RE: Luck factor discussion (Full Version)

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ValkyrieKnight -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/20/2013 3:52:17)

^ Critical hitting Tech Mages after I put Energy Shield up derpy flerp.




ReinVI -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/20/2013 16:39:07)

I think a lot of people over react to the effects of luck. Sure there are situation where it would mess you up big time but a majority of your losses being due to luck? that's just nonsense. maybe 1/4th of a persons losses can be attributed to luck but 50% would just be pushing it.




Mother1 -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/20/2013 16:44:14)

@ reinvi

I know you know this by now, but from what I get from these forums is this. Anything that makes a person lose a match they feel they shouldn't have lost or something that stops them from winning they want it nerfed or removed.




Ranloth -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/20/2013 16:44:29)

It's quite funny when players complain about luck. Prior to passive cores being shown, I would've guessed players wouldn't go for luck-based cores but ones that reduce luck (i.e. Connect, Laser Sights, etc.) but after the change, majority of players do have the Mastery cores which raise your Crit chance and then complain about luck being unfair to them and how others Crit a lot. They are so against the luck factors that they raise it even further for themselves and believe that 4% raise means they will always Crit more than others without the Mastery core or lower Support.

Khalix covered it nicely in a different thread, about logic of luck (higher Dex = I will always block more and others cannot block, etc.).







CivilAE -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/20/2013 19:56:32)

The effect from the Azrael promoz aren't really luck based, even if they block/deflect the damage your enemy still loses a turn. IMO little cheap.

Don't really have a problem with the first turn issue, and im only alright with lvl being a issue since everyone has to work to get those stats.




The Incredible Hulk -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/30/2013 3:25:59)

quote:


1. Level. Completely luck.
2. First Turn. This is just weighted luck and has a massive impact. This also should not be tied to a stat like support, or a stat at all.
3. Pay2win equipment. Faction weapons, azrael promo gear.
4. Build. It's luck whether or not you end up with a build designed to counter yours.


The luck is horrible in this game. I have an alt with a 85% ratio in 2v2 as a level 25+ but for some reason my alt keeps losing now by crits/deflects/blocks. My alt is a 5 focus & most of the enemies builds I have seen so far are lower then 45 & still they are able to crit alot. Even with low dexterity; I still block.




Scyze -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/30/2013 3:30:29)

A huge bird told me once that Omega was supposed to be a lot more stat based than Delta... it's not!




Jekyll -> RE: Luck factor discussion (6/30/2013 5:16:06)

Why not turn 'luck' into humour?

Every time somebody says I'm lucky because of "crit/stun/block/deflect", I will either keep quiet, or apologise profusely, saying how I'm truly sorry and have wronged him/her. All in a day's work.




Khalix -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 5:24:23)

Since I can't make a thread out of it...

First, let's state the facts, Omega's been here since February and right now a chunk's in hysteria about luck. You see topics on general, balance and the suggestions forum that are generally concerned with "Luck" while primarily focusing on the "Luck" cores that increase the percentage of doing a chance-attack.

Here's something I'd like to add- When Omega was released, the amount of positive opinions on these "Luck" cores outweighed the negative opinions- Some were concerned if the cores even work while some formulated builds that can benefit from these cores the most.

Then a few months after, you see people complaining left and right about cores being overpowered or unfair. The number of negative opinions increased.

---

Let's talk a bit about the growth of these cores. Initially, during their release, only a few people could actually afford a whole set of cores. Give them a few months to equip themselves, and the population of lvl 35 players with a full set of cores have increased. The talk about builds using these cores disappeared, no one doubted if a core works, to them, they had a feeling that using a passive core would guarantee that they would at least score a chance-attack once per game. They had an expectation.

Now here's the tricky bit. Unlike other MMO's, the calculation of stat points, the chances of anything occurring or the damage ranges are all calculated by the player- The engine isn't faulty when it comes to the math, it's just not user-friendly in that the total damage and percentage chances aren't shown to the player. This leads to the assumption that anyone with:

quote:

130+ Support = 90% Crit rate
130+ Dex = 90 Block rate
130+ Tech = 90% Deflect rate


You may laugh at these calculations, but this is what's going on in the heads of a player fighting against these odds. You aren't shown the math behind these numbers, but without seeing the percentage, you are forced to assume that these chances are absurdly high- Enough to make you assume that it may as well be 90%. If these chance occurrences happen, their belief that that person is unfair strengthens and leads to rage.

This often leads to situations where players completely avoid giving that player an advantage (Like using unblockable skills or firearms to subdue a high-dexterity player) because their judgement tells them not to rely on melee attacks.

Now where do the cores fit in? They make these supposedly “High” percentages occur even more. This leads to rage.

Regardless of whether or not these cores were accepted before, they’re hated by the community more due to the “Exclusivity” of these cores- Only people who could afford them could use them, after all.

