Azrael's Will Fix (Full Version)

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Xendran -> Azrael's Will Fix (4/24/2013 22:07:24)

Lower damage to 65% (or 66.6%)
Forced strikes cannot be blocked

Now is not the time for this to happen, some stuff outside of the forums has changed my opinion on this for now. Depends on which direction the game chooses to go from here.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/24/2013 22:16:34)

I would definitely agree about the unblockability, because lots of BHs, shadow CHs, and dex tank builds abuse azrael's will like this. However, I can't really support lowering the damage anymore because it's already been lowered enough to have a significant different from a normal gun attack, which makes players use their tactical skills to decide when the best time to use the core would be. Lowering it to 65% would simply be way too much.



Mother1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/24/2013 22:21:10)

Lowering the damage again not supported as it was already nerfed from 100% damage to 85%. Making it strike unblockable however I can support since it will be a nerf to all those people who abuse it for the block chance.



xyzman -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 0:21:01)

quote:

This gives the owner of the sidearm an opportunity to block and avoids guaranteed unblockable damage from skills and weapons.

I doubt it's possible as taking advantage of block is the idea for Azrael's will at the first place



Mother1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 0:26:56)

@ XYZMan

No, but most focus 5 high smoke max shadow arts Bounty hunters use it for that purpose. They smoke you which increases their chance for blocking then shot you with the gun's special ability a lot of times not only wasting your rage, but causing it to get blocked giving you very little damage (now that blocks no longer negate all damage) as well as wasting your rage.



xyzman -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 1:10:25)

I know. I usually get really annoyed of those max SA BHs. However, the quote is taken from DNs, in which Nightwraith said about the purpose of the core, so i don't know if the Devs would change it to make forced strike unblockable.
I support though.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 1:25:54)

return it to 100% or 90% damage and make your attack unblockable, there, it is a win/win situation



H O L L O W -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 1:37:52)

@Trizzcentrino - No way, blocking is not an issue, but have you seen what high strength/supp tm's can do even with it doing 85%? They kill you in three hits. Making it 100% is not supported at all. It should be lowered to 65% in my opinion, considering the fact that they use it to waste your rage, which is huge.



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:22:51)

Just because the developers say it was intended to be used a certain way doesn't mean that it's good design. The developers say a lot of things.
This core screams "utility core" not "damage core", and in my opinion shouldn't even do damage if it's left as it is. Disabling both skill selection, damage type selection AND target selection for free is already very powerful. It can also be used to bait people to attack you as a mage or tlm to get reroute energy.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:53:00)

personally this type of core/skill doesn't belong in the game.

but if they wont remove it, then i guess i support the nerf.



Drianx -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:56:16)

What is the utility when you deal 65% damage and get 100% strike damage guaranteed?

Not supported.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:57:37)

quote:

What is the utility when you deal 65% damage and get 100% strike damage guaranteed?

your low on hp, and you still have 1 cooldown left on your field medic/attack?

your partner is about to die before his big attack, so you make the enemy target you instead?



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:59:03)

quote:

What is the utility when you deal 65% damage and get 100% strike damage guaranteed?


You force the type of damage
You remove every single active core/skill from being useable that turn including shields, field medic, stronger attacks, etc.
You force the target selection

I'm sorry, but i can't see any way for you to deny the utility of this core other than out of fear of it being brought down from "WAY Better than every other gun" to "Decently better than every other gun"

quote:

personally this type of core/skill doesn't belong in the game.


Other way around, every active core in the game should be this kind of core (look at how most of these actives work http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21022311 ) , but azrael's will should cost energy if it's also designed to have such a powerful utility AND do nearly full damage.



Drianx -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 3:59:22)

And apart from that special situation that you will meet once every 1000 battle, what other utility does it have?
Nevermind, Xen replied just as I was typing, I'll come back with an answer.

@Xendran
I stopped playing more than a month ago and don't see myself resuming, so I don't really care for protecting a gun that will be free for all in several months from now. This accusation makes me withdraw from arguing, because no matter wat other reasons I might come with, you would end up saying that again.



