RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (Full Version)

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Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/6/2012 21:18:24)

Agility needs to go. And so does focus, robots should always be at +30 damage, and tech improves it.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:27:47)

What else? Bots would be abused even more since you could have minimally lower damage than Tech builds.. Agility can be made level scaled, leaving is a no since HP abuse would be worse in some cases. Some classes still benefit from high HP despite penality from agility and removing it? No.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:30:32)

Trans, if agility was removed, people could have fun in ED again. Right now were all forced into abusing focus, or abusing stats. I say we get rid of all requirements. Then all the classes will be OP again. I think if we let every single class use their OP builds, everything will be balanced. This involves putting back skills like beserker on blood mage. Bring everything back except for diamond claws for bh. Mercs need to be support freaks again.

This game was so easy back in beta trans! If it could go back that way, all would be better.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:35:04)

Are you trying to troll? Berzerker back? Smoke on TLMs too (along with all pre-nerfs)? No.. Fun because Agility is gone? What restricts you is really +1 Res/Def? 110 HP gives no penality and 124 HP is easily bearable. 140 would be most, why would you need more for now? We are forced? How so? People use Focus 5, but there are many other builds if you do actually play the game. You don't have to abuse stats to be good, people who you fight are brainless abusers which can be beaten with strategy.

All classes OP is a fix? Then you just made fights even shorter, 2v2 at major disadvantage for last player (if not dead already) and HP would be in need of a buff because of very high damage. I said it many times, but don't moan how Devs listen to minority when they make balance decisions since majority posts suggestions that aren't even logical or balanced at all. Common sense anyone? <_<



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:38:40)

Trans, if you want complete balance then suggest everything to do 3 damage. Theres your balance.

If this game was 100% balanced there would be no fun.

And if they did this, they'd at least be able to start over, fixing their past mistakes.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:43:49)

@chosen *insert any large amount of board games here* Trust me, there was less fun in Beta since you saw only one type of build per class, two at best. And heal loop vs heal loop? Hope you have 15 minutes to spare. Str BH vs Str BH? Toss of a coin decides who wins. Back then it was a giant game of Rock Paper Scissors except that heal loop mages occasionally beat both rock and paper.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:47:54)

@Moose
What difference is that to now? I agree that having 2 heal loop builds would be a pain in the butt with our current enhancements. But right now every class only has 1 build. Strength BH's kill everything. CH is underpowered and everything is a mess. I agree that there would be extreme issues if this got implented, but there would be way more creativity then there is now.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 21:56:25)

@chosen Because now I can actually go out and try a different build than the OPd ones and not get creamed. Back in Beta, the only build I made to beat Xendran's heal loop was a support hunter. The only reason why I won was because he didn't want to prolong the battle and used his Malf instead of saving energy to heal. That's all that it took for a heal loop to beat it's mortal enemy the support hunter. I never won a battle against a heal loop who didn't use Malf on me because that was the counter to support hunters. Heal loop mages did everything back then including Cheevo NPCs with their one build.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 22:00:45)

@Mr. Moose
What is upsetting is how the devs destroy classes and builds over and over and they dont learn about their mistakes. Try going into ED being a Heal Loop mage right now. It's almost impossible. The devs destroyed them. Try being a support Mercenary. You can't their destroyed too. Try playing as a cyber hunter. You can't use it effectively anymore because their energy regain was nerfed. I dont want everything to be back to the way it was. I just want everyone to be able to use any build they want.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 22:06:28)

@chosen Heal loop was never supposed to be a viable build at any point in the game. I haven't tried a support merc but I am running a fairly successful Support BM build right now. CHs got nerfed because SC was too good. Here's a simple formula to know if something will get nerfed. If X skill is present in a large number of builds then it will get nerfed. They didn't make the skills with the intention for certain ones to be used by everyone and some of them to never get touched by anyone.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Dischosen XII (10/6/2012 22:12:53)

@Corner Moose

Slowly but surely I'm coming to grasp with this. But I still have things that concern me. Cyber Hunters now need to use hefty amounts of strength in order to get energy back. That makes strength one of their only build options. You hardly see any CH's now because of that nerf. The fact that static charge can get blocked makes it even harder. And if you use enough strength to make it sufficient, your dex won't be to high. I gotta log off. But I'll continue this tomorrow.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/6/2012 22:19:41)

