RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 0:23:50)

I don't get this anger...

So blood rite doesn't do 800-1600% damage OH MAH GAWDS MAH DAMAGES!

Seriously?
The class will in no way be BAD, it will be a lot more balanced in the fact it's strong yeah it trumps all other armors, but it wont be this I use 2-3 skills and NOTHING more.
Is that really that hard to get?

We have an armor that breaks the game, and yeah while fun it also leaves you using 20% of the armor if that, it also provides skills that do nothing or dang near close with high costs that make them shunned even further.

So blood rite now goes from 800-1600 to a max of 800%? Oh wows....it lost half it's damage but think about that. How much is 800% damage? 72 base damage is now turned into 576 in 1 hit. Not counting stat bonuses.

The whole point is that the armor only used X few skills which it shouldn't be doing. Ash has more than shown what he is capable of when it comes to the other classes being useful when the skills before were not really all that great. He isn't going to turn it into a pile of penguin droppings. He is going to nerf some skills blood rite being the main one. Spikes a possible second and maybe something else, but likely overall the others will either remain the same or in fact increase in use so what part of this is bad?



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 1:03:41)

@Chaoshaper

I'm kind of the exact opposite, I quite enjoy the whole; Point your finger
at it and annihilate it like your some kind of God, I guess you could say my
complex with this whole Rebalancing thing is based entirely around the fact that I'm
Obsessed with Power, a Power Fanatic or Power Maniac, if you will, not to mention I'm
an ultra self critical Perfectionist, hence my Motto:
What my Eye see's, Die's instantly, completely and perfectly, anything less, is unacceptable...

I consider a long hard challenging battle to be struggling (Meaning I feel Like it's my fault if
I'm actually struggling to beat the legendary super boss that the Dev's cooked up to be impossible
to beat and that everyone else must be having a super easy time killing it.)that's why I'm so Miffed
over losing the Ultimate Destructive Power of the Doom Knight to something More balanced and
strategic, I guess you could say that to me that being Challenged is anathema, Pure, ultimate,
Destructive Power wielded with perfect skill and ultimate efficiency is all that matter's to
me in a game like this, while it a relief that the Doom Knight will Remain Tier 4 I find all these
player's obsession with being challenged over being unstoppable to be more than a little bit confusing,
as I have for a VERY long time...

@ Shadowdragon 666

People Like Me are obsessed with power, we LOVE Causing damage that insanely high, we don't get this
whole obsession with balance at all, our definition of rebalancing the class would be making the useless
skill's as insanely powerful as the Super Powerful Skill's[:D] . So I hope that explain's some thing's to
you, people like Me draw Joy from a Different aspect of gameplay, as opposed to someone like you,
we like different thing's is all...



mds2006 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 2:03:00)

quote:

...but likely overall the others will either remain the same or in fact increase in use so what part of this is bad?


...The nerfs! [&:]


I agree with basically everything Lord Arkatares posted. Also saying that DmK has made me dislike playing through the Espina Rosa quests. Battles take waaay too long. It makes sense that it's that way, and I get why it's like that, due to the story of the place, but still. <.<
Though the parts where you play as Fleshweaver (and especially the un-possessed version) and as the Baby Dragon were cool. Because they're at least decently strong.



Gamyu -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 3:27:26)

As someone who has been using Dmk armor alot ever since I got it like 2 months ago, (to catch up on quests after a long hiatus, now farming for mats/new stuff), I would welcome this change. Like many are saying, you only really use 5-8 skills with Dmk. And for me, the animations are...meh, and except for Vengence (and maybe Spikes), nothing about the Dmk just spell "Dooooom" for me. I want a armor that is in a league of its own, but one shot most monsters and two shots most bosses is just too op. If Ash had revamped many classes and never broke one, and confirmed that Dmk will still be Tier 4, I say let him revamp it.

Just have a few questions for Ash if he can answer if Dmk does get revamp,

Will the armor/helm/cape/sword appearances change? I ask this because I hate how the helm looks, the color of the helm doesn't match the armor and it looks really plain compare to Seppy's helm. Also, I use NSoD with other classes and the way a few of the classes hold it seem wrong. For example, while standing still, Cryptic holds NSoD like a dagger, which of course look really wrong. Any chance that there will be an option for Staff, Dagger, or Scythe, like a shop to trade one for another?

