RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 22:02:47)

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I would also like to mention Greater Heal is a LEGEND ONLY card meaning it is a little stronger then other cards of its kind. In time I'm sure there will be other Legend only cards that will be slightly stronger then other cards of the same type.


Oh dear, bold caps again. The problem with holding LEGEND ONLY cards to a higher standard is that they only exist on characters of two elements (Light and Shadow, with the cards being Greater Heal, Bash, Thrash, and Shadowfire), and therefore would benefit only those Legends when elements of every other element don't have access to exclusive cards.

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If they were to be the same, then would you also want Counter Attack and Iron Hide to be the same as Shields? They all prevent damage just like shields.


Please yes.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 22:23:58)

@TFP : Bash and Thrash are not Legend Only, they are Dragon Only, and Greater Heal is only slightly better then the other healing cards, and if you think about it Shadow Fire is a Fireball for Shadow Legends, yes its the strongest card for Shadow but it is not stronger then any other 1k damage for 8 mana. Also yes not every element has a legend exclusive card, but not all elements have 3+ legendary characters yet.

To you wanting all defensive cards to be the same....... [sarcasm]sure, and in the same process we can make all the attack cards the same[/sarcasm]



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 22:44:39)

No Apprentice, Veteran, or Master can possibly access Bash or Thrash, that makes them Legend only. Black Dragon is a Legend. Or did you mean that there'd be other "dragons" that aren't necessarily Legends with Bash and Thrash?

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Also yes not every element has a legend exclusive card, but not all elements have 3+ legendary characters yet.


Does that mean that they'll get legend exclusive cards once they do have 3+ legends? Because this isn't true for Neutral... And about that, why does Light have so as many Legends as Ice, Fire, Lightning, Earth, and Water combined? It has six! Queen Aegea, FC, Father Time, Templar, Seraphim, and Sentry Lord. Now that's a balance issue.

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and if you think about it Shadow Fire is a Fireball for Shadow Legends, yes its the strongest card for Shadow but it is not stronger then any other 1k damage for 8 mana.


No, CC Poison is the strongest card for Shadow. 210% energy efficiency for 1260 damage > 125% for 1000. I was just saying that if Legendary-only cards were held to a higher standard it would be silly when only Light and Shadow characters have them.



daichi -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 22:48:37)

Umm, slightly off cards. but

I would like to see the AI in nightmare dungeon buffed.

If that's even possible.

it seems that you can go to the world map, and the random encounters are just as good as the nightmare dungeons creatures.

so maybe buff the overall skill of the dungeons bots?



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 23:22:51)

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No Apprentice, Veteran, or Master can possibly access Bash or Thrash, that makes them Legend only. Black Dragon is a Legend. Or did you mean that there'd be other "dragons" that aren't necessarily Legends with Bash and Thrash?

Claiming that the current characters are the only ones that have these cards and that nothing in the future will get them is quite short sighted. You never know there could be an entire tree that are all dragons with Bash and Thrash from apprentice to legend. So claiming that Bash and Thrash are legend only (when clearly no other shadow legend has these cards other then the Black DRAGON) is silly and not even a balance issue.

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Does that mean that they'll get legend exclusive cards once they do have 3+ legends? Because this isn't true for Neutral... And about that, why does Light have so as many Legends as Ice, Fire, Lightning, Earth, and Water combined? It has six! Queen Aegea, FC, Father Time, Templar, Seraphim, and Sentry Lord. Now that's a balance issue.

This is also not a balance issue, and more of a selection issue. There are 59 shadow characters, that is an imbalance, never mind the legends, just the number of shadow characters is staggering compared to the other elements.

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No, CC Poison is the strongest card for Shadow. 210% energy efficiency for 1260 damage > 125% for 1000. I was just saying that if Legendary-only cards were held to a higher standard it would be silly when only Light and Shadow characters have them.

First you need to also take into account the amount of turns the damage is being dealt, that also factors into how strong a card is. With poison you have to wait 4 turns and in the mean time someone can shield and prevent that damage, while a single high damage card has less of a chance of being negated or prevented while it is being used.



Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 23:23:17)

@TFP
quote:

No Apprentice, Veteran, or Master can possibly access Bash or Thrash, that makes them Legend only. Black Dragon is a Legend. Or did you mean that there'd be other "dragons" that aren't necessarily Legends with Bash and Thrash?

As of right now, since Black Dragon is our only fully grown dragon possession available, we don't know if we can make that assumption. So since we can't compare it to another, that's sort of out of the question for now.

quote:

Does that mean that they'll get legend exclusive cards once they do have 3+ legends? Because this isn't true for Neutral... And about that, why does Light have so as many Legends as Ice, Fire, Lightning, Earth, and Water combined? It has six! Queen Aegea, FC, Father Time, Templar, Seraphim, and Sentry Lord. Now that's a balance issue.

As time progresses, there will be more legends for more elements. As for cards, those will exist as well with time. Just like with AP getting a few extra cards, older legends getting new legend cards is not out of the question.

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No, CC Poison is the strongest card for Shadow. 210% energy efficiency for 1260 damage > 125% for 1000. I was just saying that if Legendary-only cards were held to a higher standard it would be silly when only Light and Shadow characters have them.

I don't know. A good shield or two can completely put poison at bay for awhile.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 23:28:59)

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First you need to also take into account the amount of turns the damage is being dealt, that also factors into how strong a card is. With poison you have to wait 4 turns and in the mean time someone can shield and prevent that damage, while a single high damage card has less of a chance of being negated or prevented while it is being used.


Which, as you evidently know having made that observation, is because Iron Hide does its job FAR better than Counter Attack/Void Reflection.

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This is also not a balance issue, and more of a selection issue. There are 59 shadow characters, that is an imbalance, never mind the legends, just the number of shadow characters is staggering compared to the other elements.


A "selection issue" is a "balance issue", otherwise there'd be no issue with how the powers that be went about their selection. Someone selected the option of a 2 card cost for Fresh Start and a 1 card cost for Neutralize, and it's an issue because of the imbalance.

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Claiming that the current characters are the only ones that have these cards and that nothing in the future will get them is quite short sighted. You never know there could be an entire tree that are all dragons with Bash and Thrash from apprentice to legend. So claiming that Bash and Thrash are legend only (when clearly no other shadow legend has these cards other then the Black DRAGON) is silly and not even a balance issue.


So that's possible but a non-dragon character with Thrash/Bash isn't?

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As time progresses, there will be more legends for more elements. As for cards, those will exist as well with time. Just like with AP getting a few extra cards, older legends getting new legend cards is not out of the question.


The "as time progresses" argument is all well and good when we know what the devs are going to do, but since we don't it's not going to do any harm to discuss what they should do.



Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 23:45:58)

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Which, as you evidently know having made that observation, is because Iron Hide does its job FAR better than Counter Attack/Void Reflection.

2 shield cards can really take away a lot of poison's DoT, rendering it harmless most of the time if the poison is used for a stall for energy.

quote:

A "selection issue" is a "balance issue", otherwise there'd be no issue with how the powers that be went about their selection. Someone selected the option of a 2 card cost for Fresh Start and a 1 card cost for Neutralize, and it's an issue because of the imbalance.

So it's the cost of Fresh Start from Neutralize is bothering you here?

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So that's possible but a non-dragon character with Thrash/Bash isn't?

As I said earlier, since Black Dragon is our only full grown dragon character with such cards, we can't compare them to others who could have them or couldn't.

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The "as time progresses" argument is all well and good when we know what the devs are going to do, but since we don't it's not going to do any harm to discuss what they should do.

You must trust the devs when it comes to things like Balance. Those are key issues and will always be considered to see if older legendaries or any other characters should/need a boost ^.^



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/24/2013 23:47:23)

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because Iron Hide does its job FAR better than Counter Attack/Void Reflection.

Or you could just use a Shield or 3 and negate all of Poison's damage while Iron Hide can only negate half of poison's damage.

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Someone selected the option of a 2 card cost for Fresh Start and a 1 card cost for Neutralize, and it's an issue because of the imbalance.