@chosen What about BMs, Mercs, and BHs? They have no way to gain energy back as usefully as CHs did. CHs could Malf and get huge amounts of energy back AND deal good damage. Everyone else with any energy regain had to get hit for huge amounts of damage while mercs got nothing period. If you're really so hard pressed for energy you can remove one level of strength and put that into energy. That's 8-10 energy right there.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 0:56:53)

I'm not a cyber hunter. But what I'm trying to let come through to you is what the class was made for. Mercs weren't made to have unlimited energy, they don't need to, but the way Cyber hunters skills are set up, static charge helps a lot.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 1:41:59)

With the way it was the vast majority of CH never would or hardly ever train their energy. No matter how you look at it getting 13-20 energy from any strike that does any number of damage (sometimes only 3) is vastly overpowered.

Also if CH want to use those skill just invest points into energy and use them and use static as a back up in case the matches get long.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 1:46:29)

@^: As a var, easy for you to say.

Honestly, after the Static nerf, time on ED has dropped to less than 1 minute a week on average. Not kidding. I honestly just can't compete any more as a Non-Var. Vars can drop an extra 5-10 points no prob into Energy, as a Non-Var, I can't. If I can't, I can't make builds that can compete with the battle community. And if I can't compete, I can't win.

Therefore, I stay off of ED.

As a Var Standpoint, nerf might not hurt too bad. As a Non-Var standpoint, I'm completely sunk.



RageSoul -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 1:56:55)

@Joe
Static wouldn't be nerf if it wasn't because of PA + build copying + " seemingly fine "stuff . Nobody requested PA before . Besides , you can always use Physical Damage as your Primary in case a BH/BM has a strong ES .

Okay , for the people who want Static's old power back :

Just remove PA , but it was clear that it will never be removed so ... SC will stay like that until bigger changes came .



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 2:10:58)

Infernal Android need another nerf type.
It just seems Weird and OP To me that someone with 3 focus can do 46 dmg on rage surviving good amount of rounds lol.
I Belive it starts at 80% and 5% per round. Makeit 4 focus gain 5% per round and 3 focus 3% per round, 2 focus 2% per round and 1 and no focus 1% per round.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 9:21:33)

Lord aegis that is all i hear some of the older users talk about. Oh it is Plasma Armors fault that Static got nerfed because it OP the class. CH needed protection since they were getting the clocks cleaned and they got it in the form of Plasma armor. However after this was done that was when everyone saw the class was OP and static got it's nerfs. However weather you knew it or not static was OP from the start. It is just that CH were getting beaten so badly that the OPness of the skill wasn't noticed since the staff was more focused on buffing the class instead of nerfing. So are you saying that you truly wanted the class to stay underpowered so Static could stay vastly OP? Don't sound right in the least.

Also what passive would you suggest if they did remove plasma armor? (which unless something crazy happens won't be happening.) Remember removing on passive requires you to replace it with another unless you want the class to be at a disadvantage again since that how it was when CH came out.

Joe while I feel bad for all the CH who didn't abuse static the ones who abused it to the max was the ones that brought this upon everyone. Cindy told us they did it so that the heal looping CH who abused this would be stopped and even she didn't like it since it hurt her build as well. However I do have a CH alt that doesn't use enhancements and with it I can still win my battles against just about anyone (other then fully enhanced players) However the nerf gave more balance since CH are suppose to struggle against certain builds and classes unlike before where they could manage well and dominate just about every build.




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 14:00:08)

Trans, you are tech mage and if you have a malfunction multi build you get smoked but with malfunction at
5 or greater the damage from the Plasma Rain would be the same or greater. As the Blood Mage has reflex boost
but if the Reflex boost is not high enough they have nothing else to increase the damage. As a Tech Mage if
you get malfunction you can put on technician to take away the effects of malfunction to use Plasma Bolt as
the Blood Mage does not so any tech based skill is pretty much useless.

From the beginning of Delta the Blood Mage had the most amount of Nerfs than any other class basically destroying
that class, limiting variety, making them less aggressive forcing them to be more defensive or going by the way of
one type of build, high health high strength builds. Take out the bots out of the game then you see players that thinks
their 5 focus builds be less successful due to they don't have a bot to win the battle for them.