Will there be new animations? This has already been stated, but I dislike Dmk's animations, 3 or 4 of the animations are just you moving one of your arm a bit...

I'm happy enough if Dmk get revamps, better if there will also be new animations; the appearance changes are just icing on the cake.





megakyle777 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 3:28:09)

Ash, just saying, I do NOT envy your job right now. You need to keep the feel of OP Tier 4ness while keeping it balanced and making sure people like myself do not get mad at even the idea of it, and that's like juggling chainsaws while being attacked by bears on fire wielding machine guns while falling down a almost bottomless pit with spikes at the bottom while a angry Balrog gnaws your face off. 0-0

On the topic of Doomknight, I expect Ash will do the same thing he does for every class: Make a test build, let DA's test it, adjust it based on our feedback (maybe with more leniency then usual with it being a Tier 4 class) and in the end it will be a class everyone is happy with. So calm down. I trust in him not to ruin this.[;)]

But man, your job must be tough sometimes. NO idea how you cope with us. 0-0



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 6:51:59)

Honestly just scrap the class for like a week to see how many people have mental breakdowns over it. Sit back and lol at the rage. XD



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 7:38:26)

if doomknight gets nerfed will we get better art/animations to make up for it? honestly as long as i look like an all powerful monster i'll be happy its why i spent $64.95 on doom knight in the first place. well that and i suck with all the other classes.



kpnut -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 7:57:42)

@Shadows Morgenstern: funnily enough that wouldn't really affect me all that much, I pretty much used it for boss fights and nothing else.

@Ash: if the DmK class isn't supposed to be OP (I honestly don't care either way, just everything said on the forums infecting my view on it) are you still going to make it one of the more powerful tier 3 classes? And will Avatar of Time be as (or even more) powerful than it? Because it doesn't make much sense for the avatar of time to be less powerful than a deathknight on steroids.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:05:53)

haha id hope they wouldn't nerf it that far idk it wouldn't be worth the money anymore XD



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:09:22)

As pointed out you're not paying for the class but the DC's you get. The class is nothing but a bonus.

So yes it can be "Nerfed" As in some skills will not be anywhere near the way they are now OP and game breaking. That nerf to those skills also means other skills get BUFFS which means more of the armor is used and worth using.

It's a trade off.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:13:14)

im just afraid that trade off will go too far. also during the time i bought the class it sure looked like it was about the class seeing how it was being advertised.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:17:07)

The big trade off you're going to see if Blood Rite getting smacked hard. The rest likely wont be as bad but Rite is going to get nerfed badly. It is to OP for the game.I mean when you have a skill that gives you 200% damage and you don't even use it...that's kinda off.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:19:59)

oh? i never use blood rite if thats all (or most of) the nerfs it wont be that bad then see im a souls player and usually when the word nerf is thrown around the item in question becomes unusable when it used to be great you must forgive me being defensive about such things XD im mainly worried about carve, favor,spikes, and blast being ruined but ash will do what he must.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:28:50)

Carve might see an HP reduction. Depends on what Ash wants to do there, in truth it's likely no where near where people are thinking. Look at his current work and then think is what he has done thus far bad in any way? I mean look at pally and Death Knight. Two great examples of re-balanced stuff being turned from meh, into WOAH.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:31:56)

giving is easy taking is hard at least thats how id think.



Ash -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 8:55:21)

quote:

I agree with basically everything Lord Arkatares posted. Also saying that DmK has made me dislike playing through the Espina Rosa quests. Battles take waaay too long. It makes sense that it's that way, and I get why it's like that, due to the story of the place, but still. <.<

You mean sorta how long battles take for the rest of the game? Like I said, people don't use DoomKnight to play the game anymore, they get it to not HAVE to play the game. I never said that would change, it just needs to not make it so you can one shot a challenge boss like the Ultra Merged Akriloth tooth fragment boss, that's meant to take 10 turns even with DoomKnight. That's the point, not the fact that you can just buzz through a quest. Riftwalker can buzz through just as fast.

quote:

Will the armor/helm/cape/sword appearances change? I ask this because I hate how the helm looks, the color of the helm doesn't match the armor and it looks really plain compare to Seppy's helm. Also, I use NSoD with other classes and the way a few of the classes hold it seem wrong. For example, while standing still, Cryptic holds NSoD like a dagger, which of course look really wrong. Any chance that there will be an option for Staff, Dagger, or Scythe, like a shop to trade one for another?

