RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 10:40:23)

^Have all that and still have 10k.
And yes god forbid that I do not wanna allow most monsters from waves to have a turn that will really really slow down the wpm until catapults or worse have long animation. Also there other classes that make you think and are balanced you can use that I should not be forced to lose something I like because some people have to use the most op class.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 10:51:39)

@Ash: People seem to forget there is nothing in game, that is meant to beaten that you can't beat with a little thinking.

@dragon_monster: It's more because when most people get the class they become lazy and start saying the game is too easy, which is idiotic. And saying that you want to keep the class that powerful just for wars is pretty silly. I'm done talking about this class now, Ash has already said everything in his last post that I could say.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:00:04)

^Just read, he wrote all before me like a couple of tens of seconds faster. He seems to be really against pay to win. I really wanna know what does he consider it to be pay to win?
I still stand by what I like and that is my reason why it should stay like that.



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:06:18)

Pay to win is defined as paying money to get an advantage, either large or small, that makes a game easier or allows you to "win" by no longer needing to use another item besides the one you purchased. DoomKnight is Pay to Win.

If it gets changed it would still be able to clear waves faster than anything else in the game. The thing is it would lose most of the broken "Lolz I do % damage to EVERYTHING!" and most of it's skills would then become useful because I could make them that way. As it is now, no they all aren't useful but I'm not making them that way unless I adjust the entire armor. In a couple months it may not matter as I'll be having an indepth discussion about a few things.



Immortal God -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:09:22)

I dont think the class should be changed or nerfed in anyway unless there is some sort of compensation. Sure the class is op as heck. The class stomps and destroys everything. Nothing survives more than 3 turns against the class unless its a boss, and even then it doesnt survive more than 6. However, the fact is that we paid for it. Overpowered and all. Sure we paid for coins, but we also wanted the overpowered gear that came with it. If its power were to be reduced I feel like I would be using an item thats now different than the one that I paid for. Now, if it was stated before or mentioned that the class is subject to change and we shouldnt take it for granted thats fine. Otherwise I dont think it should be changed at all.

Its not like this wasnt known when the class was released. It was pretty obvious and has been obvious all this time. To change it now just doesnt seem right. You can't come back months and probably years later and say oops this was a mistake lets change it or fix or bring it back in line.

Go look at AQ and what happened to Poelala and Dunamis then come talk to me about "not changing paid items" and "months or years later". If I wanted to I could invoke that clause NOW and do it. I'm waiting to talk to Geo when I have the time to do the change properly and in less of a knee jerk manner. Don't confuse my being busy with it never possibly being adjusted because I could tomorrow if I really wanted to. I just want to make the armor still useful and in less of a "OMG HE CHANGED IT" way. ~Ash

What happened in AQ isnt the same. In AQ it has always been said that they would and will never release a game breaking and OP item. They even have a game balance section to correct things that may be to powerful. So it use AQ as an example here doesnt work. This class has always been stated to be the most powerful and game breaking armor in the game. Which as I said was KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING. So as I said unless this was something mentioned early on that the class was subject to change. Changing it now goes against everything.

Nope, it doesn't. We hold the rights to change any item, at any point, for any reason. We try NOT to because if people paid money for it we don't want to cause issues just randomly, but if there is a need we are well within our rights to change any item in the game we feel necessary. You don't OWN anything in game. Everything is property of AE and subject to change, removal, or loss of access at any time. Please don't try and use that logic as it doesn't hold up. ~Ash



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:20:07)

@ash. alright, after thinking a bit i think i agree with most things you said, the only thing i think i disagree with is the part of:

quote:

At what point is the game actually hard? Yeah when you put it into hard mode it is but for the most part the game is faceroll easy except in a few boss fights. You don't need an armor like DoomKnight to make it easier. You need it to avoid having to plan and invest more than 5 minutes into a release.


yeah, most of the game is pretty easy, not faceroll easy though, but there are some parts that are actually hard, when, merged akriloth comes to mind, i remember i've only beaten aquavrin from water primal because i use a destiny weapon is 20 levels above a normal weapon, maybe that's because i'm low lv, or maybe because my build is somewhat wrong, but i think the game has some hard points, i know you said the except in a few boss fights thing, but the way you said it, it looks like even those bosses are pretty easy