Water, Neutral, and Energy, the only 3 elements with mana boosting cards.
Energize, requires you discard 1 attack card, most of Energy's cards rely on attack cards.
Neutralize, requires you to discard any card, Neutral decks tend to be mana heavy having high costing cards.
Fresh Start, requires you discard any 2 cards, Water decks tend to lean towards using heals to stall and have an average mana consumption.
The cost of these special cards are balanced when used with their respective elemental decks.

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So that's possible but a non-dragon character with Thrash/Bash isn't?

Yes, Thrash and Bash are for full grown dragons (Drakes are not full grown) regardless of the character's ranking.

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The "as time progresses" argument is all well and good when we know what the devs are going to do, but since we don't it's not going to do any harm to discuss what they should do.

You can not predict what the devs will and will not do, but in terms of balance that is under a microscope and i am positive the devs have a better handle on it then you think.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:02:11)

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So it's the cost of Fresh Start from Neutralize is bothering you here?


Yeah.

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2 shield cards can really take away a lot of poison's DoT, rendering it harmless most of the time if the poison is used for a stall for energy.


Shields aren't as efficient as Poison and Poisons can be stacked too.

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As I said earlier, since Black Dragon is our only full grown dragon character with such cards, we can't compare them to others who could have them or couldn't.


I agree, there has yet to be any pattern in the game to suggest that Bash and Thrash would be exclusive to "a full grown dragon character". I am, however, not wrong in saying that they are currently Legendary-exclusive cards as they are only found on a Legend.



ND Mallet -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:10:26)

I would like to point out that you can't balance cards based on similar ones from other elements. Why not? Because those cards synergize with their element differently than the other card. It's why Crush is free compared to Ice or Snow Orb. Sure, Earth can stack defenses but they can't do it as well as Ice can nor as reliably. They focus mainly on damage and then on defense. Even Earth Fairy can't keep 2k shield for very long.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:15:16)

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I am, however, not wrong in saying that they are currently Legendary-exclusive cards as they are only found on a Legend.

You could also just say they are Black Dragon exclusive cards, but claiming they are Legend only when multiple legend characters are around and not a single one of them has Bash or Thrash, yet Greater Heal and Shadow Fire ARE on multiple Legendary characters.

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Shields aren't as efficient as Poison and Poisons can be stacked too.

Shields can be stacked as well what is your point here, that poison needs to be nerfed?



Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:15:27)

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Yeah.

Well as Sage gave a very nice explanation here about this.

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"Water, Neutral, and Energy, the only 3 elements with mana boosting cards.

Energize, requires you discard 1 attack card, most of Energy's cards rely on attack cards.

Neutralize, requires you to discard any card, Neutral decks tend to be mana heavy having high costing cards.

Fresh Start, requires you discard any 2 cards, Water decks tend to lean towards using heals to stall and have an average mana consumption.

The cost of these special cards are balanced when used with their respective elemental decks. "


Each element works differently. Each has their own balance.

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Shields aren't as efficient as Poison and Poisons can be stacked too.

To an offensive player, poisons are great. But so can defensive means. (For example, I could use iron Hide while I build up charges for more shields that can be used after Iron Hide's effect is over). It's all about a person's playstyle.
quote:

I agree, there has yet to be any pattern in the game to suggest that Bash and Thrash would be exclusive to "a full grown dragon character". I am, however, not wrong in saying that they are currently Legendary-exclusive cards as they are only found on a Legend.

Right now, you could say that. It's based on what you're seeing and I wouldn't think any differently of you for thinking such because of such observation. But we will have to see what the future could possibly hold, won't we? ^.^



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:25:38)

quote:


"Water, Neutral, and Energy, the only 3 elements with mana boosting cards.

Energize, requires you discard 1 attack card, most of Energy's cards rely on attack cards.

Neutralize, requires you to discard any card, Neutral decks tend to be mana heavy having high costing cards.

Fresh Start, requires you discard any 2 cards, Water decks tend to lean towards using heals to stall and have an average mana consumption.

The cost of these special cards are balanced when used with their respective elemental decks. "


"Thematic" does NOT mean "balanced". If Water has an "average mana consumption" as opposed to "high costing cards", then doesn't the +10 energy do less for Water than energy in the first place? So then why is it that Fresh Start has double the cost of Neutralize when Neutral is better at converting energy anyway?