If you were to ask me personally, the reason behind players thinking these core users “Abuse” their chance-occurrences is because the RNG chances are not displayed, which again, leads to assumptions or predictions as to how the fight will go on. If the “Disadvantaged” player wins, he won’t complain, if he doesn't, he rages. After all, no one wants to lose.

---

Cores apparently receive plenty of blame on the "Luck" factor. Why so?

In times of adversity, people always look for someone or something to blame. This is especially true in gaming where if anything contributes to the problem, it is hyped as the source of all problems, the source of all evil, no matter how minor or major the role.




Leprechaun -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 6:50:07)

The luck is COMPLETELY UNCONTROLABLE. I loose SOOOO much because of luck it's not funny anymore. And WHERE are dev's looking? Into war based on PvP? Well PvP is broken! Luck, unbeatable opponents in 1v1 (for lvl 31), leaving opponents in 2v2 (and gearless, afk ones). This game's idea is REALLY EPIC... Makes me wanna quit, but I hope they do something to bring fun back like old days. Before WAR we need TONS of fixes in PvP!!! That's My opinion...




Mother1 -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 7:49:20)

@ Leprechaun

Well it wouldn't be luck if we could control it now would it?

Also until more people at the higher levels come in you will have to battle higher level players unless you they decide to lower the player range (Which won't happen since the staff wants all players to find matches quickly) and disconnects you will have to deal with since in 2 vs 2 you have to depend on someone.




Leprechaun -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 9:27:01)

@Mother1
Not control :D
I was saying they should try to make the luck factor less and less often. :P
And you are probably right about wait time. I just miss 1v1, that's all xD




Ranloth -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 9:33:41)

Making them occur less often doesn't fix anything. You'll only rant as much (if not more) because their chance to block/deflect/crit was even lower than now and they still did it. Reducing luck means you have to reduce the probability at which it occurs AND the effectiveness. You can reduce just the effectiveness but never the probability since it doesn't fix anything.




Mother1 -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 10:19:38)

@ Leprechaun

why do you think they made nano tech steel, aim assist and the other anti luck cores for? To help reduce the chances of luck factors happening. Why do you think they nerfed crits twice for? To reduce the effect of this luck factor. So it isn't like the staff hasn't done anything to make them happen less often.





Kiing of Frost -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 10:49:48)

Just my two cents here, but I haven't really noticed that big of an impact with luck; I see it all over the forums, but you do have to realize luck is in the game and you have to account for it in your strategy, the engine isn't broken. Yes, I have noticed quite a few builds revolving around luck but the impact is not nearly as large as the start of Omega, and with the changes to blocks and crits the staff seems to be making a move in the right direction to balance luck. Personally I feel that if it destroys you that much, tweak your build a little and expect the worse to happen and not the best in every one of your moves, when i fight i calculate how much of an affect will a block/defl will have on whatever weapon i am using and never hope for a crit, that way when they happen hooray and if not so what. It is a game after all and if I offend your thoughts about the game being broken or not so what, welcome to life on planet earth, its like saying luck is broken on earth because (insert millionaire's name here) has everything whilst you have nothing, stop complaining so much... especially about that which is the very essence of being uncontrollable.
Stay Frosty


P.S.- On this one i do have to agree with Trans and say by reducing the likelyhood they would do nothing but cause more people whining about said luck, but if they reduce the effect of luck, the the game would have more balance; with either of these people will complain all the same, because in a game like this true balance can never be achieved.
[:D]




DunkThatOreo -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:15:42)

I was just deflected twice by an opponent with 0 technology. I'm literally about to kill someone.




Mother1 -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:27:30)

@ king of frost

reducing the percents will only tick off people more when they happen for the soul fact that "There was a (insert number here)% chance that this happened and it just had to happen now.

@ Dunkthatoreo

Even with no tech there is that percent that small percent chance that it will happen.

also extreme low chance of an event happening =/= it will not happen period.




DunkThatOreo -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:33:10)

@Mother1

Yes I know there is a small percent chance of it happening no matter how much technology my opponent has but when I have 48 technology and my opponent has 0 you would think I would be the once getting deflections, not the one getting deflected TWICE in a row. Do you understand why
I might be a little upset?




Kiing of Frost -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:33:43)

@ Mother please read my whole comment before saying something, if you see right here...
quote:

i do have to agree with Trans and say by reducing the likelyhood they would do nothing but cause more people whining about said luck, but if they reduce the effect of luck, the the game would have more balance
As you can see i didn't say if you reduce the chances/probability/likelihood of the occurrence of luck but the effects of luck as a whole. These two things are completely different and i would appreciate if you didn't try to misconstrue my words... :(
Please,
Stay Frosty
[:D]




Mother1 -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:38:14)

@ Dunkthatoero

I can see why you got annoyed. I remember getting into a fight that was pure bad luck against me before (Meaning all my moves were either blocked or deflected) only difference is that I didn't get ticked off since I know that even though the odds are extremely low for something like that to happen doesn't mean it can't.

