RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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clintonian -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 21:20:50)

@sage because energize is just 1 attack card to discard and energy chars damage is mostly from storms so it doesn't hurt the char.Plus they have lots of attack boosting cards. I do agree with fresh start being 1 card discard cause most of the times you discard 2 good cards, well everytime for me [:D]



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 22:12:02)

If Water is to get some amazing Legendary card it probably shouldn't be a regen since they already have so many.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 22:20:16)

I kind wished that they didn't go crazy with the 500 pierce cards. Before, only Earth types had it and that made them unique but now almost all the elements have them. Although Shadows did get a nice touch up ;)



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 22:30:17)

Well you see with me when I use Fresh Start is I sacrifice the cards I know I won't use in 2 turns or more. Think about it you have 2 useless Refreshes in your hands and there is no benefit in just discarding it so the next best thing is to use Fresh Start. All I'm seeing is self-opinion on how Neutralize allows you to discard only one card when most of their deck costs way more than the total of Water together. I said before that if Fresh Start goes to discard one then the total balance of the deck will be thrown off once new cards for water are introduced. It's good that Water is getting this much attention, but I'm seeing boost suggestions to a card that is balanced to the deck.

Don't look at the card by itself which is the mistake I'm seeing with those that support the discard one effect. ND Mallet's statement:
quote:

My view is that cards are balanced first and foremost by how they synergize within their own element. Look at Crush and Snow Orb. They both turn shield into damage but one is completely free. Why? Because Ice can stack shields better than Earth can and they can do it more reliably. Their Freeze gives them an extra turn to stack shields compared to Petrify. You HAVE to balance cards within the same element first. Then you balance the entire element against other elements. You're not going to get very far in terms of diversity and fun if every element is the same as the other one.


Energize is useless once you draw all special type cards rendering the card itself useless.

Fresh Start and Neutralize allow you to discard any card for 10 energy. Stop looking at the card and look at the overall deck along with how you use it properly. I respect your opinions on this matter, but I'm getting this feeling that you are looking at something by itself and not as a whole.

Water will become up to par with the other elements if it gets more cards to play with, but at the moment we will not be seeing that for awhile. Fresh Start should not be touched until more cards are introduced to make assumptions for it to be buffed.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 22:43:48)

Well I am going to go ahead and say this. I have played with only two Water types. Alexis and Aqueous. I can recall playing with Alexis and Fresh Start wasn't even a problem for me. Want to know why? Because Alexis has a lot of useless cards as fodder. I have been playing with Aqueous a lot and her deck is filled with much more better cards. FS will not be doing her any good as most of the time you will be losing an important card. Alexis can afford fodder cards most of the time while Aqueous cannot. Therefore, FS is fairly balanced for a deck with a few mediocre cards to spare while it is mostly hindering the better builded character more often than not. For example, I find that creating a set up for a FS-PF combo goes much more smoothly for Alexis while for Aqueous it would have to give up an important card that could have been used later in the match. In conclusion, FS is subjective to the character making it not balanced for the type but is balanced for a deck that can afford to use plenty cards as fodder.

I think this is the best analysis that can be given to the FS dilemma.



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 22:55:52)

@J
What you say is somewhat true though I am the Sacrifice/Loser King for nothing. I've played Migo's character for awhile and I use FS in certain situations. You are not supposed to rely on FS, FS is only a means to gain quick energy. For me I do sacrifice needed cards, but with Aqueous's deck I can sacrifice any card as needed knowing full well of the consequences. Sacrifice Water Crash and one heal to get needed results. Unfortunately if you are encountering a minor problem with Aqueous then I must be using her right since I am able to use her to her full capabilities despite whether or not I use FS since her deck is good enough without it.