No to new animations. I can honestly just recolor the helm if it's that much of an issue. I would rather not try and fiddle with making merges especially with how the game tracks its upgrades. Making them merges may mess with that in ways I don't want to think about.

quote:

if the DmK class isn't supposed to be OP (I honestly don't care either way, just everything said on the forums infecting my view on it) are you still going to make it one of the more powerful tier 3 classes? And will Avatar of Time be as (or even more) powerful than it? Because it doesn't make much sense for the avatar of time to be less powerful than a deathknight on steroids.

It'll stay tier 4 like I said before. Like I also said before I get that people bought the packages not for the DC's as was the intent but for the armor itself so I won't be changing the overall power level of the armor, just adjusting parts that are well beyond anything it should have. The AoT won't be as strong mainly because lore doesn't factor into a special offer class that's counted as a DC class which are non cannon.

quote:

im mainly worried about carve, favor,spikes, and blast being ruined but ash will do what he must.

Without having done any math at all and only have a rough idea.

Carve wouldn't be locked to enemy HP, it would heal a flat (larger and fast cooldown since it's based on your health) amount so that you aren't either healing 35 HP or 35000 HP depending on what you're smacking in the face. Having a large heal that's consistent, combined with a reworked Revert that constantly keeps you closer to max health to let you actually use the other skills might let you actually...you know...smack things with stuff other than Carve while still not dying to anything that you're not supposed to have trouble with that DmK already gets through?

Favor is fine. You get 5 turns to deal as much damage as you can and then you die. If you actually need to use Favor in any sort of life and death struggle you're either meant to lose the fight anyway because it's storyline driven for you TO lose, or you're pushing the wrong buttons. (Not saying you are, that's just a general view of the skill itself)

Spikes is the only multi so it can have an effect tacked on with no issues. Since it's also only doing 100% scaled damage it's the same as a basic attack...like every other stun in the game after I revamped them...

Blast deals 100% total damage and then 45% damage each turn (provided all attacks hit). How exactly would that need changing? If anything I could adjust the DoT up a little but and make it 50% so you deal 250% over 5 turns instead because nice flat numbers are nice.

Can we not make me do napkin math anymore?

Seriously, just take a breather folks.



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 9:08:50)

@ Shadowdragon 666

Honestly, I couldn't care less for the DC's I got along with the class,
Truth be told I didn't even know it came with DC's until I'd already made
up my mind to buy the Class and saw that I was also buying DC's, that
I paid 64.95 for a Class in a 2D Browser game is because:

(1) I wanted Godlike power like Sepulchure had, If I'd wanted balance, then or now I would have Bought
one of the Tier 3 class's From Cysero's store, for much cheaper than 64.95, Fact is I Wanted THEN and NOW
a class that is so powerful it's downright game breaking and downright insane, I WANTED THEN and NOW, that
One hit Kill Boss Destroying super Power that Ash seem's to think needs Removal, a good majority of those
who bought the Doom Knight Class wanted that Power Too then and now, POWER, that BROKE the BALANCE!

(2) Back then I wanted to support the Dragon Fable Dev's because I liked the Game and the Dev's, it felt like a very;
welcome, come on in please, although between between what the Dev's did to serenity simply because we couldn't
meet their Kill quota on time, the fact that they don't seem to be concerned that they're hurting all the OP fan's who bought
the Doom Knight enough to even offer to find a way to make it up to them (Not saying they have to but it would be the
gentlemanly thing to do), and the fact that almost each time the Dev's reply to me they're either giving me the third degree
or the cold shoulder, (You Dev's can really give some harsh response;s you know[8|]) Dragon Fable just doesn't feel as Welcoming
as it used to, truth be told I'm starting to get the feeling I'm not welcome at all[&o] ...

PS: I'm not trying to be a jerk to the dev's here, and I'm not saying the Dev's are Jerks either, I just find them to be a little too
cold at times, I get that their job isn't easy but that's not my fault you know, or Yours, if had the resources I'd do what I could
to make their lives easier if I could...