The real problem with physical attacks from the Blood mage that players are having is that they have low dex
to have high tech to get high damage from the bot, then they complain how the firball does too much damage.

Or that when they introduced shadow arts then recently adjusted the block equation for dex the blockable skills
have become unblockable skills. In battle look at all the skills and moves that should be blocked that don't get
blocked and how often.

Deflection when moved to tech it has been happening more often then under support.

I increased my support to see if I could get critical damage from Plasma Rain but it has only happened twice
and that was on players with higher support than I have.

In 2vs2 the most powerful skills should be multis and if they bring back the power of the multis and bring multi-shot
and Plasma Rain up to par with Artillery strike then we will see faster 2vs2 matches.

From equations to skills all need to be adjusted.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 14:17:45)

Bla bla.. BMs are UP.. Can you stop saying that and give us data? Forcing one type of build or Tank? Str works very well, Focus 5 works, Support is slowly appearing, Dex and Tech work fine IF you have way round EMP's/Atom's. I may not be a BM but ask people who are and are also better players in terms of experience with the class. Perhaps you'd give us more details if you didn't run on 2nd turn always? My Malf doesn't bite and staying for whole battle would greatly improve your ratio since you blame your loses on the "UPed BMs" yet you run from the battles.. Silly Hun.

quote:

if you have a malfunction multi build you get smoked but with malfunction at
5 or greater the damage from the Plasma Rain would be the same or greater. As the Blood Mage has reflex boost
but if the Reflex boost is not high enough they have nothing else to increase the damage. As a Tech Mage if
you get malfunction you can put on technician to take away the effects of malfunction to use Plasma Bolt as
the Blood Mage does not so any tech based skill is pretty much useless.

1. Right. Well done first since you grasped how Res and Malf works. What's your point here? My Def is still much lower and it costs me even more EP.
2. Malf increases damage? Since I'm Smoked, I'll take in much more damage because I have to Malf and then use Multi. That's 2 turns of very high damage being taken in as opposed to 1 BUT a bit less damage.
3. What's your point with Technician and Malf? Does that mean - since you have Intimidate - that you want Field Commander to do the same? Also you can always wait for Malf to be over, debuff it with a Bot/Shield yourself until it fades away, and perhaps rage the Tech skill you want (Plasma Cannon?). Think sometimes, you don't spam a skill which just got debuffed especially when your EP is limited (aka all classes with no EP regen).

quote:

In 2vs2 the most powerful skills should be multis and if they bring back the power of the multis and bring multi-shot
and Plasma Rain up to par with Artillery strike then we will see faster 2vs2 matches.

This is hilarious.. <_< >_>

THERE IS NO ON PAR. THEY ARE ALREADY. UNDERSTOOD?

Support improves it and Crits? They have Aux and that's it for the stat. Dex and Res give you BLOCKING/DEFLECTIONS, improves OTHER skills across all the classes, give you DEF/RES and that's still NOT enough? Crits are luck-based yet DEF/RES and SKILLS are NOT. ONLY luck-based think is DEFLECTIONS and BLOCKING which you can substitute for lucky Crits that you seriously envy. If you suck so much at using BMs - because Mercs do apparently and beg for a buff so you do the same - then why won't you change a class or stop running from battles & crippling your ratio?



kingpowerlord -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 14:44:02)

@BM's are one of the most OP'ed classes in the game everyone!

They may of nerfed fireball but... Most bms always use the deadly max bludgeon 22-27 strength and max deadly aim combo along with high HP and BL, they can still along with the infernal interdictor platiniums pride and skull boomstick kill you in let's say 4-d turns.

@trans
Lol your a bit too harsh un hun, all he wants is his class to be the best...



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 15:47:06)

Trans it is Blah Blah Blah, you can't even get that right, I have been traveling from company to company helping
them out with their IT problems so I have been on unstable wireless broadband networks I have had a lot of
connection lost issues, thanks to cell phone companies can't get their connections right.

Another thing they need, to help with balance, is a chat mute selection player box than we would not have to see
the degrading nonsense that players type.

Me changing class would not help with the balance problem plus Trans you and others would not like if I was a tech mage again
because with the right build I would get 70+ damage with side arm after I malfunction a player. As a Blood Mage
the highest I got after a Player was malfunction was 82 damage and the was with low strength.

