RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (Full Version)

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AqworldThunder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 9:10:44)

The assault bot and rusty assault bot is nearly identical, I spent 500 varium on the assault bot so how about you boost it to 75% and keep the rusty the same.
http://www.epicduelwiki.com/w/Assault_Bot
http://www.epicduelwiki.com/w/Rusted_Assault_Bot



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 9:39:30)

Depressed Void no it was all the heal looping and Emp looping that caused this. No other class in the game EMP looped nearly as much as CH. Bounty hunters didn't have the energy gain to do it, while the every other class with energy remove/drain skills move was blockable so with it like this the madness finally stops. No more worrying about EMP loops and heal loops.



theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 9:45:46)

Make Static Charge passive & with the same scaling as Blood Lust.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 9:52:35)

It is still Strength-based though, in same way as it is now but passive? That's a buff over pre-yesterday SC..



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 9:53:49)

Theholyfighter if they did that unless the make it weaker then reroute they might as well remove static altogether and give CH reroute. Also if they did this it would be the same EMP looping and heal looping all over again and those people will start complaining again.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 10:05:59)

So here's what everyone says about CH:

  • Looped EMP - needed nerf
  • Looped Heal - needed nerf
  • Simply counter Nerf with investment in Energy
  • Plasma Armor is stupid

quote:

Looped EMP - needed nerf

Sure, this is something we could do, but if the Dev's really cared about the EMP removing loops they would've nerfed TLM's too, since Atom Smasher only needs 6 energy to use (easier to use, but more risk involved). The fact that it's blockable doesnt't make it weaker than EMP; Static was blockable, and WAS it weak? No, and neither is Atom Smasher.
quote:

Looped Heal - needed nerf

Also something we could do, but again, TLM can do this to if they're using the right build. Most of us don't even loop heal anyways; we only do it on Tanks.
quote:

Simply counter Nerf with investment in Energy

A lot easier said than done. Since we're basically playing without our best move, we can't just add energy and use the same build as we used before the nerf. It's like if we removed Blood Lust from STR BM's and simply say "Get more Health" would that work? No, STR BM's would still be dead without Blood Lust.
quote:

Plasma Armor is stupid

Correct! This nerf was not because of "Heal Looping" or "EMP Looping" it was because Plasma Armor was making us too tanky.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 10:25:06)

Shadeofblue that doesn't change the fact that EMP also improves with Tech while Atom smasher doesn't improve with anything. I have seen a level 1 EMP take more then a maxed out Atom smasher because the person spammed tech. It also doesn't change the fact that atom smasher isn't 100% while emp is. I mean sure atom smasher costs less then emp but look at the fact with it.

Emp 100% granteed
Atom Smasher is not

Emp improves with tech
Atom smasher is fixed

Emp if tech is high can do more at level one then a maxed out atom smasher

Emp for CH no skill points needed to gain
Atom smasher for Merc and tech merc 3 skill points needed to get level 1 atom smasher

As for the heal loop This was more of the lower level players complaining about the tanky CH especially those who have high dex and tech but low strength. There attacks do so little yet their defenses are so high that duels last longer. As a result of this they have time to heal loop especially if the opponent manages to land a crit or painful hit on the tank ch. With this nerf those tanks won't abuse their heal loop because of this.

now here is another idea, how about I don't know you actually use energy boosters instead of crying about static? They do give more energy then static did even when it was at 44% the only thing will be is that you aren't attacking while using it. Plus with investing points into your energy instead of keeping it at the default (which was the main reason why CH were such a pain since the point they would have used to invest in energy they use to make themselves more tanky or stronger because static would give back energy so it wasn't needed) Most other classes (with the exception of TLM) couldn't keep their energy at the default level since most other builds needed more energy to use.

As for the Plasma armor this nerf wasn't needed, but at the same time they nerfed mineral armor as well. I am surprised they didn't nerf the hybrid armor, but 2 nerfs to that would be too much since it was nerfed with the move balance bug was taken care of.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 10:31:32)

^Atom Smasher improves with Strength, since it converts the amount of raw damage you deal. Also, we can't use boosters, since 1) It takes credits, which not all of us want to blow on 2 boosters every game and 2) It does not come with a strike. Many duels these days are decided by who goes first; if you lose even 1 strike you're done for.

