RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:33:35)

@ Ash

Now you're just being cruel, I like the Doom Knight Class
the way it is (Alot of people Do[:D]), and it hurts my feelings
that you'd throw something I love about Dragon Fable away,
I like how easy Doom Knight makes Dragon Fable, I like that
it makes the Game easy, and if I that option was taken away;
I think a piece of my Soul would go with it[&o]...

Have a Heart Ash, show some Love PLEASE!?!?



Dragesvard Warrior -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:46:39)

I would love to "ateast try" a Revamped DoomKnight. There are several skills I don't use almost not at all, and if you do change it.. please atleast try to keep it as powerful, if not have just a minor difference please?

And before things go further... No, I don't ALWAYS use DoomKnight, I mainly focus on DeathKnight or Riftwalker. DoomKnight, to me is sort of a "3rd Strike, Now Die" sort of thing if I encounter inhumanely hard quests/bosses.



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:59:16)

@ Dragesvard Warrior

And if the the Designer's Left the option to go back to
the O.P. Version, so would I, the O.P. Doom Knight is in many
player's Eye's the Super Saiyan Class of the Game, please join
me in requesting two version's of the Doom Knight Class, so we
can put a smile on everyone's(or at least almost everyone's) face?[;)]



Greldracion -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:03:32)

Keep in mind that Ash did not state that DmK is getting nerfed. It is getting REBALANCED so that most if not all moves could be used on the super saiyen class and feel worthwhile.



WornDogma -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:03:36)

I don't have Doomknight but the way I see it is that right now Doomknight isn't Doomknight, it's a BoomKnight as in press a button and Boom you're done. All enemies die to fast to get a sense of true doom. If as revamps it will still be a tier 4 but the power will be spread more evenly in all the skills and your enemies can feel the doom and you'll be a Doomknight instead a Boomknight.It might up the amount of terror you can output through superior strategy and make you a DOOM!Knight.

(A April Fools doom class with the damage output or animations of doomknight and the enlarged head would be hilarious.)



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:11:51)

quote:

^So you could still kill a mob in 1 hit? That being said you certanly could not with the multi. If things were like that before the buff it seems that people still used only a couple of skills maybe even less then now probably only carve.
on a crit, may be. but that was before the huge hp spike. right now you cant kill anything in quests with this much dmg. in wars, monsters have less hp but the multi did so little that it was better to use mage instead.

quote:

@Dracojan: Break was meant to be a 200% damage attack as well. The second hit was bugged for the longest time, though.
it was meant but it was broken untill after the dmg buff.



Snakezarr -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:12:14)

I just can't understand how people think the doomknight armor in its current form is enjoyable, it literally turns the game into a huge cut scene where nothing matters [&:]



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:30:45)

Alright everyone, I just took care of a few posts. If you're upset at the very mention that the class is being looked at for changes, that's fine. Complaining just to complain and not having seen or tested anything isn't. That's also not allowed and most of you know that. Thank you to those of you who correctly expressed displeasure and are being civil about it, I do appreciate that.\ I get that some people want it to stay as it is and I respect that but please don't get upset over hypothetical changes before they are even up for testing.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:34:30)

Can Life Carve just get nerfed into the ground?
Literally every challenge boss that will come out from now on needs to be able to resist it in order to be very difficult.

It doesn't seem right to design countless new enemies with "resists Life Carve" when Life Carve is the problem.




Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:39:51)

@ Snakezarr

But don't you See? some people like being that powerful, its what
makes the game fun and enjoyable for them, not the challenge,
there are many different kind's who play dragon fable, who LOVE
Dragon Fable, and I think that we can please everyone if we try,
if the Dev's can make a Buff version and normal version for Edd,
they can make an O.P. Version, and a Rebalanced Version for Doomknight,

We can all be happy with this, the People who love a Good Challenge and
the people who love Great Power, all of us, honestly; can you think of a
single reason to disagree with this option?

Let's work Together, let's show the Dev's we are one in this!



MR.LMM -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 18:49:47)

I'm going to *gasp* take Ash's side on this and say, as an DoomKnight myself, that the armor needs a bit of restructuring. The class has moves that do basically nothing because no one in their right mind would use them. It opts to have a few 'LOL I killed the thing' moves at a cost of functioning as a class on the whole. Maybe rebuilding the class to spread the wealth and have all of its moves serve some situational purpose is for the best. Might that make the class a bit less OP and gamebreaking by making it conform to the meta? Yes. Might that be a good thing for DoomKnights overall? Yes.

Also, looking future-wise, a less OP PTW class might theoretically open the door to more and varied PTW classes in the future, as is the case with AQW. And as we all know, more choices in playstyle can only make the game better long-term.