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:01:41)

quote:

And apart from that special situation that you will meet once every 1000 battle


This is a flat out lie. Do NOT blatantly lie to peoples faces in a balance discussion if you wish to have your views thought of as rational.
If you are worried about ANY skill, you can use this to defend against ANY skill.

@Below: The link was broken, i fixed it



goldslayer1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:01:50)

@Drianx
maybe the core wouldn't seem so ridiculous if it wasn't used for 3-4 turn applications due to the current balance.



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:07:02)

quote:

no matter wat other reasons I might come with, you would end up saying that again.


You know that this is completely false. Your only argument for leaving the gun alone so far has been "What is the utility?".
I answered the question.



Drianx -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:09:08)

quote:

This is a flat out lie. Do NOT blatantly lie to peoples faces in a balance discussion if you wish to have your views thought of as rational.
If you are worried about ANY skill, you can use this to defend against ANY skill.


That comment was adressed to goldslayer1's post, as I mentioned later in the edit.

quote:

maybe the core wouldn't seem so ridiculous if it wasn't used for 3-4 turn applications due to the current balance.

100%agreed. This is the actual truth that needs to be adressed, not the core itself. This is much better than ruining the core, as Xen tries to suggest.



goldslayer1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:11:38)

quote:

And apart from that special situation that you will meet once every 1000 battle, what other utility does it have?

lets see, how about using it before enemy uses an ultimate move, then you energy drain him after?

making someone waste their rage?

theres plenty of ways it can be used.

quote:

100%agreed. This is the actual truth that needs to be adressed, not the core itself. This is much better than ruining the core, as Xen tries to suggest.

the core still needs a nerf. however if this were in delta, it would be a little less effective due to everyone having much higher HP.

but right now, any support-str mage with max malf, max DA, can 3 turn .
(malf, gun, aux)

EDIT: thats not even taking into account the other crits cores that can be applied to the aux and gun.
or infernal interdictor.



Drianx -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:14:10)

@Xendran
We both know that the core is useful and preferred not because
You force the type of damage
You remove every single active core/skill from being useable that turn including shields, field medic, stronger attacks, etc.
You force the target selection
But mainly because of the offensive capabilities.

You are mistakenly tryng to put on par some meaningless benefits with some real benefits, and cut the real benefits because the meaningless benefits are supposed to be enough.



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:14:46)

quote:

This is much better than ruining the core, as Xen tries to suggest.


Offer up a good way to fix it then. In no way does this ruin the core, it just changes it from "babbys first op core" to something you have to actually think about using, because it guarantees a certain amount of damage to yourself.
If the stats were balanced, i'd actually have it at 100% damage, forced strikes deal extra damage, but that's completely broken due to the bad implementation of stats.

quote:

You are mistakenly tryng to put on par some meaningless benefits with some real benefits, and cut the real benefits because the meaningless benefits are supposed to be enough.


You are mistakenly assuming that every single player plays an extremely offensive 1v1 build. Those benefits are only meaningless to somebody who quite literally wants the core to have more power than it should. There are a ton of ways to use that weapon strategically. Just because you personally might want a game where battles are over in 3 turns and there isn't even a chance to think, doesn't mean that it's good game design. The combination of poor game design choices overall is causing ED to die, the playerbase is still decreasing steadily.



Drianx -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:20:40)

You want a better suggestion? Here is one:

The attacker should deal 65% gun damage, but the forced strike should deal 85% damage and remain blockable, because after the latest balance update, blocks still deal damage.

This will put more emphasis on the strategical benefits, without ruining the core completely.



Mother1 -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:21:47)

@ xendran

The core when it first came out was originally being used to fill in holes for moves instead of what it was designed for. People complained about it and that was why it was originally nerfed. Even if stats were balanced people would have still been complaining. It is something that we all know won't change.



Xendran -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:26:02)

quote:

The attacker should deal 65% gun damage, but the forced strike should deal 85% damage and remain blockable, because after the latest balance update, blocks still deal damage.


This is literally the opposite of the purpose of this. I'd rather it be 85% Gun damage and unblockable than 65% gun damage and blockable.



Thesoulweaver -> RE: Azrael's Will Fix (4/25/2013 4:26:48)

Just make the attack Non Blockable without lowering the damage.



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