RE: Blind battles (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 21:35:18)

What vypie said is an opinion, one I happen agree to disagree because the whole point of having creative skill cores is to improve variety and add,many,strategies into a single build, one which can't just be plain outright countered or not.


It is up to the smart player to use a different angle within the build if the opponents build is good at defeating perhaps the usual angle of your build but if your smart and have a creative build there could,always be something you can do strategy wise to make your opponent lose. No luck involved.

It a hard concept to grasp because I Haven't seen it in action since beta early gamma.


Plus they can always add ways to allow for people who want it to be blind modes whether it be skill cores that hide others or different battle modes.

And I disagree with the statement it's true strategy to recover from an unexpected skill core, what I think it is, is pure luck if your lucky enough to be a versing an opponent whose skill cores can be recovered from as they occur.

Knowing from the beginning means there is no excuse not to allow for it and therefore can carry out what I think is true strategy.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 23:43:33)

quote:

xendran like i said before, skill cores should never give you a game changing effec


Skill cores are DESIGNED to give you game changing effects. That is their ENTIRE PURPOSE.

quote:

If everything is expected and all information in given to you in a plate, then when Omega comes and greater balance is established between players, all that is left to change the battle fate in Luck.


No. Guessing at skill cores is luck. Doing incredibly stupid things that have no strategy, even when you know what the opponent is using, is the fault of the player.]
And like i said, chance of skill cores being hidden is *incredibly* low.

But what would i know about game mechanics, all i have is a university bachelor of game mechanics and programming.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/14/2013 23:52:10)

I hope it is incredibly low, but I fear the devs not having mentioned this yet may mean they are leaving it hidden.

Hence I made this post to remind the devs it needs to be done.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 0:56:47)

quote:

But what would i know about game mechanics, all i have is a university bachelor of game mechanics and programming.

@xendran that doesn't make you understand the game better than others, not until you join the ED team and try to make the game better or make a game like ED yourself.
skill cores should never have more of a game changing effect than the skills on the skill tree, it should just give a little more support to your gameplay. if skill cores should be as powerful as you say then i have a feeling that the battle is not gonna last very long, i enjoy long fights.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:08:50)

quote:

that doesn't make you understand the game better than others,

Seeing as i've been active with balancing and working on ways to improve the mechanics of this and many other games, yes it does.
It gives me significantly more knowledge over people without the same education about how to make a game work properly, sell well, and still be fun.
Go to a plumber and tell him that just because he is a plumber, he doesn't know how to fix a pipe system any better than others.

You are essentially telling me that despite the fact that i have a bachelor, and designing&balancing game mechanics is MY JOB, that i do not understand games better than people with a lesser education in the subject.

quote:

not until you join the ED team and try to make the game better or make a game like ED yourself.


Currently working on more than one game project with groups of people. Two are flash games akin to ED, one is a fully 3d kingdom hearts fangame that i am fully designing the advanced combat mechanics and skill tree + system for.
And again, go to a plumber and tell him that until he builds a full plumbing setup himself, he doesn't understand the system better.

quote:

skill cores should never have more of a game changing effect than the skills on the skill tree, it should just give a little more support to your gameplay.


Actually, they're meant to fully change the course of a duel, and cause strategy shifts mid-fight.

quote:

if skill cores should be as powerful as you say then i have a feeling that the battle is not gonna last very long, i enjoy long fights.


I said game changing, not super powerful. Do not attempt to put words in my mouth. From what i'm hearing from the testers, 1v1 battles in omega are lasting around 75% longer than what I've been experiencing since gamma.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:15:47)

It's,common seance to know well balanced skill cores have potential to make games shorter or long depending on whether you chose defensive or offensive.



You like long battles???

Then feel free to have them with many defensive skill cores.

Which stop effortless power builds taking you down.


How can you assume that all skill cores are to make batles fast and effortless??


Plus Trizz, you are saying that skill cores should NEVER be game changing then acuse Xendran for thinking differently from other players when I think the same way as well as many others.




TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:25:25)

@xendran
quote:

You are essentially telling me that despite the fact that i have a bachelor, and designing&balancing game mechanics is MY JOB, that i do not understand games better than people with a lesser education in the subject.

nope thats not what i meant, when i say others i do not mean everyone(definitely not 8 year olds) it doesn't take a bachelor degree in game mechanics and programming for someone to understand the game(it does help though, since it will be easier for you), alot of players here understands how things work and have contributed/suggested alot of ideas that actually improves/balances the game.


quote:

Currently working on more than one game project with groups of people. Two are flash games akin to ED, one is a fully 3d kingdom hearts fangame that i am fully designing the advanced combat mechanics and skill tree + system for.

nice what a coincidence, im doing exactly the same :D starting to learn coding and working for a game company too.

quote:

Actually, they're meant to fully change the course of a duel, and cause strategy shifts mid-fight.

sounds like what massive strike and crit does.

quote:

I said game changing, not super powerful. Do not attempt to put words in my mouth. From what i'm hearing from the testers, 1v1 battles in omega are lasting around 75% longer than what I've been experiencing since gamma.

i didn't say that it was super powerful XD it really depends on what you think that the definition of powerful is, having a game changing effect sounds powerful to me, and i hope it lasts longer than the 1v1 battles we have now.

quote:

Then feel free to have them with many defensive skill cores.

