RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (Full Version)

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SylvanElf -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:10:11)

Imo it's still too strong, being the only unblockable skill that's scaled from weapon damage.
My evidence consists of how nearly every 34 Hunter I fight has Massacre at 4+, which (at least to me) shows that it's too powerful to consider other builds at this time.



Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:18:31)

Old massacre was enough to use at lv 1. Nuff said.
But your point has some validity,its power will grow with the power of future blades.



ScarletReaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:33:35)

If you think massacre isn't still powerfull then you must not be playing the same game I am. 95% of bh's and ch's use level 4-7 massacre. And it does a lot of damage. Might not quite be overpowered, but it's close. lol



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 4:59:04)

@Xendran
He wasn't suggesting nerf to Massacre. As you can see %s are the same at Lvl 10, he suggested different progression to make it weaker at lower Levels and be equal to what it is now at Lvl 7-8+. I suggested same thing quite a while ago. You know it's good to sometimes check what current Massacre is at before you call it nerf..



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 6:10:58)

Making the progression worse = nerf. I know what the term means.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 6:31:58)

So? It's currently too strong at earlier Levels obviously, people train it to about Lvl 4-6 at max so that's the point obviously. But of course that's the problem for a CH I guess, since there's no BL so PA doesn't provide enough since you get no HP back on Massacre. Perhaps think about Str BHs too, not just CHs who are too strong obviously. And yes, because maybe 8% difference at max would kill you, that's 2-3 damage difference but okay. If that's what gonna make you happy as OP CH then yes, let's vote for you being right and outvoting the community. [:D]



Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 6:54:57)

Trans,you do realize most of current OP,UP and other acronyms that infest this forums and game came from the fact that they made different classes that share skills.If they roll up they sleeves and do similar action as they did with merc classes armor (similar effect - different name) and made each skill a single data information, it would be much easier to balance out any individual class without effecting other ones. Do bh and ch really need to have same massacre? Nope,call one massacre,make one progression, call other one Idontgivearatsasscre and give it other.
As far as I have seen,Rabble is quite competent in optimizing code,maybe its time to make him optimize gameplay too.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 7:01:07)

But problem is with Massacre as a skill, doesn't matter if it's CH owning it or BH, it's problem for both. High Level Massacre + Str build, tell me how you survive that combined with Smoke or Malf. You should if you Shield yourself followed by Heal but that's 2 turns of damage lost and they keep attacking.

Since CHs will get new Ultimate Skill eventually then problem is for BHs afterwards, but it is for CHs now too so we can kill 2 birds in 1 stone.



Arcanis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 11:10:43)

I agree that it is hard to play defensively against such setup,as shields lost value since Azrael bot. One of solutions would be emp,but not all classes have it.
Changing massacre to depend on weapon alone + support requirement on it was a try to lessen its effect,however with the current amount of stats available from weps + ench made it viable again to use at high levels,from 5 onward,
not to mention that its synergy with smoke and bloodlust is really devastating. This resulted in further pushing this game to str fast builds/kills,and probably will be continued until gun damage is changed to different stat,either dex or tech.

As far as new ultimate skills do,i suggest we wait and see it (if it comes) before we can rate it in any way.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 11:19:56)

For those saying massacre is stronger it's because of the new formula being made for it. It allowed % of damage skills to hit stronger against tank builds and with field medic nerfed, makes it absurdly powerful.



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 11:33:36)

It shouldn't be ALL damage.
It should have reduced damage but a special thing like rage drain.



ansh0 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 12:01:37)

Every duo of classes has a different ultimate for a reason, they do different things.

Mercs get the useful rage drain, mages get life steal and resistance ignore, bounties get raw damage.

If you want massacre to be nerved, why not replace it with SS?