And as I said earlier, you can't just "invest in energy". Ch doesn't work that way. When we invest in Energy, we're basically a less powerful, energy version of BH. We don't have Blood Lust, since our Static was our Blood Lust, and we have the lesser debuff, but we make it up with PA. We're basically an energy BH without Blood Lust right now. And a BH without (MAX) Blood Lust simply cannot compete with all the other builds currently running around out there. Also, Most CH's are dead if you crit them, unless they crit you back. If you have extra varium/credits right now, I seriously suggest you switch to CH and try to make a post-nerf CH build that's effective.

quote:

Most other classes (with the exception of TLM) couldn't keep their energy at the default level since most other builds needed more energy to use.

Most other classes have something to make up for it. BM: Blood Lust BH: Blood Lust TM:Reroute TLM: Reroute MERC: Nothing except Hybrid Armor, which is why they were UP until they got Blood Commander and Adrenaline.
Every Class has a non-mana consuming advantage, and ours was Static. If you take out the skills I just mentioned from thier respective classes, then many classes would be just like what we are now.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 10:41:44)

Shadeofblue take a look at the wiki page on the move atom smasher

Weapon required club
Stat required none
level required 10
IMPROVES WITH NONE
Cool down 2 turns

IT says it right on the character page as well it doesn't improve with strength and right now I am looking at my merc alt as well as the wiki page and they both match up So I don't know where you got the idea it improves with strength since if it did strength spammers would be getting a huge amount of atom smashing damage like the tech Spammer CH get with their EMP's


Oh and Shade of blue I do have a CH alt which I am currently using right now. It is at level 25, and I am currently coming up with a build to adapt with it. I am just not relying on Static as much and using the other skills this class has to offer. I can still get some wins with this, and as much as you and the other CH who are now upset with this nerf don't like it, Much more of the communtiy was upset with several CH constant abuse of their EMP loops and heal loops. Also for the low Defense issue ever think about defense matrix? I used it when I played as a CH, and if you have the right build it works well for defense. Plus even if a user has the azreal borg it's effect has been nerfed so it won't hurt as much, and plus it's attack does so little (unless it crits) that if you have a good build you can still make it through this.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 10:48:09)

^
quote:

Atom Smasher: Smashes an enemy, burning their energy as a % of normal damage.
Energy Required:
Level 1: 6
Level 2: 7
Level 3: 8
Level 4: 9
Level 5: 10
Level 6: 11
Level 7: 12
Level 8: 13
Level 9: 14
Level 10: 15
Conversion:
Level 1: 48%
Level 2: 52%
Level 3: 56%
Level 4: 60%
Level 5: 63%
Level 6: 66%
Level 7: 69%
Level 8: 72%
Level 9: 75%
Level 10: 78%

Unless I'm mistaken, it does improve with STR, since you're converting from strike damage to Energy lost.

And, Defense Matrix doesn't work, since you lose a turn using it (if you lose even 1 strike or are blocked/critted/deflected/go second, then you're basically finished unless you block them or crit them, etc.) I've used D-matrix enough times to know this; and I only use it against lower-level non-variums post-nerf.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 11:01:14)

^ Even if this true it can still be blocked, and I have still have seen a level 1 EMP steal more energy then a maxed out atom smasher.

Also I have seen many CH use this when dealing with str builds even post nerf and it does work for them is some cases. Also even with the nerf I still sometimes lose to CH who tank out. Most don't like the new static because it now like what you said about atom smasher works with strength even though the stat said improves with none. But no matter how you call it Shadesofblue this all happened because of the constant EMP and heal loops. Also even if you could justify the heal loops (which in some cases can be since some other classes can do it as well if the duel is long enough or have booster >_<) the Emp loop is unacceptable. Especially since no Points are needed to be invested into it (and no other class has a 100% chance of energy drain loops.) So this is the result of that constant abuse.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 11:07:10)

quote:

Shadesofblue this all happened because of the constant EMP and heal loops.