If need be I sacrifice Powerflow for all I care, but in the long run I use Powerflow and FS then on the next turn I draw and use what I have in hand.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:07:54)

@Mondez: See, the way you are using Aqueous' deck might be better than the way I use it. But, that is because I am trying to use all of Aqueous' cards to their full potential and FS seems to be bringing the output of this potential down. I know you aren't relying on FS but it is in the deck and unless CC can remove cards from decks, I want to know how well Aqueous can be played with it. The fact is, the PF combo is nice for the present time being, but that card which was discarded always bites back in the future. I guess I am going off topic now kinda, so I will leave it at this. Aqueous has no use for FS. [8D]

I would also like to finally say my claim in the matter: FS doesn't really need the buff currently. We need to see how Water decks evolve in the long run. If all future characters are anything like Aqueous, then it will need a buff. If they are more like the traditional Water types like Alexis, the card shouldn't be touched. FS all depends on the deck it runs in.



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:08:13)

@TFP
If you want Water characters to compete with Neutral then they need more cards to play with. It was stated again and again that Water are reliant on HP Regen and do mind I have defeated Neutral CC Characters in a duel before with Water. (It takes a long time, but it can be done efficiently)

I'm only making an exception towards FS because AGAIN Water does not have enough offensive power. You have to sacrifice more to compensate the cost efficiency of the element. I know you are capable of seeing the big picture, but the issue is that I'm still not seeing it due to how long this discussion has been going.

If we were to finish this truly then the input of a dev is needed and if it is the answer that I know I have been saying for the past page and a quarter then maybe the reasoning will stick.

If Water gets cards that have higher costs then maybe I'll rethink my reasoning, but the only card that is expensive for Water is Powerflow. At the moment Water can easily and I do mean easily can win matches at this stage against other CC characters with the right setup and the right strategy of energy conservation throughout the match.

Ugh... I'm done with this discussion.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:14:42)

quote:


You have to sacrifice more to compensate the cost efficiency of the element.


Not this again! Where are people getting that Water is a cost efficient element when their most cost efficient card is 515 Block?



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:19:17)

@TFP
It is true! Do you know how easily Water can heal compared to Light without Greater Heal or CC Penance? A lot more easier than using Heal! The specialization for Water is its cost efficient HP Regen which is part of the argument that you don't seem to factor in. Plus Water with shields plus HP Regen equals a whole lotta annoyance towards to the opponent because with that combination plus factor in the low energy of the regen can easily regain 40 - 60% of your total HP assuming that you know how to use Water correctly.



Jmagician -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:19:52)

@above2 quote: I have to agree with TFP. That statement is flawed because if Water is such a cost efficient element, why is a card like FS even in the deck. Surely they can save up for PF without the assistance of an energy booster?



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:24:14)

@J
PF was compensation towards the lack of offense that water had earlier in the phase, do you recall? Seriously? For good cost efficiency more cards must be sacrificed. Neutralize has one discard due to the following again: Dual Elements and Neutral has high costing cards!!!

Begeezus, I swear I hate repeating the same simple reason over and over.

Plus since Water has low costing healing cards which are considered mediocre, its energy booster card had to have a cost to compensate the low costs since you are adding 10+ energy to balance out the element.

*Edit
I'm done for today, I'm getting tired of explaining the same reason over and over which makes my head hurt.



The Finnish Phoenix -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:30:24)

quote:


It is true! Do you know how easily Water can heal compared to Light without Greater Heal or CC Penance? A lot more easier than using Heal!


._. But Light characters do have Greater Heal and CC Penance.

Light characters are basically Water characters done right, they consistently outperform Water and they don't even use a mana boost.

My Level 20 Light Fairy beats Aqueouses in the mid-teen levels (if I could find a higher one I'd test it). Granted, with CC's, but that's still pretty sad to think about when Aqueous is the best water character...



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/25/2013 23:34:26)

@TFP
When I get my Aqueous to level 20 then I can show you how well I can use Water to its full potential especially while using what you call a backward energy boost card. (So tired that I forget the name of the card)



Asuka -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 4:45:02)

You guys are being ridiculous now with Fresh Start. May I end this debate with Fresh Start?

Think about the element water for a second.
A lot of water cards have medium-low costs for cards and can generally be used pretty easily compared to other heavy energy elements such as Neutral.
The reason it cost two for Fresh Start in my own opinion is because Water can be a powerhouse if had only 1 discard.
Think about it. Water has mainly stall type moves, which are heals and shields.
If I suddenly had the power to discard just one card while causing all this damage with Power flow then using fresh start for more stalls, that'd be unfair a lot.