Which stop effortless power builds taking you down.


How can you assume that all skill cores are to make batles fast and effortless??

this sounds like what we have currently in delta, 5 focus tanks and strength abuse builds.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:33:04)

Crits are pure luck were as changing a game mid game using skill and strategy is what this game almost completely lacks since delta.

Proper skill core which aren't gonna just make luck worse like most of the badly balanced and poorly tested skill cores out so far.

The concept of small chance but luck based game changing effects is a bad use for skill cores and if they start using ideas like some from Xendrans list the battles should become alot better more controled and therefore potentially longer if you won't it longer.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:33:28)

Trizz: Unless you address the entire post, including my exmaple of a plumber, your entire post is completely invalid.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 1:37:41)

@above sure i will do it when i get back, save my spot
quote:

Seeing as i've been active with balancing and working on ways to improve the mechanics of this and many other games, yes it does.

from what i have seen, many others have did the same.
quote:

It gives me significantly more knowledge over people without the same education about how to make a game work properly, sell well, and still be fun.
Go to a plumber and tell him that just because he is a plumber, he doesn't know how to fix a pipe system any better than others.

your example is completely invalid, game developing and plumbing are very different things, we as in teenagers don't often come in contact with pipe work or drains, teenagers and children come in contact with games most of the time, therefore it gives us knowledge of how a game is supposed to work or whether or not if something is imbalanced, a degree definitely helps because you dedicate your time into studying it but it doesn't mean that others who didn't have the education can't be at the same level of understanding as you.
i think that you think because you study about it, it makes those that didn't have the education incorrect.
correct me if im wrong, but it seems like that every-time someone disagrees with you, you pull out your bachelor's degree to prove that you are on the right track.

back on topic: this isn't exactly a blind battle, since when you are blind, you cannot see anything, with this, only your opponent's and your skill cores are invisible to each other.




Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 2:45:31)

quote:

your example is completely invalid, game developing and plumbing are very different things, we as in teenagers don't often come in contact with pipe work or drains, teenagers and children come in contact with games most of the time, therefore it gives us knowledge of how a game is supposed to work or whether or not if something is imbalanced


Incorrect. You come into contact with plumbing in the same way you come into contact with gaming: as a consumer and a user, not a developer or somebody with expert knowledge in the subject.

quote:

a degree definitely helps because you dedicate your time into studying it but it doesn't mean that others who didn't have the education can't be at the same level of understanding as you.

This is fundamentally incorrect.

quote:

i think that you think because you study about it, it makes those that didn't have the education incorrect.


Not in all situations, but in this one, yes.


quote:

correct me if im wrong, but it seems like that every-time someone disagrees with you, you pull out your bachelor's degree to prove that you are on the right track.

When people are constantly saying things that vastly contradict what both my studies, real world experience, sales data and player reactions indicate, then i will respond accordingly.

quote:

back on topic: this isn't exactly a blind battle, since when you are blind, you cannot see anything, with this, only your opponent's and your skill cores are invisible to each other.


I actually think that when you see just how gamechanging skill cores are, you too will be against the notion of permanently hiding them.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:04:08)

quote:

You come into contact with plumbing in the same way you come into contact with gaming: as a consumer and a user, not a developer or somebody with expert knowledge in the subject.

hmm , so people do plumbing for fun XD

quote:

This is fundamentally incorrect.

explain

quote:

Not in all situations, but in this one, yes.

i see...anyways thats still your opinion, my opinion is that anyone can understand without achieving a certain degree, its really the basics, the more games you play, the more experience you gain(only applies for some).

quote:

I actually think that when you see just how gamechanging skill cores are, you too will be against the notion of permanently hiding them.

that gives us more reasons to hide them :D i think a experienced gamer like yourself should know that most will copy and use the most successful and powerful combination of skills/stats/build and skill cores therefore it will be like delta/gamma all over again, if skill cores are such a game changer then i say that they need a little nerf.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:08:50)

quote:

i see...anyways thats still your opinion, my opinion is that anyone can understand without achieving a certain degree, its really the basics, the more games you play, the more experience you gain(only applies for some).


The more experience you gain as a user, not as a developer or designer.

quote:

that gives us more reasons to hide them :D i think a experienced gamer like yourself should know that most will copy and use the most successful and powerful combination of skills/stats/build and skill cores therefore it will be like delta/gamma all over again,


Then you'll have to settle for the temporary hiddenness provided by a skill core. See? a game changer right there. Also, there will be so many counters available in omega, that there will be no one best build, because every skill will have a counter to it. If a build becomes too cookie cutter and is too powerful, people can counter it until the build is brought down to the proper level. There will also be such a vast variety of skill cores down the line that it will be essentially impossible to find a best combination.

quote:

if skill cores are such a game changer then i say that they need a little nerf.