@immortal god. the staff already said quite a lot of times IIRC that you are actually paying for the DC, even if the armor is broken and you bought it for that, it does not mean it is not subject to changes, it is, just like any other item in the game, though it will remain strong, and maybe the staff will take a bit more care when changing premium stuff, but it is a bonus for item that comes with a DC package, not the other way around



Immortal God -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:23:36)

quote:

@immortal god. the staff already said quite a lot of times IIRC that you are actually paying for the DC, even if the armor is broken and you bought it for that, it does not mean it is not subject to changes, it is, just like any other item in the game, though it will remain strong, and maybe the staff will take a bit more care when changing premium stuff, but it is a bonus for item that comes with a DC package, not the other way around


My issue has more to do with the amount of time the class has existed. This isnt something brand new or something that was only released recently. This class has been out for a good while now. Its not like this was some hidden fact that the class literally destroys everything in sight. If you didnt want the game to be pay to win then it probably shouldnt have even existed in the first place.

I have an issue with this being a debate now because it feels like this: "Oops maybe we shoulndt have made this armor so OP". Then why was it made in the first place?



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:31:54)

@above. see ash's new edit



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:32:00)

^This pay to win is a little subjective and confusing for example buying membership in a mmo lets say SWOTOR is it pay to win because it gives you xp boost and access to better armors?
I am asking this because we are talking at pay to win that give a very very big advantage compared to the one who does not pay or all pay to win being bad?



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:39:15)

quote:

I have an issue with this being a debate now because it feels like this: "Oops maybe we shoulndt have made this armor so OP". Then why was it made in the first place?

Because there were no standards back then. If you look at all the old armors it was "Hmm...lets just kinda make this like this." There was no number crunching being done, things like Paladin being all "chance to do X" happened, and things like Kathool and DoomKnight were released. Now I'm using actual standards to design classes. I'm using math to keep them in a set of limits. I push those limits a little bit sometimes based on feedback but if you notice I usually stand firm on upper limits to make sure we don't have another DoomKnight. If that was the case when it was released we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead when DoomKnight was released every time a new item came out people begged for more crit, they got it. They begged for more damage, each new class was stronger and stronger than the last. They begged for an OP class, they got it. Instead of balancing things appropriately the game was just kinda "here's numbers."

Now that I'm balancing things appropriately I'm going through and making sure everything is on an even playing field. It's not to the amount that AQ is but there are a general set of rules of "you don't do more than this or less than this" for almost every situation I've encountered so far stating and balancing classes and items. It's what the whole stat redo was based around and what the item re-balancing is based around. DoomKnight is one of the few things that needs to be adjusted but because some people don't want it touched they'll cry foul when I even mention it. It doesn't matter the time frame, if I had come on right after it was released I'd still having people crying foul. Yes, it's been out for a while. So what? All the older classes were out for a while, should I have left them alone and in the dust to never be used really because they sucked compared to all the new classes? Time is only a factor in DC sell backs. Other than that time holds no meaning when it comes to someone joining a team and trying to fix issues that were just left.

quote:

This pay to win is a little subjective and confusing for example buying membership in a mmo lets say SWOTOR is it pay to win because it gives you xp boost and access to better armors?
I am asking this because we are talking at pay to win that give a very very big advantage compared to the one who does not pay or all pay to win being bad?

Small bonuses and quicker leveling I'm fine with. That's an incentive not a game breaker. Imagine if that game offered a "Pay $80 and get a lightsaber and Crystal, Hilt, Mod, and Enhancement granting you a 940-3900 range (Changes based on level), 50% hp heal on hit, 100% shield for 5 seconds that triggered every 6 seconds and +600 to all stats". Would that be ok or would players there scream it's P2W? Exp bonuses and slightly better armor and enhancements is one thing, totally game breaking equipment is another.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:45:56)

^You are right they most were weak compared to the base classes and they are tier 1 above only angler and the Frostval armor. So yeah you are right if how long they were left alone would have been a reason that would have been really bad. Anyway I think Doomknight is a issue because its very very powerful and the rest of them were hardly powerful so held it in higher standards and care for it like is now more.
Edit: Yeah some okay some really not but the issue would be is it a significant part of the players or not that have a issue with it?