ShimmerSoul -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 19:49:15)

The fact that the devs felt the need to deliberately and obviously patch a bonus boss just to stop DoomKnight from trampling it with zero effort should be evidence enough that something's wrong with it. While I do confess that I greatly enjoy running around like an unstoppable juggernaut blasting everything to ashes with a casual glance, DmK feels sort of hollow to me. It's not even that it eliminates the challenge from battles. I hate overly hard games, so the easier it is, the better. DmK, though, is basically a machine gun in a game where everyone else is armed with a stick. Yes, it's far more efficient, but sadly, the machine gun can't really do much except kill things very fast. A stick, on the other hand, you can wave around and block and parry with and spin like a baton and break in two for easy dual-wielding. It's not bad, but it doesn't feel "cool" to me in a game where feeling cool is most of the reason why you train anything beyond Necromancer. Mainly because only a few of its skills are useful, and the most powerful of those are always most effective when spammed relentlessly.

DmK skills I actually use, ordered by frequency of use:

1. Spikes
2. Life Carve
3. Break
4. Blood Rite
5. Wake (only for bosses)
6. Favor

That's 8 skills that are being ignored completely. Granted, Taunt and Vengance work as one, but even so, that's only around half a class we've got here. In the DF of old, that wouldn't be a problem - that's about how many old Deathknight and Necromancer had going for them. However, so far, Ash has been revamping classes in a way that gives them a full set of skills that are *le gasp* actually all worth using in normal gameplay. By comparison, DmK almost feels like a relic to me. My opinion may not be popular, but as long as it remains the undisputed strongest DF class ever by any margin, I'd welcome a revamp.

One thing that might be worth bringing up because I don't think anyone has yet - might it be possible to use the Artifact system to allow for a pseudo-revamp without needing two DB slots for it? Like, some sort of accessory you could buy from an in-game shop that turns the old DmK into a version with some (or all) of its useless skills (looking at you, Shadow and Dark Aura) patched up? Or do Artifacts also require a large chunk of database?

Alternatively, I'm still going to push for a Doom Snugglebear Helm Artifact that makes it into into a totally groovy disco dancin' machine.



Chaoshaper -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 19:55:20)

Ash does have a point. Everyone is complaining about how its the strongest class around and its gonna get nerfed, but Ash has reworked quite a few classes and made them so much better. Sure, i like the DoomKnuke armor the way it is, but even i can admit that it really is broken. I want to see just what Ash is planning before i make any comments as to why i like/dislike it.



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 20:19:04)

@ Shimmersoul/ ASH PLEASE READ

Shimmersoul, I think you might be on to something there, you know; but since
many player's are push for the class itself to be Rebalanced, how about...

THIS: We Rebalance the Class like Ash want's BUT we add an Artifact to the game
that O.P.'s the New Rebalanced Class! think about it; The class itself gets the Rebalancing
so many are looking for, the Power Fanatic's like myself get what we want, and the best part
is that SINCE it's and Artifact; we can either make it Hard to Get(like a low drop from a tough
quest/Boss Battle), or Hard to Make ( LOTS of Unlucky DOOM essence's, Shadow Bone Shard's
and Primeval Corrupt Essence's) and if we go this route we can even add a Merge System, like
with the DOOM and DESTINY Weapons, for example: Maybe we make the Artifact's Bonus Weak
at it's original Level (5 Maybe) BUT, as we keep empowering it, the percentage bonus just Keeps Growing,
until at Level 80 the Artifact's Percentage Boost is Truly O.P., and Since we built it up the Hard way it'll feel
Like we earned all that power although maybe we could ban the artifact from PVP and possibly non Boss battle's
during active War's, so nobody can cheat their way to victory, and since all the O.P. come's from an artifact
player's who don't want an O.P. Doom Knight Don't get stuck with one, EVERYBODY WINS!!!

Please Tell me what you think People I'M DYING TO KNOW!



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 20:27:12)

i see something here. ppl think that the class will be nerfed and are afraid of it. rebalancing and fixing game breaking stuff doesnt really mean that. as Ash said, the hp cost of rite is broken and to rebalance it it can cost a static amount of hp or a % of your hp. if its not tied to the enemy hp, then its not broken. this will make the skill actually better since you wont take something like 500 dmg from using the skill on a boss.
the other possible changes, if they ever happen, will make all the useless skill actually useful and overall the whole class will have much better utility. and the insane dmg of this purely offensive class that we love will remain just as high overall. rampaging through quests and war waves will be just as easy and fast. wouldnt you like a more useful class with the same awesome offensive power? i sure wouldnt mind :D



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 20:28:09)

Ash has been pretty open about the fact that Doom Knight will never get an artifact.

I'm guessing when he said that, he was taking both the class in its current state and the plans he has for it down the line(if Geo says yes to him working on it) into consideration when saying no.

Doom Knight will always be the most powerful class this game has, even if Ash does rebalance it, it'll still be leaps and bounds above everything else because it was said to be the strongest.
OP gamebreaking OHKO anything and everything =/= powerful, that is more abusive of what was in place when no classes were at a standard. Now that all classes are actually useful, DoomKnights abusive OPness really sticks out.