@ King of frost

I read your comment, and saw that. However you added "But if they lowered the effects of luck the game would be more balanced." So I responded to that bit of it.

Also believe it or not some builds when facing certain other builds as well as lower level players facing higher levels do need luck with planning if they hope to stand a chance. Plus due to the madness of the forums the staff did nerf blocks to let in 15% damage, as well as nerfed crits twice which is just as you said reducing the effects of luck in a sense.




Kiing of Frost -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 12:50:25)

Key word is Effects which is not the probability of them occurring it is essentially the same as what they did to the blocks, maybe you should read a little bit more carefully. Albeit you may have the notion to think otherwise, my vocabulary says probability and effect are two totally different things.
quote:

I read your comment, and saw that. However you added "But if they lowered the effects of luck the game would be more balanced." So I responded to that bit of it.
Again to reiterate the flaw in your understanding, i do not think they should lower the probability because as Trans said...
quote:

Making them occur less often doesn't fix anything.
So as you can very well see by all of this I NEVER Said the probability should increase, rather i said the effects should decrease just like they did with the block and the critical hits.
Thanks,
Stay Frosty
[:D]




Archlord Raistlin -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 14:29:11)

Why do so many people even defend this discussion? The battle engine is a black box, used to make battles "seem" fair. That is why all the blocks/deflects/crits, seemingly against all odds, happen so often. Trying to keep everyone happy pretty much makes it a 60/40 proposition in any battle, despite any logic. We have all had battles where it should not even be close, only to have it come down to the last shot... That is not luck, that is the battle engine.

How can you explain the following frequent occurances:
1) My partner is a 32, etc... versus two 35's. In "most" cases the opponent 35 goes first. In a one-sided battle like that "how could the 32 NOT go first"? Out of symapthy if nothing else...
2) If the other team goes first and I'm nerfed, almost always I am last and do not even have the opportunity to defend myself. Simple 25% random chance would be far better than reality.

It used to be extremely rare (luck) for either of the above to happen. I think everyone is in agreement that the occasional lucky event is OK, no harm done, but as you can see from these posts, there's something allowing way too many "against all odds events" during a single battle. In my opinion, the dex or tech really doesnt matter when I static charge...it's going to be blocked about 1/2 the time. This happens whether the target has 3-4 +7 or 28-33 +10. Static is actually blocked less when the target is NOT nerfed in any way. Other than making sure I cannot regain any useful amount of EP, I can not figure that luck really has anything to do with it at all...





Kiing of Frost -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 15:21:07)

Hey Archlord Raistlin, I haven't seen you in a while, How have ya been?

Anyway, On Topic: they could reduce effects and such, but from my perspective, no matter what they do people will complain about luck; as players we all have to face facts and look at it from their point of view when they change the system we as a community 9 times out of 10 complain about it, like when they changed blocks, now there is no true way to completely negate all damage, yet as a community we still complain that that is not good enough for us. It is high time we grow up and stop acting like babies about a video game, come on the frequency at which luck is happening is not nearly enough to truly complain about, yet somehow in our minds we think that it is completely acceptable to complain because we get beat by said luck, have you ever stopped and looked at your build and found its weakness? "I have 130 dex therefore i should never be blocked and should always block." that is not how this game works, no matter what there is a chance that you will get blocked and somebody will land a hit on you, remember there is a cap on those percents... That is my rant for the day...
Stay Frosty
[:D]




Jekyll -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/2/2013 21:56:09)

What is the chance of someone with 45 support doing this to another with 17 support: 2 Stuns, and 3 Stun avoids, all of which happen consecutively?

Since stuns are independent events, the probability is 30% x 30% x 23% x 23% x 23% = 0.109503%, which is 1.09 times out of 1000.

According to Merriam-Webster, being lucky is "producing or resulting in good by chance". Therefore, it is reasonable to say that essentially ANY event that occurs despite having a mathematically low probability is "luck".

I get insulted, cursed and sworn at for engaging in open discussions about luck. With statistics and numbers to back up my claims, I'm one who talks logic, sense, and one whom many others agree with. There are always people who don't believe that they have gotten lucky, and turn to various places to vent their frustration.[:(]





nico0las -> RE: Luck factor discussion (7/6/2013 3:24:27)

*I always get in trouble for inserting that letter -_-
** insert favorite profanities


quote:

After all, Epicduel player logic says that 1% = 0%, same goes for 30+% = 100%

Preach.
This is so true: 1% means 1 in 100 tries, not one in five or one in ten. 30% means one in three (roughly), not a guarantee.
I've always said this though, luck is fair. luck does not pick sides, it does not select favorites. It is simply mathematics and probability.
When you GET lucky and hit that game winning crit: what goes through your mind: "D*mn right, I showed that noob."
When you get crit and lose: LUCKY **"

Really, luck is just a crappy mentality. It's just math. It won't pick someone else's side, it won't make you purposefully lose. MAYBE you should check the math in YOUR builds and realize that 30% isn't a guarantee, in fact it's actually rather unlikely.




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