RE: Blind battles (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 0:31:36)

If people like the idea of not seeing everything.

Then I purpose that if battles aren't blind that they make a passive skill core that passively hides either the robot special or skill active.

This way choosing to make it blind,can be an acceptable strategy with the opportunity cost being a different passive.


Or a different battle mode as I suggested would be good if as Xendran says the wins count for the normal record just separate types.

If this is the case then people who beloved in quick effortless builds and more relaxed battles can stick to the blind mode to avoid being countered and leave the fun strategic full veiw normal battles to the people who enjoy fun challenging battles, less luck based.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 0:50:43)

with more bots introduced, you wouldn't know which bot your opponent is using, so don't tell me that you want to know what kind of bot your opponent has equipped in the future, remember the skill cores only add a little more support to your character, they do not have a game changing effect than your actual skills or a special like massive strike, its not really fighting blind in my opinion. i kinda like the idea of not being able to see what skill cores others have, it adds uniqueness to your build.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:06:26)

Some have extreme effects on battle.

Plus yes I really want to know what my opponents bot is.

Chairmans fury for example drains rage. You need to know that in order to change your strategy accordingly.

Plus there will be many more game changing skills then that just check out Xendrans page.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:10:06)

xendran's suggestion or other's suggestion doesn't mean that it is going ingame as it is without changes to it, skill cores should add a little oomph to your build, not making your character OP.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:12:52)

It,doesn't make your build OP it adds vital variety and creativity which allows more builds to be countered ultimately making smarts and wits the deciding factor rather then OP effortless,power as it Is now.

Plus most of the skill cores out now may have small chances but they usually increase luck factors and IMO far worse and less balances then any ideas on Xendrans list.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:17:52)

@above thats what i said, anyways people already have trouble with build copying so making skill cores not visible for others will make battles more fun.

no not really, the exact info on the skill cores haven't been released yet, and most of xendrans suggestions are active skill cores(they are easier to do). there is alot to choose from not just the luck increase, it can be damage increase and health point increase or passive energy/health regen(1-2 points)



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:32:48)

There,is no problem with build coping.

What's happening is obviously effortless power builds are to OP empowered by lack of counters that are effective and to,many stats.


Accusing some one of copying when they are practically forded to use a small selection of OP counter less builds which are basically the only things that can kill each other is rediculous.


The problem is the lack of variety, variety which will come through Xendrans list.


Copying builds being the problem and cause is just silly



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:42:59)

@above well lets see about that then, people will copy the most successful build they see, also in omega the current powerful build will be useless except 5 focus builds, and thats what the devs are doing, they are adding variety to the game by making 70+ skill cores and more to come, they are adding bots and each weapon equal in power so there is alot of varieties there.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 1:50:54)

The most successful build when there is alot of variety should technically be the least used build since you are trying to counter,the most and get countered by the least and hence people who just copy will essentially destroy the build.


We will indeed see and personally I think it will be smarts and wits that win regardless of the build.



Vegafire -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 6:56:59)

Im sorry but keeping them hidden means you cannot see the skill cores, but they cannot see yours either, it is more strategic in a way as you can spacialise it around your playing style, its like a real life scenario, you dont know what your apponement has up his sleeve but he doesent know what you have either ;) so weather they are revealed or hidden, either way i happy.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 7:01:28)

Vegafire, that is blatantly untrue when you say it is more strategic. It turns ED into a guessing game catered to casuals.
The chance of this being implemented is very *very* low anyway.



Vegafire -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 7:09:12)

But if you know exactly how your apponement plays due to being able to see and not guessing or having a stratagy to working it out it takes the fun out of the game and you can judge weather you are winning or loosing at the beginning of the battle, boring in my oppinion there should always be a element of suprise in all battle "STRATAGY" games.

what your getting at is you want to see there exact build basically for the win ratio side of this, im on about returning the suprise factor to ED making it dun how it was in Alpha/ Beginning of Beta, best phases for gameplay in my oppinion due to not knowing all aspects, not being able to debuff rage ect, players were more relaxed and a better crowd entirely, few players actualy have a conversation with you anymore.... the game has turned into a competition and well thats just wrong i want the good old hit and hope times back :D ofcourse the hit and hope even had stratagy involved for example the supp mercs with artillery stike and aux, they had high crit% and damage, actually stood a chance, thats what i likes to see, that it was down to build and not class, and if you know you apponements build down to everything including the skillcores it removes this aspect of the game in my mind



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 7:29:03)

I don't think you understand how important it is to be able to see other people's skill cores. Having them hidden would require an overhaul on the way they're designed to work, and actually make them super-simple boring things that do nothing out of the ordinary.
Like i said, omega is going to be very counter heavy, including counters that must be used before you are hit.

From a game design standpoint, a hardcore mmopvprpg should NEVER hide statistics.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 7:41:49)

xendran like i said before, skill cores should never give you a game changing effect, it should just give you a bit more support, not everything has too be shown(unless they are OP) it will be fun since it will benefit both you and your opponents, plus the fact that all skill cores will be available for all players to use, it really depends on which combination you choose to use.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:32:36)

If skill cores aren't made into useful counter tools then even with heaps of skill cores variety won't improve, luck will get alot worse and the whole game would be reduced to effortless luck battles.