I only brought up Bash and Thrash along with Shadow Fire and Greater Heal to point out that only two elements currently have cards that are exclusive to Legendary characters.




TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:38:07)

@TFP : It is because Water does not always NEED the mana boost you do not always have to use it, but it is an extra boost to use along side high costing cards like Power Flow to get some or all of your mana back after using it and because of that it re-balances the deck to being an average mana consumption deck instead of an average > high deck.

As for the Legend only cards, once you have more of them to compare to, trying to balance them is useless as there is nothing to use as a base, and if you think about it the yare not all that much stronger then the current cards available.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 0:50:31)

"They don't have to use it" is not an excuse for Fresh Start being useless. Water already has less use for a mana boost than any other element since Power Flow isn't even as efficient as a 500-attack and all their other cards have low mana costs. Cost and demand are supposed to correlate. Neutral has a higher demand for a mana boost, yet it has a lower cost. Doesn't make sense.

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Shields can be stacked as well what is your point here, that poison needs to be nerfed?


Yes, a few DoTs should be nerfed and Iron Hide should be adjusted. DoTs' insane energy efficiency is not justified by one very specific card being able to obliterate them. Specifically, Shatter to 6 energy, Poison to 7, Corruption to 12, and Iron Hide to be refitted as a normal but strong defensive card such as Ice Wall and Stone Wall with Counter Attack and Void Reflection being made to work on DoTs would be welcome adjustments that would improve the game. Incinerate to 3 energy and Fresh Start to 1 discard would also help.



ND Mallet -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 1:00:27)

@finnish What would happen if Neutral had to spend more to get energy back? They would be worse off and it would be nerfing them. They have a lot of high energy cost cards so they have to get an easier way to get energy back or they perform worse than the other elements. Supply and demand is for economics, not card games.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 1:01:54)

@TFP : You have proven my point about Fresh Start and Neutralize......
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Fresh Start has double the cost of Neutralize when Neutral is better at converting energy

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Neutral has a higher demand for a mana boost, yet it has a lower cost.


As for DoTs you seem to keep omitting the turns it takes for the full damage to be dealt, that is what makes them cost less and able to deal more damage. Also think about it for a second, if you made counter/reflect work against DoTs that would make them over powered, letting them block everything would turn them into Iron Hide that can also deal damage. Making Iron Hide into a normal shield would also defeat the purpose of the card completely. It is a temporary defense boost that absorbs up to 1k damage for 2 turns, you can STILL damage a person using Iron Hide if you can deal more then 1k damage in a single turn.

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Incinerate to 3 energy and Fresh Start to 1 discard would also help.

Incinerate is a combination of Might and Empower and as such it has the cost of both added together. Fresh Start is balanced already.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 1:07:11)

Mana/energy is its own economy within the context of a card game. Neutral's happens to work much better than water's at the moment and buffing Fresh Start to only require 1 discard is a good start towards fixing water's.

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@TFP : You have proven my point about Fresh Start and Neutralize......


Not unless your point is Neutral's perpetual surpremacy over water or something. I'm just trying to see them better balanced.

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Incinerate is a combination of Might and Empower and as such it has the cost of both added together.


Might and Empower would use up 3 cards, themselves plus the discard. Incinerate uses 2, itself and the discard.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 1:15:37)

@TFP : Neutral decks require more mana then Water, and as such Water requires something extra to regain mana. If Neutralize required you to discard 2 cards you would think that is unbalanced compared to Water because water decks generally have a lower mana cost compared to Neutral decks.

Claiming Water needs an easier way to gain mana just because Neutralize only requires 1 card means you have not really spent a lot of time using a water deck. Using your supply and demand concept, Water having less of a demand = higher cost for the supply, Neutral having a higher demand = lower cost for the supply.

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Might and Empower would use up 3 cards, themselves plus the discard. Incinerate uses 2, itself and the discard.

That is what makes it different then using those 2 cards separately.