No, it was because of Plasma. If it were true that the only reason they nerfed us was cuz of looping, why didn't they do so when we still had technican? And yes, I'm adapting; in fact, I was one of the first players to "adapt" to a STR build when the nerf came out. But I'm losing to level 34 non-varium/part-varium BH's. And they didn't even hit the right skills, which should've been PA or maybe even EMP if they really wanted NO on EMP Looping. Also, post-nerf TANK CH<STR CH, and STR CH really isn't that great (even pre-nerf it wasn't that good), so there shouldn't really be any way for them to beat you (Unless they block you a lot, and Crit)
quote:

Even if this true it can still be blocked, and I have still have seen a level 1 EMP steal more energy then a maxed out atom smasher.

Static can be blocked; obviously that wasn't enough to justify not nerfing it. And Unless the situation above was with a TECH abuse CH and a Low STR Tank TLM, it shouldn't happen, since 78% is a pretty high percentage considering how much STR people use these days.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 11:37:02)

@Mother1,

Since Plasma Armour, of course a defensive passive will increase the durability of a Cyber Hunter, yes? First at +13, now +10, Plasma Armour has yielded consistent nerfs to Cyber Hunter because: with that armour boost, Cyber Hunters are able to survive longer to use Field Medic and EMP Grenade more often. Before Plasma Armour, we Cyber Hunters lacked critical defensive measures unless actually tactfully opting to side with Technician and Defense Matrix. Now with added durability, looping has never been more consistent... thus nerfs to other skills. I do support removing EMP Grenade, though.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:06:50)

Shadeofblue Don't forget that their is equipment that has high tech already in it. Plus with the way CH as set up level 5 focus builds are easy to get. Plus if you add the correct combination of items you can have up to 75-85 tech without enhancements. Then if you add those enhancement oh boy it can be a real pain in the butt. Also the most I seen a user do with a max atom smasher was 41 energy drain (there may be higher number but I haven't seen them) Also one time when I was duel a ch he hit me with an emp that did 43 damage. I was like what the heck? He must have powered up his EMP. However I come to look at it, and see that it was level one and the guy has an crazy amount of tech on him.

Heck when I used to play as a CH my EMP on level one did 32 and I never spammed tech with CH build. It was because of the equipment I had. However if anything EMP's should be like Toxic gernades have a fixed amount of damage that can be done and not improve with tech or anything in the matter. This way it can be supercharged to doing such high damage at low levels and still be useful at the same time.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:15:09)

quote:

Heck when I used to play as a CH my EMP on level one did 32 and I never spammed tech with CH build.

Not possible. You need 99 TECH to get a 32 energy-draining EMP at level one. That would be 31-38 Resistance which is (way) too much Tech, especially for a low level. Screeny Coming up.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:22:30)

Shadeofblue didn't you hear what I said? I was using equipment that is high in tech. Plus I would use a level 5 focus build with the CH ir any class if I could because I like focus builds for the balance it holds. my tech would be at 45-50 and the equipment which I used (enhanced but not powering up tech) would already have a high amount of tech in it so I would be pushing close to that number anyways, but then again this was before the move balancing thing and someone did say EMP got weaker because of this. However, that still doesn't change the fact that I could get such a high EMP number at level one due to the equipment I have.

Which is why I said EMP's should be at a fixed number per level, and not improve with tech similar to the toxic grenades.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:27:09)

^
quote:

Heck when I used to play as a CH my EMP on level one did 32 and I never spammed tech with CH build.

I did see that you said your equipment gave a lot of Tech, but you also said you didn't Spam tech, and 31-38 Resistance is a lot, especially if you're not a Tech Mage. I have not seen 1 CH with this much Tech (although I have heard about Raynie's tech abuse build, and it may just be luck that I don't run into CH's like this). The highest tech I have seen from a CH (recently) is 30-36 resistance.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:35:57)

Shadeofblue I don't know how many times I have been told my build wasn't balanced and I was a tank even though I was following a focus build for balance especially with CH. In this case you can't blame the player for that it is the equipment they use. However if you know what each piece of gear give you with the enhancements and do the math you can tell if they are spamming tech or not. Whenever I am a CH I tend to divert my enhancements away from tech since I have passive armor but with the equipment I have (plus the armor I have) it still tends to be extremly high. Add to the fact that I also never go above a certain amount of health I gain the agility bonus as well so add all these together with some even if you don't spam tech you can still come out tanky.

Also now I am a tech mage and even as a tech mage I don't have that kind of resistance without my armor and agility boosting it. and I still get my but kicked by certain classes which includes CH.