@ASH I'd Probably have alot more faith in you if you were friendlier with your replies to me, It's hard to believe in someone,
when you feel like your getting the Death stare through the screen each time they give you a reply, Seriously I get nervous
just reading some of your replies, and I REALLY WANT to believe in you Ash also I don't generally GET nervous.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 9:27:26)

thanks for putting most of my worries to rest ash like i said im sensitive to the word nerf. that being said it looks like the moves i use wont be changed to much, but you couldn't have thought that setting off a bombshell like this wouldn't get people vocal XD again though looks like i dont have to worry in the end

I set off bombshells all the time. By now you'd think people would realize that the shells don't usually do anything but make people look around for a sec and then go, "oh...nevermind." ~Ash

true true i wont lie saying i didnt overreact bit haha the fact that you MAY give blast a boost make me excited for it now actually.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 12:30:55)

@Lord Arkatares Let me tell you something this is the most contact we had with the devs from the begining of the game. I know Ash is tough and well a little agressive in his feedback about opinions but he at least gives feedback and that is better then no feedback. Lets put it like this is better like it is now then it was before and take this from a someone who received his fair share of feedback from staff it is way better like this then not.
Lets wait and focus on other more closer changes.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 13:03:25)

First let me start by saying I don't own DoomKnight, but the way I read the way this discussion is going on, I'll give my few opinions:

1. I see this rebalancing a good thing in the long run. One-shot everything (even bosses made to be harder to beat) is not what Dragonfable is, if you want to do something like that you are better off playing other games that does give that feature.

quote:

I wanted Godlike power like Sepulchure had, If I'd wanted balance, then or now I would have Bought
one of the Tier 3 class's From Cysero's store, for much cheaper than 64.95, Fact is I Wanted THEN and NOW
a class that is so powerful it's downright game breaking and downright insane, I WANTED THEN and NOW, that
One hit Kill Boss Destroying super Power that Ash seem's to think needs Removal, a good majority of those
who bought the Doom Knight Class wanted that Power Too then and now, POWER, that BROKE the BALANCE!

2. The thing is, you are NOT Sepulchure, the class is NOT MEANT to turn you into Sepulchure, its their to give you a TASTE of how it slightly feels to be Sepulchure which it has done so in the past and will do so in the future after it is rebalanced. Sepulchure is Sepulchure, if you want to really be him then just keep repeating the quest that makes you play as him in Book 1

quote:

Back then I wanted to support the Dragon Fable Dev's because I liked the Game and the Dev's, it felt like a very;
welcome, come on in please, although between between what the Dev's did to serenity simply because we couldn't
meet their Kill quota on time, the fact that they don't seem to be concerned that they're hurting all the OP fan's who bought
the Doom Knight enough to even offer to find a way to make it up to them (Not saying they have to but it would be the
gentlemanly thing to do), and the fact that almost each time the Dev's reply to me they're either giving me the third degree
or the cold shoulder,

The reason you feel like you are getting the cold shoulder in this discussion is that you are forcing your own opinion without taking into consideration the opinion of the staff on the matter. As I read your previous posts you adamantly push for a way to retain the old DoomKnight wherein the flaws are already pointed out plain as day. You are also not putting in constructive or detailed and an acceptable reason on why we should retain the old DoomKnight. All I see in your posts are in the line of "don't change it, nuff said" you are completely disregarding the opinions of others an how to rebalance the class itself.



Oddball -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 15:00:05)

As someone who uses the class from time to time, I'd love to see it knocked down a few tiers.. But that's never going to happen.
Seriously, I doubt the class was ever supposed to be as strong as it is and I wish I was there for when it was first released. When the class wasn't just the "I Win" button.
RPG's are supposed to be balanced, sure there are items/classes/weapons/etc that are in a league of their own, but there's never too much of a gap between those types of items and the ones available to everyone.

That being said, I'm not saying that DmK needs that treatment, I'm not saying that it needs to be just a little bit more powerful than a tier 3 class. I'm saying that, as it stands, the class is far too strong and barely ever requires you to press more than 3/4 of its skills.

So I'd love to see what you do with the class once you have the time, Ash. I'm sure you'll do a fantastic job as always. [:)]



Melissa4Bella -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 15:29:51)

Ok, I can understand that some players are not fully comprehending what is being patiently explained to them in minute detail. But let me reiterate some of what has been explained.
1.) Nothing has happened yet.
2.) DoomKnight will not be nerfed to oblivion, rendering it obsolete.
3.) Numbers have not even been tinkered with yet, much less balanced/implemented/tested.
4.) No armor skill revamp has ever made said armor less than it was. In fact, it has improved each armor that has been revamped so far into a much more useful item than it used to be.
5.) If the armor gets rebalanced, it will slightly reduce some numbers while adding in some numbers in other skills. That is balance. Nothing will be taken away.
6.) In previous armor revamps, most of the the modifications aren't even noticeable during gameplay without a calculator and a spreadsheet.