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 16:05:22)

EMP Balancing idea for CH? The BH's EMP will not be changed.
It improves with support, has a 3 turn cool down, and costs a bit more.
Lets just call it E1 or something.
Costs:
Lv 1: 14 energy
LV 2: 15 energy
Lv 3: 16 energy
Lv 4: 17 energy
Lv 5: 18 energy
Lv 6: 19 energy
Lv 7: 20 energy
Lv 8: 21 energy
Lv 9: 22 energy
Lv 10: 23 energy

Just a quick thought, probably isn't balanced, but it is a rough idea.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 16:28:08)

Hey guys :) I will let everyone know about the Rx for Destruction tomorrow when I get it, and then we can discuss the balance with it :P


Ok. Here's is what I witness with Cyber Hunters.

Strength Cybers and Dexterity Cybers ALWAYS have an EMP roughly of level 1, but still use it and manage to drain 26-28 EP with VERY low tech.

I agree with everyone on here that EMP needs a change in Cybers. I do NOT support that it needs to be taken away, however, I think it's allocation on the skill tree needs a replacement. Making Defense Matrix at Tier 1, Plasma Grenade at Tier 2, and EMP at tier 3 will greatly stop the EMP abuse that we see so much of.


Here is my rework of the Skill Tree...


Heal-Cheapshot-Defense Matrix
Plasma Armor-Static Charge-Plasma Grenade
Multi Shot-Malfunction-EMP
Venom Strike-Massacre-Shadow Arts.


Shown here, it is easy to see how EMP will work in the third tier.

By reworkment, Strength Cybers will NOW need to invest in a few skill skill points to make EMP usable, while Dex Cybers will also need the treatment.

I personally find it unfair on how Cybers with very little Technology can still drain quite a bit EP, while me, with very HIGH technology, can only drain 6-8 points above their minimum, where they drain 26 at level 1 and I drain 32-34 at level 1. I think that EMP should be "reworked" a bit, where Cybers with little Tech have a significant smaller EMP drain than Cybers with High Tech.


New reworkment:


EMP now scales on a par 3 level, meaning that for every 3 technology used, the EMP gains a percentage which is then added onto the current level of EMP (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) ((%s--->4%,6%,8%,10%,12%,13%,14%,15%,16%,17%)



Say my tech is at 112, while my opponents is at 67. I would divide 112 by 3, giving me a starting EMP of 37, but with my level of EMP of 3, it is now at 37+8%=40 EP drain at level 3

Mathematics:


Take your Tech (112) divide by 3 to get 37.3333=37.

Now times that by the current percentage point of your EMP level (8%) now that is equal to 2.97=3

So, 37+3=40 EP drain at level 3.


For the 67 tech, it is MUCH weaker.

67/3=22.3333=22

Say he has a level 6 EMP.

22*13%=2.86=3

So, 3+22=25 EMP.


So, mine high tech with a level 3 EMP drains 40. Their low tech with a HIGH EMP of 6 drains 25.


This will majorly end the abuse of EMP, while benefiting Technology Builds.



liy010 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 17:03:50)

@Above Great idea, love it!




rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/14/2012 17:11:01)

New name for it is EMP blast :)



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 0:39:53)


Perhaps it is time to really step back and take a look at what everyone is doing. This community has NO HOPE of
balancing anything by focusing on one skill, or one tactic, and then trying your damned best to cripple it.
...there will always be another problem stat or skill to nerf. In the old days we all had to MAKE ADJUSTMENTS to
our own builds to counter something new.

Who ever heard of EMP being an issue until all of the other nerfs and ill-advised changes forced someone into
trying it? Now it's suddenly one of the biggest problems in the game? ...and what's the overwhelming solution? NERF...

Multi is too strong...so what does the "community" do??? make it lame, forcing CH's into a str build using their
only decent attack left...massacre. So really...massacre is too strong now ??? It's already been nerfed...

Let me get this straight:

Plasma armor is too strong
Static is too powerful
EMP is too powerful
Multi is too powerful against 2 players
Massacre is too powerful against any player

Is there anything else you want to cripple before totally deleting the class??? Malf...cheap shot? maybe plasma grenade...