But on another note what do you think of my idea for EMP nerf?



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:37:02)

Even if EMP took only 20 energy it would still be OP.
Consider this:
-EMP is tier 1 (for CH)
-Costs only 10 energy at lvl 1
-20 energy is 2x that of assimilate at level 8
-It is unblockable



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:41:56)

@mother
My 5 focus build only has 25-30 resistance :P
Anyways, I think the EMP nerf is a better idea than the Static Nerf, since not all CH's use EMP but all CH's use Static (Almost every single CH used Static at level 5 or higher pre-nerf).



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 12:59:33)

Nerf passive armors (and give merc a REAL buff, not a useless 5% to adrenaline), nerf EMP, buff static charge, problem solved...not.



Jatar The Legend -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 13:01:19)

@shades Yup, static is vital to the Cyber Hunter class and they blew it out of the water. However, gaining 15 energy every turn and being able to booster and eventually heal loop did make cybers OP. I think they should've kept the old system of taking a % of the total damage,rather than base it on actual damage inflicted. Now, you have no idea what to expect and you have no way to plan ahead of time.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 13:17:43)

Shade of blue is is as I said it depends on the weapons and armor you have. Mine just happens to have more tech then yours does. You can't put that fault on the player can you? Also level 5 pre nerf? Maybe lower level CH but almost all the CH I see use 8-10 static and on a rare case seven but never 5.

AQWPlayer all the passive armors received a nerf. The balance bug being fixed nerfed hybrid armor one point each, and this nerf weakened Plasma and Mineral armor. Also buffing static the wrong way will case heal looping and EMP looping again which will case the masses to complain about it once again. No class should have grantee energy removing loops (Which CH have since they can get back energy to loop EMP use unlike BH who can't do this without compromising their plans) As for the merc buff the only reason it was buffed was because someone complained adrenline wasn't working and Rabble happened to look into it and see it was true. Otherwise Mercs wouldn't have gotten this buff.

Jatar the Legend do you know how many people were complaining when static was nerfed from 44% to 29%? A lot of people, if it was nerfed this way any further it would be just the way or close to the way it is now, and CH would be complaining again. Also to buff Static now even if it is upped to say 45% or even 40% of the actual damage, it could be abused big time and heal looping and Emp looping would happen again.



suboto -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 13:23:38)

Passive armor
lvl1-25 +10
lvl26-30 +11
lvl31-35 +12

Static charge
30% max lvl1-25
32% max lvl26-30
33-34% max lvl31-35

Stun grenades both kinds
buff -1dex/tech needed (incourageing more builds
Tank builds incouraged

Merc/tlm multi
Buff -1support needed per +1dmg (incourageing support builds)

Buff blood shield 15max at lvl35

Possible support/dex/str robots other then only tech robot's incourageing more creative builds by different variety of robot's
A posible new skil or for a new class
Skill name: Burn affect u use it and it will up support or str and burn u and a person u attack with the dmg u deal but the burn affect will dmg both char




Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion X (8/25/2012 13:39:01)

This is a grand suggestion on a very grand scale:

Passive skills... become "traits" of your character that develop over levels.

Firstly, how many times do my fellow level capped players (maximum skill points) fight someone with absolutely ZERO points in any passive skill? Surely, if they were, they are either a Hipster genius that should be my friend or they are just lost or they are trying to be a punching bag.

Passive skills devour skill points. I find it irrelevant as to how many points you have allocated to Reroute or Deadly Aim, whether it be 6 to 10, the fact is you do add skill points to these skills.

This suggestion is to have each and every passive skill... become a "trait" that your character has (clearly class-specific). These traits are at their minimum values at level 1, and progress in value up to maximum value at max level (currently 35).

I am mostly suggesting this since strategy derives from utility, and having 1 or 2 main skills (active skills, not passive) to rely on for their effects is quite cumbersome to say the least... not all too helpful in multiple situations; such as facing a Physical Primary weapon-heavy player when your Reflex Boost is at 0 points. So, altogether, this suggestion benefits the players by providing us all with more skill points at our disposal. This in turn increases space in the skill trees, allowing more skills (preferably new skills) to be appended.

If you would like a blueprint or template then please ask and I shall produce.



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