If skill cores are continue to be made like they are now then luck will be too strong and strategy based battles will go out the door.


To help improve the game skill cores need to be battle changing and thus you need to be able to see what is equipped.



Vypie -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:34:14)

Yep, Trizz is right, they wont be that gamebreaking. And if skill cores were that powerful, no one would even waste skill points in Active Class skills, only passives.


Anyways, True strategy, both in many games and in real life take in consideration the unexpected. Knowing to be careful and cautious is a virtue. Knowing how to manipulate the surprise element is no dumb task. Strategy is the ability to adapt to the battle situation.

Real strategy is a change of tactics, not a predefined battle routine where you expect everything from your opponent, and adjust accordingly.

When facing the enemy, you must know to not risk too much, but to also take the right opportunities to strike.
You must adapt and discover the enemy tactic during the heat of the battle. You must not behave too predictably, or your enemy will easily counter you.


In a TRUE PvP game you must use your mind on more than just expecting stuff based on enemy build.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:41:21)

Interesting you say that because the only way to use your mind when there is hundreds of skill cores to choose from is to know what they have and thus know what they could do.

good strategy in this game is doing what they don't expect but it you,should never have to allow for hundreds of skill cores in order to be strategic.

It's not a strategic battle if you happened to not guess the hundreds of possibilities your opponent could have, be wrong and therefore lose to luck.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:45:49)

@above same goes for your opponent, he can't really see what you chose to use out of all these skill cores, it is really a win/win situation, just my opinion though, i would disagree with my opinion if the skill cores managed to have a game changing effect.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:48:01)

If neither side can allow to set in counters for the possible skill cores they may have then it is simply luck based battles.



Vypie -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 8:58:48)

If everything is expected and all information in given to you in a plate, then when Omega comes and greater balance is established between players, all that is left to change the battle fate in Luck.

And we don't want a game where the battles are determined by luck.

Also, and much more importantly: (which I seem most here are forgetting!)
If you know the enemy Skill cores, it will be easier to counter, or get countered, right?
-The problem with having everything revealed is that the battle will be in favor to the player whose skill cores happen to counter best the opponent.

But if we don't know this information, a strategy might still work, instead of being completely nullified by expected counters.

And if the information is open to everyone, It will force players to play a safe build which isn't affected much by counters, or one that doesn't rely in combos, or ability combinations.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 11:02:31)

If everything is expected then what is left is the BETTER STRATEGY.

you seem to assume everyone has the same skill level and can predict every move as it happens. NO , no they can't a good build should fit a variety of current strategies into it so going against someone who can beat you means you may have to try a different angle of your build.


How is luck worse this way when you don't have a chance to set up a counter if say their build is good at killing your normals builds strategy??

If you know then it is simply the smarter more thought through strategy that wins.


I used to love using strategies that threw my opponent into making a mistake.

For example against a BH with emp also I would first use lvl 1 smoke so they unnecessarily shielded and lower their energy to a point were they can't emp me back after I do it to them the next turn.


This is just one example when you can throw your opponent of coarse without using luck.



Vypie -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 12:06:01)

Yes, players don't have the same amount of skill or battle knowledge, and will play the same builds differently. But in the cases where that isn't a factor, if we happen have a naturally countering build, and we know all our opponent has to offer, the battle wont see many outcomes. Specially because Omega will bring balance for all players, stats, weapons. Players will be on a more even ground regardless of skill.

The strategy we have is a very predictable one.

For example, if you have a build that relies on a High energy Skill, such as Massacre, one guy can simple slam you an EMP on the face, and voila, you just wasted 7+ skillpoints of your build.
But If you have a Skill core that makes you regain some of the energy, you could trick you opponent into thinking you had EP left, thus using his resources to use another skill instead of emp. But surprise surprise, you regain some EP, following with a massacre!
If the opponent knew you had that Skill core, he would have known to use EMP just in case... And he would be able to counter your build again and again, because he would nullify it every time.

If some parts of the arsenal are hidden, even a Scissors build may manage to beat a Rock build, depending purely on how you play.

A counter build is a always a counter build. Skill helps, but sometimes one build is simply better when put against another. Taking away the hidden element would make builds EASIER to counter others.



Thylek Shran -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 18:35:54)

I want a strategic skill core that will make the skill tree and stats invisible.
Would call it "Camouflage Core". Maybe only equippable by hunters.

It could be countered by another core. "X-Ray Eyes" or "Vision".



Stabilis -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 19:14:18)

I would rather the opponent be random than battle mechanics be random.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 19:26:24)

@remorse what vypie said is correct, it is a real use of strategy when you can adapt to the sudden changes of the battle, we should never determine a outcome of the battle by the build of you or your opponent, hiding skill cores will change that, it will make you stand a chance, now in ED, you know you will win or lose at the start of the battle if you see a player with a build that counters yours or that you can counter, unless they or you get several lucky crits and deflections.



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