If you continue correlating "game changing" to "power" after it has already been stated to be otherwise, your posts will be considered spam due to the nature of purposefully ignoring given information.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:12:38)

I agree with you Triz that you don't need an education in,gaming to have a good understanding, in a way just playing games is a self applied education.

But in regards to the skill cores being small and hidden I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion as everyone is entitled to those own, and just cause I don't agree doesn't make it wrong.



Mother1 -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:24:52)

@ remorse

How is showing everything we have going to make the game more fun? as it stands right now you can see everything your opponent has other then the robot that they are using and if they don't have one well you can see all.

Yet what do we have right now Remorse? Imbalance and the vast majority of players doing copy builds instead of making their own. What did that lead to? Those builds getting nerfed because people complained or less fun because and complaining because everyone used the same builds and didn't use diverse builds.

Skill core will help with some diversity. However if they are shown it will be the same crap all over again. Once people see a winning build and the cores used with it, everyone especially the over competitive players will just copy it and boom we took 1 step forward, and took 2 steps back. Meaning we will have cookie cutter builds all over the place and no diversity.

While some think keeping the cores hidden will cause crazy bad luck or problems because we do know what they are to counter them, it also protects some diversity which is what epic duel actually needs IMO.



Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:29:21)

quote:

it also protects some diversity


Blatantly untrue. It promotes the use of skill cores that are generic and useful in all situations, since you are not goign to be able to counter properly.
Everybody will just use the same set of skill cores that are useful in every battle, isntead of using specific ones because they know how to do unique or interesting things with them.

1. Good luck properly copying a build with skill cores. The amount of skill cores prevents formulaic strategies from working in omega.
2.
quote:

Then you'll have to settle for the temporary hiddenness provided by a skill core. See? a game changer right there. Also, there will be so many counters available in omega, that there will be no one best build, because every skill will have a counter to it. If a build becomes too cookie cutter and is too powerful, people can counter it until the build is brought down to the proper level. There will also be such a vast variety of skill cores down the line that it will be essentially impossible to find a best combination.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:36:04)

quote:

If you continue correlating "game changing" to "power" after it has already been stated to be otherwise, your posts will be considered spam due to the nature of purposefully ignoring given information.

no, it is my view on the subject, im not ignoring anyone, just not letting anyone change my views and opinion(you are trying to do that), lots of things in ED is game changing, and they are often very powerful, infernal android is a game changer, massive strike or crit is a game changer and there is many more. you can disagree like remorse but you can quit trying to change my views/opinions on something.




Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:37:42)

quote:

just not letting anyone change my views and opinion


Ah, confirmation that you are going to argue even if you're incorrect. Thank you for the confirmation, i'm going to stop responding to any future posts by you on the forums.



Mother1 -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:40:34)

@ xendran

And how would showing everything that a opponent has going to protect diversity since you claim my claim of keeping somethings hidden is wrong? Last I checked there have been many threads talking about hiding builds because"People can copy what they see" It is the main reason why we have all these cookie cutter builds because we can see how to copy another builds and you can't tell me this isn't true.




Xendran -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:42:13)

quote:

"People can copy what they see" It is the main reason why we have all these cookie cutter builds because we can see how to copy another builds and you can't tell me this isn't true.


Only reply if you are going to fully read forum posts.

quote:

1. Good luck properly copying a build with skill cores. The amount of skill cores prevents formulaic strategies from working in omega.
2.
quote:

Then you'll have to settle for the temporary hiddenness provided by a skill core. See? a game changer right there. Also, there will be so many counters available in omega, that there will be no one best build, because every skill will have a counter to it. If a build becomes too cookie cutter and is too powerful, people can counter it until the build is brought down to the proper level. There will also be such a vast variety of skill cores down the line that it will be essentially impossible to find a best combination.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 3:56:17)

Mother go back to my post about copy builds.


I explained that copy builds are a result of small variety and creativity in builds that force players to be limited to a select few oped builds.


Think back to beta, the problem of coping did not exist because variety worked and it will again in omega.


If anything coping will be MUCH worse if you can't see skill cores because once again the oped hard to counter when blind oped power builds will dominate and again reduce variety to power or tank.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 4:04:47)

@above actually it did happen in beta, i used to see lots of support builds, heal loop mages, all of their builds are identical. most don't care about diversity or variety, they care about wins and getting the latest powerful build/class/weapons



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 4:38:36)

I never found it a problem because there was more variety and hence I found it alot easier to counter the popular builds back then.



Drianx -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 5:01:00)

quote:

From what i'm hearing from the testers, 1v1 battles in omega are lasting around 75% longer than what I've been experiencing since gamma.


This is great news. However I'm concerned about how well classes without energy regen will do.

Because in early beta that was what made heal loop tech mages overpower every other class and build - the possibility of using energy-consuming skills like healing well after the opponent's mana pool was depleted.

Back then all they needed to do was to nerf reroute, but they did everything BUT that, which lead to a series of balance mishaps.



Remorse -> RE: Blind battles (1/15/2013 5:22:50)

I think it will be fine considering using robots and skill cores are free plus it likely that skill cores may allow ways to get energy back for the classes without a regain, for a HP sacrifice for example.



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