That's it. This is nothing to be upset about or flailing around wildly over. Seriously. Just relax. The DF team will not be doing anything so drastic as to drive players away or preventing players from buying something that they want.
And while all that has been said over and over again, please take a moment to read over things again and then just let it sink in. There's nobody here within the DF team that wants to drive anybody away. That is not the goal, nor is it the result.

I'd like for the baseless accusations, attempts at arm-twisting and veiled insults to stop. Thank you!



Alm Nullamors -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 16:46:05)

Like I said earlier, horribly controversial class. Strong opinions at both ends.
I'd probably only use it for wars if I get it. I just prefer walling anything that moves with my Dragonlord.



Lord Arkatares -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 20:08:49)

@ Mystical Warrior

Okay, first off I DO NOT WANT TO BE SEPULCHURE, I Just Want To be
his Equal at least to some degree, we don't all dream of being the underdog forever
you know cut people

second off It's not the boss's That I'm really concerned about, it's the Random,
monster's/NPC's that decorate every Level, I regard those Cannonfodder as something
akin to the people ahead of you at the supermarket when you go shopping, generally
there are ALOT of people in front of you and the faster they're gone the Better,
Long wait's are just IRRITATING[:@]...

Thirdly, the First half my posts were me trying to reach a COMPROMISE with Ash
and all the Doom Knight's that support the rebalancing, first by suggesting two version's
then later by suggesting a weak artifact that you must slowly power it up a few levels repeatedly
with a merge shop until both it and the character reach Level 80 in order to gain the same caliber
of OPing with the new balanced build that you got with the old OP build even going so far as to suggest we might
be willing to wait as much as 2 years or more for such an Artifact, the second Half have mostly
been (75%Explaining-25%Mindless Babbling) about explaining that player's like me
aren't upset because we don't understand that ash isn't Nerfing the class, but
rather that we draw joy from something different than they do, balance isn't key
in our eye's, eliminating our opponent's as quickly and efficiently as possible is,
were thing's different and there was another Tier 4 OP Class, most of us probably wouldn't care
about Doom Knight being rebalanced as much since we'd have something else to use instead,
but thing's as they are; we OP Lover's being every bit the supporter's (Financially and spiritually)
and as stated previously possessing different interests than the rebalance Supporter's deserve a our
one silly little OP DoomKnight Class in a sea of Balanced classes as much as the Rebalance supporter's
deserve their rebalanced DoomKnight Class,

Honestly, would It be SO HARD to come to a Compromise? would it REALLY?
It would undoubtedly take longer to try to please both parties wiuldn't it be worth it at the end, I realize,
that some of you just don't GET us, but honestly do you really need too? OP makes us happy, just as
challenge and balance make you happy, Can't we both be happy?



Brasca123 -> RE: =DF= DoomKnight Discussion Thread (4/28/2015 20:19:18)

@lord arkantares. dude you need to chill a bit, if your problem is the creeps, than don't worry, i'm pretty sure you'll be able to OHKO any creep in your way with properly balanced DmK it's still going to be a tier 4 you know... and about the need of feeling OP you have

quote:



quote:

it's not taken into account when making releases



And that doesn't send up a warning flag for you? Not in any small tiny fashion does a little nudge go "hmmm...maybe something they have to ignore is bad." When I have to second guess every time someone asks for me to build a challenge area because I know they're just going to put on DoomKnight, walk into it, beat it easily and either complain about it being easy OR just do it to get the stronger reward at the end without earning it. I'm sorry but ignoring an item in the game because you paid money for it is the wrong answer.



that was taken from this same chat, in fact, that was ash replying to something i said, an item that's is so gamebreaking that it needs to be ignored when planning a release just is not right, even if it requires getting an artifact and all that, it'll still be gamebreaking once you get it and is at the level cap, also, there are a lot more classes that could get and artifact that would make a far better use out of it than DmK, let's face it, DmK does NOT need an artifact.

it'll still be the best armor in the game, so don't worry too much



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