RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 22:46:09)

Fact: CH Static Charge broke it for CHs. I hit like, 20, and gain back less-than-useful EP. The worst is that I can't predict ANYTHING about how much EP I will gain. Mages can do a little math and calculate how much HP they have, and how much EP they will regain. I have NO CLUE how much I will be able to regain at all. That's bad for me trying to make a build and figuring out how much to put in EP.

Also, was EMP looping supposed to be "fixed" or "close-to-fixed" with the SC nerf? I'm sorry, I'm using a tanky, Level 3 SC, taking away 40 EP each EMP grenade, and looping it pretty well, while doing semi-decent. Nerfing SC "helped" with EMP looping? Lolareyoukiddingme? I got raged at for dropping 80 EP in 1 battle. (Was a Blood Mage. Full str. I was tank, had lots of dex, kept blocking while draining his EP, and he couldn't hit anything on me. His final words as I beat him? "Nerfing SC didn't stop EMP looping...")

Nerfing SC = EMP problem solved? No. So, why did they nerf SC then, if we CHs have clearly shown that it is still very possible to loop EMP?



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 22:48:10)

@Mother1
If you use PB on rage, it should do more than SC
and yes, they nerfed things that werent needed to be nerfed
but sometimes, things need nerf
The dev's just need to listen directly to what the players say
It seems almost if they say "Someone said this idea, but since we don't wanna say they were completely right, let's change another thing they didn't comment about, that'll make us seem smarter and one step ahead of them"

My balance idea's
Change Adrenaline off Mercenary
Weaken Massacre to the same idea as Static Charge where it is raw damage, or change it to 100% at maximum
Weaken PB
Fireball increase with support
Put Plasma Cannon back to how it was before
Cyber Hunter and Tactical Mercenary are just fine. People who say CH is now UP, just forgot what it's like to use a class that is not the strongest currently out there. Tactical Mercenary's who say it is underpowered should switch classes, because if they can't figure it out, don't know how to create an effective build.
Return the bots (excluding Infernal Android) back to how they were before the never-needed "patch". The only one's this effected were Mercenary's because of their lack of defenses where Assault Bot was their only salvation, and Bounty Hunter's who used Azrael Borg and made their enemies defenseless.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:17:03)

@blaze Which is totally why they switched Bludgeon for Berzerker on BMs, replaced Assimilation after many said it wasn't useful on BMs, lowered scaling on Fireball, made Hybrid armor be a split defending passive armor(suggested way back in Beta), replaced Blood Shield on mercs, tested out a passive Aux version of DA for them, buffed Static Charge when it first was made, increased scaling on Fireball when it was first made, replaced Technician on TLM because it caused too much synergy(this was posted about a lot), and a whole bunch of other stuff that I could post and make a nice wall of text with.



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:22:56)

Guys, whenever we have a balance suggestion, instead of a contribution to the balance discussion, we should PM Rabble directly, seeing as he's in charge of balance and it'll be harder to miss if we PM him instead of hiding our suggestions between massive walls of text made by some forum users (No offense intended). That's what I'm doing in the future :P



Envy and Jealousy -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:32:45)

I have an idea for Mercs. I honestly love Adrenaline...I usually have it max and have a Sort of Tech/Supp Focus 5 build and I get Rage every 3rd to 4th turn. But my idea is to make a sort of Atom Smasher type skill to replace Atom Smasher. This new skill is blockable and can be used with a sword. Here is the skill percentage:

Lvl 1: 20%
Lvl 2: 24%
Lvl 3: 28%
Lvl 4: 32%
Lvl 5: 35%
Lvl 6: 38%
Lvl 7: 41%
Lvl 8: 44%
Lvl 9: 47%
Lvl 10: 50%

This new skill, atm dubbed "Energy Drain", has the last part of the rage animation that you have with a sword but the aura around the sword becomes blue and it lowers the Energy. Imho, either Merc gets that or EMP.

All I know is Merc needs a buff...just hopefully that buff doesn't affect Adrenaline.

~Envy



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:35:42)

Blaze I was talking about before PB is used with rage it is still more powerful the supercharge. of course it would be more powerful with rage since it ignores 45% of defenses, however since most casters (even the lower level ones I have seen) Spam tech and PB increases 1 for every 3 tech it is way to overpowered.

However as for you improvements I have to ask

1 What would they replace adrenaline with? I read that the reason why it isn't working well is because of a bug, but if they remove this bug they fear it will be OP
2 Now this nerf would not only affect BH but CH as well. While it would be a nice change CH users who use this skill will think once again that people are picking on them since the staff nerf static to the point where some decided not to use it at all until it goes back to the way it was.

3 I can agree with this one as it is too OP
4 Fireball is actually good as it is now. Plus making the fire ball increase with support won't stop Str BM they can still use strikes, deadly aim, and bludgeon.
5 While that would be good, the reason why they nerfed it was because it stacks with BL and it is one of the 3 moves that has the highest chances of criting while ignoring resistance. Tech spammers would have a field day with this if it went back.