As I have said before, each element is unique to it's own. There's a reason for what is what.



Therril Oreb -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 4:51:37)

This is quite enough. Only two days ago we had to bring you all to your senses and again you start turning in a good discussion into a heated debate.
We asked everyone of you to keep this discussion as civil as possible. Yet this turned into a debate where you start beating each other.
This is uncalled for. If someone disagrees with you or you disagree with someone, you have to stay friendly. Point out facts but don't start with "you should..." or anything alike.

This is not a debate where you represent something and defend it at all cost. This is a discussion to see where the balance is and if anything needs to be changed. Wether you are correct or not matters not as much as well as the facts that are being brought. Objective facts and not subjective points.

Anyone here that takes part in this rude and uncivil debate will get PMed and warned as deemed appropriate. For any posts past this, if you cannot stay civil or keep this a discussion, then refer from posting at all.
You all have been warned. ~Therril Oreb



The Jop -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 7:53:25)

@Asuka
I doubt water characters would be powerhouses if fresh start required one discard. They're worse stalls than earth and ice characters since they have no stuns and because shields (which earth and ice characters can get 1000 of at a time and water characters can't) are more energy efficient than heals. They're not even specialized in heals since light characters are better at that. Very little would change if they had to discard one less card for fresh start. I understand that fresh start is made for water characters with cheaper cards in terms of energy, but I don't think they need a disability because they wouldn't be very powerful if fresh start only required one card.



daichi -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 8:36:12)

I would like the nightmare dungeon AI buffed some, if that's even possible.[:D]

since it seems the AI are on the same level as the other dungeons and maps.



megakyle777 -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 9:16:24)

(Megakyle777 looks at the warning above)

...I'm beginning to think suggesting this thread was a mistake.[>:]

Anyway, I suggest that Cat Reflex be made into a Unblockable card. Being able to hit a 600 unblockable damage over 2 turns before attacking may be a little OP, but as it is I find Cat Reflex UP and I'm sure a balance can be reached between the two extremes.



Mondez -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 9:30:11)

@mega
With the influx of powerhouse cards that Neutral has would make it OP. Cat Reflex is a DoT meant to give a little leeway towards Neutral to get extra damage plus cost efficient enough to spam. My Taro is pretty strong when I get a full set of energy plus I get extra damage when Cat Reflex is active plus helps lessen the total amount of shields that my opponent has active.



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/26/2013 9:41:05)

@mondez
The problem is that currently, cat reflex is a dot card that is less cost efficient than it's closest counterpart, a normal attack. The drawback of being a DoT should be anough fo it to be stronger than it curenty is. I would love to see it get its energy lowered by one as i would increase it's efficiency from 20% to 50%.



99th Dracopyre -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/30/2013 11:41:26)

Charged seems to be a tad bit overpowered.
It's basically a 2 Energy for 200 Damage Card with any other attack card which is not a problem, but the damage curve greatly changes with 2 attack cards. It doubles its efficiency, and that's not mentioning 3 or 4 attack cards.

Maybe raising the energy cost to 3.
That would reduce the power curve. Seeing as having Charged with one attack card makes it pretty weak, so it encourages Charged to be used with more attack cards, rather than one is to one that it can be now.

~Draco



necro rouge -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (7/30/2013 13:28:21)

@99th
Charged is Not OP at all. It is far too situational and will not be core to any deck ever. And max 8 damage for a perfect use is not that strong considering how rarely it will be useful. Energy has one of the highest special/total card ratios of the elements, and with half of those being based on attack cards, they are often not worth using with charged.



Hakunin -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (8/8/2013 14:02:08)

Cat Reflex for 4 charges?



BJEBLE -> RE: =OS= Balance Discussion Thread (8/8/2013 14:19:40)

@Hakunin I think Cat Reflex is fine, Power Strike should deal 9 damage instead.



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