Immortal God -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:49:34)

quote:

Because there were no standards back then. If you look at all the old armors it was "Hmm...lets just kinda make this like this." There was no number crunching being done, things like Paladin being all "chance to do X" happened, and things like Kathool and DoomKnight were released. Now I'm using actual standards to design classes. I'm using math to keep them in a set of limits. I push those limits a little bit sometimes based on feedback but if you notice I usually stand firm on upper limits to make sure we don't have another DoomKnight. If that was the case when it was released we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead when DoomKnight was released every time a new item came out people begged for more crit, they got it. They begged for more damage, each new class was stronger and stronger than the last. They begged for an OP class, they got it. Instead of balancing things appropriately the game was just kinda "here's numbers."

Now that I'm balancing things appropriately I'm going through and making sure everything is on an even playing field. It's not to the amount that AQ is but there are a general set of rules of "you don't do more than this or less than this" for almost every situation I've encountered so far stating and balancing classes and items. It's what the whole stat redo was based around and what the item re-balancing is based around. DoomKnight is one of the few things that needs to be adjusted but because some people don't want it touched they'll cry foul when I even mention it. It doesn't matter the time frame, if I had come on right after it was released I'd still having people crying foul. Yes, it's been out for a while. So what? All the older classes were out for a while, should I have left them alone and in the dust to never be used really because they sucked compared to all the new classes? Time is only a factor in DC sell backs. Other than that time holds no meaning when it comes to someone joining a team and trying to fix issues that were just left.


80$! Sure I got coins with it, but at the end of the day it was still 80$ to get the class. I dont think that it can be compared to other classes so easily. I didnt pay 80$ for an even playing field. Sure some might say you paid for coins, but that is advertised as a package with a piece for every one you buy. The last one giving you an armor. With a setup like that I dont think you can say you only paid for coins. Especially since the items themselves are advertised more than the coins.



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 11:56:16)

And I never said it would be beyond weak when I got done did I? I do get that it was an "expensive" bonus. I do get that it's meant to be stronger. What I'm saying is PARTS of the armor are broken to the point that it invalidates playing the game. Changing Blood Rite to be something akin to "pay X% health do y% extra damage NOT TIED TO ENEMY HEALTH" isn't ruining the armor. It would make it so that you don't just break everything you come across. You'd still be able to one shot most mobs and take out bosses in no time with any changes I make, that's not something I'd change because it's part of what the armor was based around, the only difference is it wouldn't invalidate everything in the game with the set of skills it has now and all the skills would be useful.

That's the part people aren't getting. Have I ruined any other class I've touched? Have I totally just broken an armor and made it unplayable? Or have, for the most part, all the changes I've made made the armors better than they ever were using effects not previously seen in some cases and in others giving them combos and ways to do things that allow for more depth? If you all can stop with the knee jerks, wait until I have the time to properly do this, talk to Geo about it, and then present my changes without constantly going, "OMG WE PAID MONEY IF YOU CHANGE IT WE RIOT!" everyone might have a better time. When you all even admit it's blatant OP and you paid to not have to play anymore that's an issue.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 12:04:57)

Ok I get your point and I will wait after all as long as I can still wipe the floor with waves in wars its all good for me. Also better get back to the lore and story of this game as I like it a lot.



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 12:34:38)

@Ash if you are going to change doomknight, that would be awesome. you havent disappointed us so far and im pretty sure you wont do it with dmk. youve got my support :D



Mordred -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 13:20:17)

I think people are forgetting that DoomKnight wasn't even released in the form it currently is. It didn't do stupid amounts of damage on everything when it first released.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 13:23:27)

^How was it before? for example could it kill a mob in 1 hit with blood rite?