6 I can agree with this

7 while I would like that the staff wouldn't do it since if it did the Azreal borg would have the power to counter the bio borg which they never wanted in the first place. Plus users would also complain that the Azreal borg is OP since it could take 80% of whatever buff or buffs that user had on them making the buff worthless. Heck I still hear some people saying the Azreal borg needs another nerf because 65% is still too much. As for the Assault and rust bots I can agree on that one since even a 15% nerf to those makes the mercs more vulnerable to other classes debuffs especially casters, and str builds.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:44:44)

For the bots, I forgot to exclude the Bio Borg being countered, that shouldn't have happened in the first place
The bio borgs skill is an attack. It does not buff any stats, it does not debuff any stats, what else could it really be
Summing the bio borg's and being affected by azrael controversy:
Bio Borg's special is an attack, not a buff.

Maybe make Plasma Cannon not have a 25% chance to critical, but fix the damage.

And for the Merc being overpowered bug thing, if there really is a bug that they are not fixing, make that the skills effect, change the skill description, don't lie



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/8/2012 23:59:23)

@Mother1: You and I are on the same page. There are so many things that Devs to work on, especially 3 and 5. Plasma Bolt is too efficient and Plasma Cannon needs its damage reduction undone by at least 50%.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 6:29:35)

Since everyone keeps wanting nerfs these are the nerfs that will happen two per class:

Tech Mage: Plasma Bolt and Bludgeon

Blood Mage: Plasma Cannon and Bludgeon

Bounty Hunters and Cyber Hunters: Cheap Shot and Massacre

Tact Mercs: Double Strike and Surgical Strike

Mercs: Double strike and Berzerker

They will never touch energy draining skills it should be clear to everyone by now. Those are the things they will nerf to get balance.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 6:58:17)

They need to nerf TM's plasma bolt and that's already enough to slightly balance everything. Because tact mercs 5 focus risingand infernal android is rampant, the only way to outmatch a tact merc with 5 focus tank is to give them the taste of their own medicine, which is another infernal android. However, no class can simply can attain tank defenses unless you have enough damage to hit them and/or tank them.

I have only beaten at least 1 tact merc because of luck(deflected the special attack) and then got the upper hand in the end but that would have finished me had I not deflected it. Field Medic NEEDS to be buffed but eventually stops scaling at a certain amount of support to prevent it from being too overpowered. Not only would that cause overpowered healing but also those with infernal weapons will simply crush every build since only those with the infernal weapons get the extra 25% crit damage.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 7:17:49)

Hun, no one wants nerf but you keep trolling everyone that we love nerfs and want to do so for every class. Unless you prove we want nerfs for ALL your classes then I'll take my words back.
TM has only issue with Bolt but same change as BM had with Fireball would be enough. Who's talking about Bludgeon? Only locked version of Double Strike with 5% more damage and lower EP cost (it's locked obviously, barely any buff for such hence lower cost).
People's issue is with Massacre on BHs, since Smoke greatly enhances it.. Who mentioned Cheap Shot? It's blockable and ignores defences but who will invest in it if it can get blocked? Rarely anyone does at higher Level since they put Tech to improve their blocking. I mean Dex, you think it's still Tech right? :3

Also last time I remember speaking with Rabble, he said that Mercs are still UP hence Bunker wasn't even touched; only because one build can stand others doesn't mean they are balanced. He said CHs are doing very good in 2v2 but no words on 1v1 yet, I remember speaking with Shari probably that BHs may get small adjustment which is likely happening to CS, and all other classes being balanced as they are now. Sure issues are still here but BMs aren't that much of a threat (mainly Str if any) and TMs have Bolt so Tech abuse so changing Bolt to same scaling as BM's Fireball will fix it.

quote:

They will never touch energy draining skills it should be clear to everyone by now. Those are the things they will nerf to get balance.

Try reading our posts in the future. There are plans or fixing ALL passives so they won't be a must in a build so sorta like DA or Adrenaline or SC, they won't be a must to have if you want other skills. I spoke already about it with Rabble but we need Shari to be back since she's very busy as it is.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 7:22:16)

imo this has to change:
STR: nerf STR itself instead of touching STR based skills
TechMage: Plasma Bolt needs a requirement just like Fire Bolt has one and let it improve at a slower rate
CyberHunter: Put the class back to how it was before this silly nerf and Nerf EMP, a BIG nerf if I may say so.
FieldMedic: Back to Support improving but at a slower rate



Promiscuous -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 7:26:24)

King, really? It must be either your build or items... Any high dex,high str or emp build wrecks my 5focus tlm. It may be good in Juggernaut but in 1v1 it's just not working.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 7:49:05)

I'm only mentioning 5 focus Infernal Android full varium Tact mercs tbh. It's annoying as well if they boost though I'm still getting the hang of it. Plus I'm a 5 focus blood mage. I've only lost due to luck for some strange reason.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 8:20:05)

Heeeey King welcome in the 5 Focus BloodMage family :P
and here I was pretty lonely when STR BM were ruling and I was the only 5 Focus one xD



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 8:47:03)