Players look for stat/skill abuse oportunities and this is the root cause for many of the ills in this game. Take a
"global" viewpoint and make it virtually impossible for anyone to even get to 130 points without serious sacrifice which
will cost them wins. Cost them wins and they won't do it for long... Once players aren't abusing one particular stat,
skill abuse will also be limited. This one change would do more universal good for the vast majority of players than
any nitpicking nerf you've come up with so far. The problem is...I see no one with the kahonays to do it.

I see no problem with having strong skills...no one enjoys hitting someone for 12 or 15 damage, no one likes 10
minute battles, ppl DO LIKE using their best skill and hitting for 40 points or more. Limit the abuse potential and
maybe we can get off the NERFHORSE and back to making skills fun and interesting again...



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 0:41:28)

To be blunt, this community is not capable of balancing the game, and the vast majority of suggestions make no sense whatsoever.



sha 2nd mage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 3:37:29)

[:)] @Archlord Raistlin & @Xendran

I feel the same, they Just make some noise and make the game worst.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 5:18:55)

Multi too strong? It was buffed because it was weak at 75%.. Even Staff agreed to it..
Static too strong? Guess that's what Delta players say, really late ones. You haven't even seen old SC, you scared of 13-14 EP Regen that's blockable? Get high HP and combine with Reroute, heal loop and you're free to go.

quote:

maybe we can get off the NERFHORSE and back to making skills fun and interesting again...

Re-read your post before you post again. First you complain skills are too strong now you're telling us to stop with nerfs. Seriously? Contradicting yourself.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 11:16:38)

@trans Why do you even bother to comment on my posts... sarcasm eludes you apparently.

Does it seem odd to you Xendran and Sha get it and YOU DON'T???

The point is I'm complaining about all the complaints associated with CH skills and the fact that too many ppl
focus on ONE ISSUE and just try to NERF IT to create balance...e.g. massacre, then plasma armor, then static,
then multi, now EMP and massacre AGAIN. First of all this is NO WAY to treat a class or the players in it. This
does nothing to create balance at this point because players can still abuse stats and/or skill combos. Treat
the real problem (stat abuse), not the symptoms. Keep skills strong...reduce the ability of those skills to go OP,
and quit the constant nerfs...

...weren't you one of the proponents of nerfing multi to the degree that staff finally had to admit it was wrong?

Thought so... :/




MirageD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 12:21:45)

i agree with archy, sha and xen......i hardly ever even open this thread because it seems to always be the same group of 5 or 6 players trying to nerf the whole game [:(]
if the team could concentrate on stat abuse that would go along way

~mira



khalidon5000 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 14:20:29)

Archlord,
What is the point in having *FUN AND INTERESTING SKILLS* if you are at a disadvantage, simply because of the class you belong to?
That takes the fun out of the game.
It's obviously frustrating not having balance right now, but you have to realize the problem isn't just stat abuse, it is also to do with skills.

BTW...
Of course people will try to find ANY way to have a advantage over others because that is simply HUMAN NATURE.
You can't change human nature so don't try to.
There should be unique and interesting builds, but they should have advantages against some builds but be disadvantaged against others.

One final thing :P
quote:

reduce the ability of those skills to go OP,

How do you suggest we do that? ;)
Since it seems to be in your master plan to fix the game.



Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 14:33:04)

I blame enhancements and agility for killing creativity.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion IX (6/16/2012 14:36:10)

@Mr. Black OP
Agility was put to stop high HP builds which were abusing a stat. But that abuse came from enhancements so let's just blame enhancements for ruining a big part of overall balance. :3 If enhancements were fixed - there are many ideas how to fix it - like let's say not affecting skills, just your base stats which is Def/Res, attacks, etc., and skills would rely on your Tech stat + stat bonuses from weapons. Then Varium advantage or rather enhancements being broken would fix big part of balance that is caused by abusers. :D

If enhancements won't be fixed, we may see more problems in the future. Yay! \o/



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