Post edited to remove unnecessary content. ~Therril Oreb

@TFP : It is quite simple Water needs less mana boosts then Neutral so it costs more to use them, while Neutral needs more mana boosts so it costs less. Where the balance comes from is the fact that both decks are not the same. If Water decks had a higher mana cost then yes the cost for Fresh Start would be lowered, but as it stands right now lowering the cost for Fresh Start would give it a bigger advantage.

Letting Fresh Start only cost 1 card would let someone at 14 mana play 3 HoTs + Fresh Start, draw then play another 3-4 HoTs all within 5 turns from the start of a match. You cant say that would not make it stronger then it is now.

Posts merged to avoid double posting. ~Therril Oreb



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 1:52:46)

@Sage
Of course shields and heals are different things, I'm not saying they aren't. What I'm saying is that unblockable attacks usually end up being just as effective as normal ones, i.e. just for damage, since you usually have to break through shields before killing someone unless they're nearly dead. In that way, putting up shields is like adding health, and it's more energy efficient than every heal but Greater Heal.



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 4:08:36)

@TFP
You are grasping the short end of the straws and while I do respect your opinions on the balance changes, you are grasping the real short ends. Take a real good look at the cards Water has and compare it to Neutral. Reason why Fresh Start requires 2 is because of Water's energy efficiency. Neutral's Neutralize is to help with supporting the high costs of cards. You want all the elements to be balanced with one another, but it is impossible to create that or you would risk ending up with nerfing and buffing cards over and over.

If OS nerfs Poison then you might as well nerf almost every special cards in the different elements.

@The Jop
Hence why piercing gets the extra energy cost. Shields stack and while I do see where you are coming from, shields are still in a different league than health. A knight has two armors, but the second armor is his life while the first can always be replaced. Also do not rely on shields as part of your HP. The main function of shields was to protect you from damage which is a universal knowledge in card games like Duel Masters, Cardfight, etc. (the monsters were the shields. Duel Masters had monsters whose abilities were similar to the OS Pierce cards.)



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 10:09:08)

Ok, so the issues are...everything?

Incinerate is a combiination of empower and might, hus it has both of the costs. It consumes on less card because fire is less energy efficient than its power cards counterparts.

Fresh start consumes 2 cards to give it a weakness like the other energy cards, neutralizes weakness is that neutral is generally very ost inefficient. Also, even if it has some very odd numbers that does not match waters overall deck, it will still give some free emergy you would not have had.

Poison is a DoT, thus has higher cost effiiency. The tradeoff is that the enemy can react to it. However, i do agree that CC poison damage should also be flat 1200 damage, seeing as its counterpart, corrupt, did not get any extra damage from CC.

Pierce cards cost moe than attack cards because they can ignore counter attacks and shields. However, they should be buffed to be ale to go through iron hide too.

Neutral is not cost effiient, so it gets 10 energy from energy card.
Water is cost efficient, so it gets on average 7-8 energy from energy card.

Heals blocks all kinds of damage, while shield does not, thus it is less cost efficient.

Did i miss Anything? Also, excuse spelling, written on phone.



Hakunin -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 11:31:24)

quote:

Neutral decks require more mana then Water, and as such Water requires something extra to regain mana. If Neutralize required you to discard 2 cards you would think that is unbalanced compared to Water because water decks generally have a lower mana cost compared to Neutral decks.

Claiming Water needs an easier way to gain mana just because Neutralize only requires 1 card means you have not really spent a lot of time using a water deck. Using your supply and demand concept, Water having less of a demand = higher cost for the supply, Neutral having a higher demand = lower cost for the supply.


The problem with Fresh start is, that if you play it out, you gain absolutely nothing, as the remaining cards' cost will be so low, the charges during the 2 turns (drawing new cards) plus the charges already at hand will leave you so many charges left, you can only profit 99% of the times from Fresh start a mere 1 or 2 charges, what is joke-quality.
And yes, I've played with water a fair amount of time.



TheSage -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 12:30:54)

@Hakunin : Try using Fresh Start on the same turn you use Power Flow or 2 other cards, the point is with Fresh Start you don't even need to charge fully at the start of a match and can get by with a 4mpt instead of charging to 5mpt (mana per turn)



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