I was curious and I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but what do you guys think about the special of the Infernal Interdictor?
Prior to it, weapon special effects were only active when the particular weapon was used. In the case of primaries, only on a normal strike.
This special, however, is a little too useful compared to other specials in that it even affects skills, unless I am mistaken..
Should this weapon really have an effect on skills like fireball, plasmabolt, supercharge, or bunkerbuster? (etc etc)



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 8:50:10)

I thought the special is applied to all attacks. The amount of extra crit % damage is too much. Everyone who does a crit ignores 50% of defense or resistance but 75% from the weapons sounds overpowered and too much. 65% is already enough.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 9:16:36)

Well the weapon was originally made to work with the delta vaults during the war so of course it would apply to all moves. However you all keep forgetting that Crits all based on chance aka the luck factor of the game, and even at best you will have a 1/4 chance of getting a crit with Cheap shot, Bunker blaster, or Plasma cannon. As for every other move it depends on your support, and since the nerf to support a lot of users don't even use the stat unless they are using a level 5 focus build.

While it is true that all other weapons abilities worked with strikes, you got to remember each of those had a set percent chance for each effect to happen that is coded into that weapon (Jack or fire mark of azreal, etc) and surprisingly you have a better chance of getting the effects to happen with these weapons them most people have of getting a crit.

XxkiracanXx in a suggestion thread in the past someone suggested nerfing this weapon to make it just like the other (meaning only active with strikes crits) because they got hit will more crits then normal a few times, and others in that thread also said it needed this nerf because of Cheap shot, Bunker blaster, and Plasma cannon. However, I myself couldn't support it because unlike the rest of the weapons this one actives with crits which is completely up to chance. While add more support increases this chance, it is still just that chance. The same could be said with blocks and deflections since no matter how much dex or tech you add it is still up to chance.




Mr. Black OP -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 11:33:34)

^
Yes, just like you have a set chance of getting a critical with those skills you mentioned, which just so happens to be 10% more than bionic battlegear (skills). Also since I remember on that thread someone said they rarely use strike so the special would be useless for them, well you can pretty much say the same for every special then. Which sounds better: a 5% chance (you would have to have almost no support for this) of the special for every attack or a 15% chance of an attack you rarely use? Don't forget you can raise your critical chance OVER 15% with support which you can't do with other specials. Specials, criticals, etc are all up to chance.

So basically it is unbalanced:
It favors certain classes.
ONLY special in game that affects everything you do.
With enough support you can have 15%+ chance.
With a crit you can get over 30 extra damage easily vs a tank.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:13:21)

I think everyone needs to read the support placements in critical strike calculation.


Take the difference between yours and your opponents support

(*since 5 focus is rampant, I would say a good 59-48 support is good)


So, the difference between 59 and 48 is 9

Divide 9 by 7 (odd number) and you obtain 2 (after rounding, and since rounding is always UP)

So, you're chance to obtain a critical strike is now 6 % (4% base, 2% number value)



Lets say that you have a lot of support?


89 vs 33

The difference is 56

56 divided by 7 is now 8

So your advantage is now 12%, which makes it 4% base plus 8% support bonus.


With the massive strike special, there is no increase in critical strike chance but there is a significant raise in damage.


However, please also remember that support also reduces your ENEMIES chance to critical strike.


Example: Same as above with 89 vs 33.

Take the base chance of 4% and SUBTRACT your support bonus.

So, 4% minus 8% is -4%, but since the odds can never be lower than 1%, 1% is now the opponents.


Also remember that support it stacks over time. Say that you battle for 13 rounds.



Chance to not crit in 13 rounds is (.92 ^13 ~=~ 33.8 %). This makes the chance that you will crit 66.2 % (63% after rounding up).


Hope that eased every ones minds.


:D



King Helios -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:17:21)

You did the probability wrong. In thirteen rounds, with a 8% chance, the chance that you will not crit is (.92 ^13 ~=~ 33.8 %). This makes the chance that you will crit 66.2 % (63% after rounding up).



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:26:34)

I was busy with the Xusha situation; gathering what I hear right now, are we talking about the Infernal Interdictor or are we talking about buffing/changing Support?



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:33:48)

Hmm. I was looking at the wiki....let me check to see errors...
KINGY is right. I read formula wrong



shadesofblue -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:39:11)

King Helios is correct. If you had MAX critical chance (20%), the % of NOT getting a crit in 10 turns is about 1% I have about 6% critical strike (This is true for many players; 6% is pretty normal unless you're like STR BM or Caster TM, etc.) I usually survive ~8 rounds before getting KO'd by Caster TM's / Fast Kill Builds, and out of those 8 rounds, I only attack 6-7 of them (we'll say 7). So the average chance of me critting ONCE in a duel is: ~35%. 35% is quite high, for someone with average support (13-16). So, basically I have 35% to gain an ENORMOUS advantage over my opponent in each individual duel.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/9/2012 12:59:09)

well i guess the devs should revert plasma rain back to improving with tech and super charge to improving with dex. give plasma bolt the str requirement it had last time. this would have solved the problem of casters being oped last time. i really dont get why the devs did not do this but instead they choose to complicate things and shuffling around stat improvement of skill. a simple str requirement on pb would have solved the problem but oh well what is done is done.



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