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 13:33:36)

^no. blood rite did 200% dmg and was the strongest single turn skill that it had. most attacks dealt 100% dmg. it was doing abysmal dmg and only rite, the dots skill and the last on the right did more than 100% dmg. the % based attack of life carve was the same and you played the class by spamming it. now you can actually use the other skills and do more dmg untill you face a monster with a lot of health, like at least 30k+ health.
right now blood rite does 200% of normal attack dmg. and for a lvl 80 player the normal attack dmg is close to 400%. so you do about 800% dmg with it right now. if it crits its 1600%. with the build i have right now, thats about 2k dmg on crit and 1k on a non crit.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 13:43:20)

^So you could still kill a mob in 1 hit? That being said you certanly could not with the multi. If things were like that before the buff it seems that people still used only a couple of skills maybe even less then now probably only carve.



Mordred -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 14:47:29)

@Dracojan: Break was meant to be a 200% damage attack as well. The second hit was bugged for the longest time, though.

^See, when you aren't roflstomping everything into paste through sheer damage, DoomKnight's various tools such as huge Dot damage, damage reflection and nullification, exposing weaknesses to Darkness, they all were much more viable. People used them. My favorite things to do is set up the Revert->Void->Wake->Blast combo.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 15:57:18)

@Mordred: It'd be fantastic if DoomKnight went back to like that. Powerful but requiring on more than raw damage.



Almighty Agathor -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 16:44:30)

I wish it was like how it used to be! Or, if it WAS doable, to have the choice between both, DURING WARS. I see no need to have this much power all of the time. Granted, it is my new favorite class, but that is because I hardly see anybody with the class saved on their Char pages, and that it is the coolest looking class.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:02:02)

DoomKnight would be a fine class if it was balanced and allowed to still be the strongest class, without being as game breakingly destroying as it is right now.

The fact that you only have to use three skills to pretty much destroy anything in this game, that isn't an impossible boss, isn't good class design when Doom Knight was supposed to be the most powerful class when you used all the skills it had to offer.
Heck, DoomKnight shouldn't even have any skills other than Life Carve, Doom Spikes, and Blood Rite as you can pretty much own anything in this game with those three skills. If Ash is able to work with DoomKnight, I certainly hope he can make it where you might actually have to use one of the other 11 skills instead of "Blood Rite for insta-OHKO, finish with Life Carve if they survive."

Also, when a class can beat Seppy, who was supposed to be completely impossible, 3 or 4 times before Rolith actually made him impossible to beat, there is an issue with how much power it has. [8D]



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:12:45)

@ Ash

Look, some people may want Doom Knight's to be toned down BUT,
other's would much prefer it stays the same, I can tell you for example the I'd
be outraged if Doomknight (the NPC Sepulchure was unstoppable, should we be any less?)
was Toned Down, but at the same time plenty are desperately hoping for a tone down,
in this there is only one solution, YOU HAVE TO PLEASE EVERYONE; the way things are
the only way to get out of this without Rioting and Flame War's raging on the forum is
to make TWO DIFFERENT VERSION's: the OVERPOWERED VERSION, and the REBALANCED
VERSION, and yes I know there will be some Elitist's who will be screaming for the O.P.
Version to be removed, but those guy's are just being unreasonable.

Please listen to REASON in this Ash[8|], I honestly love the DoomKnight Class and if the
rebalanced version were the only one, I don't think I feel much like supporting Dragon Fable
anymore, by Playing or by Buying Dragon Coins...

PLEASE LISTEN!?!?



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/27/2015 17:18:55)

Again,

quote:

If you all can stop with the knee jerks, wait until I have the time to properly do this, talk to Geo about it, and then present my changes without constantly going, "OMG WE PAID MONEY IF YOU CHANGE IT WE RIOT!" everyone might have a better time.


Have you seen any stats? Have you tried any "new version"? Have you seen any anything that would show how any changes would be made? Until then you can knee jerk all you want but it doesn't change the fact that I'm going to propose changes, while trying to keep it strong enough that people don't lose out on anything while no longer breaking the game. It's still months away. Calm down, stop knee jerk reacting to something that hasn't even happened, and look at the bright side that all the skills will end up usable.

quote:

YOU HAVE TO PLEASE EVERYONE

Also, no I really don't. I only have to please 1 person. Geo. While I would like to make everyone happy I will never make everyone happy and there will always be people who hate me for doing things. The fact of the matter is I don't always do things to be liked, I do them because they need to be done.



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