Giving it an artifact to become OP gamebreaky would make people think all artifacts are going to do that from then on and it would just underhand what Ash wants to do in the first place.



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 20:43:25)

i guess i'm also on ash's side here, DmK can't have 2 version so that it does not occupy 2 slots on the DB, the artifact idea would not solve the problem of having a broken armor ingame, you'd just make a bit harder to obtain, but it'd still be broken

do keep in mind that, after the proper changes are made, the class will still be the best class in the game, it'll still be able to kill almost all things with super ease, it'll be the strongest tier 3, not a tier 4, simply because tier 4 were never meant to exist to begin with... or at least, that's what i understood from ash's posts on this thread, but of course, let's keep our opinions at bay for some months, until ash has the time to code and make a preview for us, so that we can actually see for ourselves if the class is still worth it



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 20:54:54)

@ Brasca123 & Hollowsoul

You guy's make it sound like you'd be forced to use the Artifact,
but you wouldn't, plus it would even be that useful on lower level's
and to top it off it would be banned from pvp and active wars, please
explain to me how that would break the Class, or ruin your experience with
it specifically, because I fail to see how an optional item ruin's the Rebalancing;
Please explain.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 21:06:04)

Right now Doom Knight is able to beat pretty much everything with extreme ease. It's been able to beat things that were supposed to be hard or impossible with ease even.

The hard modes of merged Akriloth that Ash thought would be challenging, Seppy during final 13th until Rolith re-worked him 2-3 times to make him extra impossible, Impossible Wargoth, and etc.

If Ash were to re-balance Doom Knight to where it was still the strongest class, but not so overkill, it would allow for challenging bosses and hard things almost all classes could try and enjoy over him trying to work so Doom Knight can't just OHKO it and all other classes can't dream of even trying to do it.


If Ash were to do all the work to re-balance it, then go and release an item that makes DmK the same as it was, it wouldn't fix anything. He would still have to always code fun and new things with the powerhouse of DmK in mind Which alienates players who don't have that class during hard/extreme battles as most of them are now built so DmK can't beat them with ease.

It would be Ash releasing an item that gives game breaking power to the players to OHKO everything from enemies to challenge bosses, which he will never do.





dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 21:09:47)

I like your entusiasm but the artifact suggestion in my opinion is not gonna happen because its a lot of work and you need 2 slots on the data base which I hope Ash has access to. Did I mentioned lots of work besides the fact that the staff is overworked we really need to think about their limit.
^Did you beat the gnome on hard mode?



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 21:18:00)

@ Dragon_monster

The artifact doesn't need to come out on the same date as
the Rebalanced armor, it just need's to come out period,
I don't mind Waiting an extra year or two for the developer's
to make it in what little time they can spare for it, as long I'll get
it eventually, and I don't know what you mean by Gnome, maybe
I've beaten it but if I did I don't remember it (at Least not by name...).



mds2006 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 22:43:38)

quote:

Keep in mind that Ash did not state that DmK is getting nerfed. It is getting REBALANCED so that most if not all moves could be used on the super saiyen class and feel worthwhile.


But the way I've read his posts, it makes it sound like he is going to nerf some stuff.

Making every move useful, but making the already most-useful moves a bit less so.

Something about making it high-Tier 3 or something, rather than it being alone at Tier 4, right? Doing that, instead of keeping the strongest moves the same in terms of power, then bringing the never-used moves up to that level.

That's what it looks like to me, anyway...


Edit, at Ash's post below:
It'll still be Tier 4, then. Well that makes me hate this idea of rebalancing DmK a bit less.

Though regardless of how disapproving I am about it, I have literally no say in the matter, and admittedly I am a bit curious about what these changes will end up being, so I guess I'll just wait till something actually happens before I say how much I hate the updates... because they don't exist to be legitimately hated on yet. <_<

...Players (or maybe just DmK owners? That obviously makes the most sense) will be able to test the changes to DmK before they make it to the actual class, right?



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 22:49:50)

It will remain the only tier 4, losing the game breaking parts but bringing the other effects up to where they should be for that level without breaking things by doing so. I said that it should have been a high tier 3 but because it's already in a league of its own I'm not going to then drop it down.



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 23:17:55)

@ Ash

Will Life Carve still at least be effective at countering damage done to your
Life Point's while fighting against Uber Powerful Bosses Like Wargoth,
also will you please either get rid of split or at least make it absorb Mana
from you're enemies?

Finally, will this Rebalancing, include the Weapon, helmet, and cape being
Rebalanced too ((Talking to myself)Please say no and mean it?), and/ or
A new and updated look for the Armor, Weapon, Helmet, Cape?



Chaoshaper -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 23:43:49)

Rebalancing is just skill/numbers, Ash isn't in charge of art/animations. Will the reworked doomknight be more than just 'hit one of three buttons to win'? I really want a class thats powerful because of its wide variety of skills and not just the whole poke it once and it dies kind of thing.:l



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