Yeah that is a great idea put on Eshield wait for Malfunction to fade away to use an energy based skill let see while the
Blood Mage is waiting what happens, that is correct Trans, their energy is taken away so then what, you will say well use
boost, oh wait, it only gives 25 points of energy how much at max does Plasma Cannon need, that is correct 33 points of energy.
So where is the Blood Mage suppose to get that 8 points out of thin air. You will say use another boost, then they will
steal your energy again plus you wasted 2 rounds and gained damage in each round.

If you get smoked as a tech mage you can put on defense matrix but from reroute you get more energy back than a Blood mage using
reflex boost.

Resistance gives you deflections that must have changed. When they moved the deflection equation to tech
deflections have been out of hand as the ones with lower tech have been deflecting more than with higher tech.
The ones with lower dex have been blocking more than ones with high dex. The ones with lower support have
been getting critical damage and stunning other players more often than higher support.

The multi skills have never been on the same level before or after the change and even with my higher support
I don't get critical damage as often with Plasma Rain as the merc class does with Artillery strike and probably the
Hunter Classes will neither with a dex support build so the multis are not up to par with one another.

The equations for the stats need to be looked at and the skills need to be adjusted.
Let's take Plasma Cannon and Bunker Buster put them at the same tech and hit a target
with the same tech and dex the same they should get close to similar amount of damage
and if they don't let say the Plasma Cannon gets lower then how it improves with tech needs
to be adjusted, do this with being malfunctioned as well. Shoot the target 100 times and if one gets
Critical damage more often than adjust that part of the equation because each should get and equal chance of
getting critical damage especially on first strike or at rage.

Talking about luck is forbidden in balance.

The stats/equations and skills are messed up and needs to be looked at and adjusted similar skills should be close to
equal in actual damge then they are.

kingpowerlord, I don't care if the class is the best but it should be better and all the things they have did since the
beginning of Delta have pushed classes further from balance then ever before. Before the adjustment to dex Bludgeon and berzerker
you blocked more often but now how often do you block the physical type of strike skill, except for massacre? If they take out shadow arts
and put blocking equation back to what it was strength builds would be less desirable. List all the skills that make the Blood mage over powered.
Does the Blood Mage having anything to lower stats and increase damage at the same time? I have told you guys in the past it was not the
fireball skill that was the problem it was Bludgeon and tech mages is starting to use that skill more often in the first turn but everyone demanded
a nerf to fireball instead of dealing with dex. A merc can do double strike then berzerker and take you out or bunker buster and berzerker because
bezerker is not blocked that I have seen yet to happen and kill you in two rounds or that massacre with high strength and at max can take a player
down with 70 points of health but everyone complains about the Blood mage. That EMP could take away 40+points of energy at level 3 but everyone complains
about the Blood Mage wanting more nerfs to their skills. Will you and everyone be satisfied when the Blood mage not matter what skill
only gets 1 point of damage per attack?



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 15:49:17)

@Kingpowerlord I said it before and I said it the again the new guns special ability needs a nerf. BM are abusing this weapon more and are getting large amounts of health back especially when they rage because they are gaining health from attacking two opponents. Heck I was fighting a bloodmage who lost his partner and he had 53 health left. He then used his a rage boomstick attack on me and my partner not only to inflict heavy damage on us at 85% but gain back 23 health which is vastly OP. Even with fireball when it was powered up by 3 str never gave anyone back that much health.

It is OP and I am seeing more Varium BM use this weapon and again big amounts of health from it, and the funny thing is it also works the same with blood commander as well.



kingpowerlord -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 16:05:57)

@move
Ikr, so that's.. OMG about 92 damage!
46 damage on each person seems just about right, so that means the guns do 85 percent damage on EACH person equalling to a massive 170 % damage in 2v2 so if I has 25-34+35 damage versus someone with a total of 30 defense on rage, I would ignore half their defense(on each person) equalling 45 on each, 85 percent of 45 is 38.25 rounding to 38 on each person. Maybe a criticla on one person meaning 38+59 97 damage! So yeah OP is definately not the word. We need a new world VOP meaning very overpowered.


VOP equals very overpowered.



The Astral Fury -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/7/2012 16:49:13)

I don't think BM is UP at all.



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