewhere related to balance discussion as it is related to balancing the advantages of varium player over non varium
But I guess this color changing feature should be in suggestion thread not in balance discussion :/



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 7:54:03)

So what you guys are saying is that you want to completely take away the advantage you get from buying varium and make the difference cosmetic only? This is quite possibly and most definetly the STUPIDEST idea that I have heard in quite some time. You know what will happen if this is implimented? The game will DIE. Simple as that. Because nobody in their right mind will buy varium anymore. Hence the devs would no longer make money, and wouldn't be able to afford not to have jobs aside from this, and the game would fail. I am so tired of people hating on those of us who support this game. You like playing this game for free? good for you. But don't forget who makes it so you can.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 8:30:31)

@scarlet Tell me what you prefer. Do you prefer farming for over 100k credits to get the same item that a varium player can spend 900 varium on or do you prefer just spending the 900 varium for the weapon? Note: this would apply to all varium items out there if this was in-game. That means you would have to spend around 400k for all the varium gear at high levels. You would be surprised at how much money a game can make merely by cosmetic changes only. In fact, Transformice is in the middle of their Beta test on payments and the only thing you can buy in that game is cosmetic stuff. From what I see though, tons of people are hyped for it and every item can be bought for either F2P currency or paid currency, with paid obviously being a faster route to go.



Drianx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 10:03:06)

@Xendran - you're right, I 100% support your opinions.

Just one more thing to add about offering credit alternatives for stuff. There is a overlooked aspect of that.
Usually in MMO games there is something offered at one point - for example an overpowered weapon - which requires HUGE ingame work first. THEN comes the shortcut. In some cases, the shortcut is available from the start, alongside the "hard" way to obtain it.

So far, in ED everything was offered as varium shortcut from the start. That is why it is hard for people to understand that a "free" alternative must be offered too.

Basically, what I'm saying is that usually the hard way should come, and then the shortcut. Not the other way around.

Hence I think that from now on, first there should come a hardwork way to acquire an item, and then (maybe) a varium shortcut. Not shortcut first, otherwise it's hard not to annoy players who previously took the shortcut because they had no other option.

And of course, there is the whole bunch of optional stuff - boosters, cosmetic items and so on - that should be offered for varium. Also, I think there should also be varium-only missions - which should cost 1 varium only, and should reward reasonable amounts of credits or tokens. This would be some sort of membership actually but whatever.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 10:53:35)

@ndmallet So you are telling me that you don't think they would lose a MASSIVE amount of money if they did that? I know there would still be some people spending so I see your point, but do you really think they would take a massive paycut to please some freeplayers? Would you for that matter?



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 11:26:26)

@scarlet Enhancements. 400k for all those weapons and then another 300k for enhancements. Considering all these credits required to get the best gear and then enhance it all, I'd say a lot of people would go for varium over credits. Plus it would give non varium players like Jari a much better chance at beating a varium player(although he already has a good chance at it).



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 11:28:13)

It's imo a good idea but it wouldn't work with the way prices are now ingame... let's take an Armor for an example Delta Armor )

14000 Creds and 1925 Varium ingame... How much would you think the price would be if it were only Credits?
They can't lower the Varium price now due to those that allready bought it ingame



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 13:37:06)

First off, thei tems the credit players are buying won't be the actual varium items, theyll just be credit items that are as good as the varium items. Second of all, the varium prices on current items wouldn't change.

And scarlet, you have no idea how consumer goodwill works, do you? Look at path of exile. People have paid over $1000 for no advantage whatsoever on the game, and its still in closed beta.



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 14:02:02)

like I said before

quote:

I also agree about trading varium with ingame credits
All varium players likes to promotional, rare and seasonal rare weapons
What if the developers make the permanent varium weapons with an additional option of credits only having credit cost of 100k

By this way they can earn money and the game wont be paytowin



Advantages:
Non-varium player will get a better scope of winning against varium player
No additional calculation of varium to credits currency
Varium players wont mind because varium players prefer promotional weapons, rare and seasonal rare
Devs will still get money from varium players and future varium players
Objectives will be put on the game apart from just pvping and participating in war for all max level player to get different weapons
Less new non-varium weapons will be introduced ingame as their still are nice permanent varium weapons and armour ingame (though I dont mind introducing new weapons [8D])



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 21:09:00)

To weaken Strength BH a tiny bit?
Massacre:
Lv 1: 50%
Lv 2: 60%
Lv 3: 70%
Lv 4: 80%
Lv 5: 90%
Lv 6: 100%
Lv 7: 110%
Lv 8: 120%
Lv 9: 130%
Lv 10: 140%



Guppy -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 21:22:22)

What I would like is if there was a store like AdventureQuest's Z-Token Shop and AdventureQuest World's AC Shop, but a Varium Shop, ONLY cost Varium to buy the items inside the store, No Credits. I'd enjoy that. [8|]

EDIT: I'm sure all you Non-Paying players will be happy to hear they said the Infernal Infiltration weapons will be mostly only Credit items.



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 21:44:16)

Mr. Black OP, massacre already got nerfed HARD.



kaiseryeux21 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/13/2012 22:51:36)

the varium to credit conversion is supported. i think its time to give credit to those who are really supporting the game all year long. im not only taking about support that came from players who bought the 10k varium package but also to those f2p who are with ed since the start.



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 3:59:26)

100k credits is actually far too high, what i actually propose is this.

32*60 = 1920. 60 wins per minute, this is some seriously hardcore farming. A player should be able to buy a brand new endgame primary item with 18 hours of serious win farming. (This is akin to making 1mil/hour on runescape and buying a bandos godsword for 18mil)
However, because you'll be selling your weapon from the previous level, a level modifier is added to the cost.

1920 * 18 = 34,560. This is a bit too low in my opinion, so let's add the level modifier. (1920*1.[LEVEL])
For a level 34 primary: (1920*1.34) * 18 = 46310 (Round to 45,000)

As for armours, i believe that you should have to grind much longer than weapons, as armour is a much longer lasting upgrade. Around 25 hours for an armor.
For a level 34 armor: (1920*1.34) * 25 = 64320 (Round to 65,000)

A new endgame sidearm / aux should take around 8 hours in my opinion, something that you could get in a solid day of pure grinding on a weekend if you REALLY wanted to.
For a level 34 aux or gun: (1920*1.34) * 8 = 20582 (Round to 20,000)

This means for a complete level 34 set you would need 150,000 credits. This seems like a reasonable price.
Enhancements should just be set to a flat cost of 7k credits per stat point.

IMPORTANT EXTRA NOTES: - Credit cost should be removed from varium gear, for the trade off of varium not being an option for enhancements. This allows players who can't get on as often to pick up some rares without having to buy or farm credits, but having to use credits to get the full benefits of the weapon.
- All house items converted to varium only
- Armor color system as mentioned previously
- ALL CURRENT CREDIT ITEMS REMAIN IN GAME AS THEY ARE, AND A WEAKER TIER OF CREDIT GEAR STAYS IN THE GAME. I believe that having a lower tier of credit items is a very important part of the game, meaning that instead of farming for very long hours, you can still choose to use the weaker non-premium credit gear if you don't have the time, or you want to save up for something later along the line


What this does:
-Pay for convenience and time
-Pay for cosmetics and unique character appearances
-Promotes more regular use of the enhancement system
-Promotes a more fair, but more competetive environment
-Fosters consumer goodwill and brand loyalty



SylvanElf -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:00:42)

Not sure how you think Massacre is okay where it's at...



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:04:48)

Massacre isnt even that strong, it used to scale off strength and have a way higher percentage



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