RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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fablemaster615 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (8/20/2013 16:28:46)

@Lemonus: I believe it's referring to the pyrominicon. the book in your hand disappears, and the paper consumes you.



yaseen.t -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (10/1/2013 16:05:48)

I don't have DmK but I do have KAA, ET and Pyro and my favourite is, was, and always will be Pyro. It is my favourite armour in the game. I know ET and KAA beat it and DK dominates it but I love it!!![:D][;)][:D]



Kazuki_Kitsuki -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (10/1/2013 17:01:35)

I personally, as anyone can see by clicking the DF button, don't have the class, but what I've read makes it out to be a very nice, well rounded class. I wouldn't personally use it for my warrior, maybe my rogue. My Warrior is a Rift Walker/Doom Knight only, my mage is an Ascendant (used to be necro) and my Rogue is SoulWeaver/Cryptic.

But back to the Pyromancer... I agree that most of it should be fire locked, since it makes sense, but the magic lock is too much. As pointed out by that Rose mage, magic can be combined with physical attacks, so it would be understandable that we can reverse the process and use pure physical energy to produce magical effects. The reverse can be said for mages, as in how do they clearly use melee attacks for most classes, but deal magic damage?



yaseen.t -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (10/23/2013 15:02:49)

Look, I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't think that EnT or KAA is worthy of comparing. In a proper battle, EnT and KAA stands absolutely no chance against Pyro. Of course KAA does overpower almost any armor in the game and EnT has the best stun attack in the game that helps them give them the edge. But in any other aspect Pyro is way better. Yes, other armors could and can win but I don't care if I even had DMK(which I do not) my signature armor will always be Pyro



Leon Archlite -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (10/25/2013 14:32:20)

My favourite class ever !

Although I don't own it , but still I love how the armor looks.



HiddenDoom45 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (10/25/2013 22:15:47)

It's a great class even though it's lacking in brute strength it can heal both hp and mp or completely heal from a near death situation with the rebirth skill. Having it I find that it's a great well rounded class that can survive in almost any situation.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 3:43:23)

This class has nice healing and defense abilities, but its lack of strength puts it down below with GPS.



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 4:43:02)

...Huh? Depending how you go about things, you are literally unkillable. My only experience with Pyromancer was during the testing phase but that experience is enough for me to say that it is a very effective class. Yes, it has the weakest power among the DC classes. BUT it does its job properly by whittling down the enemy's HP while retaining your own for a long time, in which case it is very much not inferior than the current GPS, which is being revamped to be better soon. The thing is that the DC classes are more specialized classes and their specialization is usually much above-average and since Pyromancer's specialization is being defensive, it does its job fine enough to prove its worth as a DC class.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 5:21:26)

^Whilst I agree with the statement that it makes the par for being a DC class, I still do believe that Pyromancer should do a lot better offensively. Yes, one is unkillable if uses the class properly. The blinding skills and healing skills are nothing short of top notch. However, Pyromancer is a very DOT-oriented class. It has mediocre cooldowns. Most importantly, it needs a little more adjustment on the offensive side. Having played the game for 10 years, I find it no problem of mine to be able to tell where a class stands. As of now, it is second to last above GPS. This is not because Pyromancer is a bad class, it is because the other DC classes are much better.



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 5:48:58)

Even a DC class has to have some form of flaw otherwise even by DC standards it would be leaning towards being overpowered. With the defensive capabilities it has right now, giving much more offense would make it too powerful. I get that A) by normal expectations, fire is known to be raw destruction rather than being unkillable(Yet, phoenixes are very much a thing based more on the cycle of rebirth.) and B) it is odd to have a DC class not have a "good" offense(which pyromancer very much has bear in mind.), however that is more of a design choice from the staff themselves. KAA has the flaw of being the weakest on the defensive side and having gigantic mana costs(which many say to have more of an impact ever stats have been updated). By the logic of where having the least "flaws" means it is the "best", then Entrophy would be the best class out of the main three since it is the balanced specialization. Yet, due to the fact that players very much favor offense over defense, many said that KAA was the better class. In fact, did not many say they wanted more offense on even Entrophy? In which case... why give pyromancer more if Entrophy did not get that treatment? Which it is best said that it is because neither actually, in fact, needs it. Pyromancer certainly does not need have better offense. I honestly do believe it is equal in potential with Entrophy AND KAA. None are really so much better than the other.

It really is a case of preference with the main free right now. Pyromancer is for those who wants perhaps the best defensive class in the game. And does what it is made to do, be the best defensively. It is same for KAA if one disregards DMK, it is the best offensively. Same for Entrophy. Best balanced class with many tools. To reiterate, Pyromancer does not need better offense. It really does not. With the mechanics right now, giving it more offense would mean it would be rather overpowered for what it is and just not fit around what the class revolves around.





Silver -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 5:56:15)

^The fact that Pyromancer HAS such skills can make the class pretty formidable. Having a good combination of DoT attacks, defensive attacks (as in blinding and things like that) and healing moves can make it almost un-killable, as Caststarter said. Pyromancer excels in wearing down opponents. Although its offensive moves aren't that powerful, they're still useful enough to one-shot normal opponents and help wear down stronger ones. I feel that Pyromancer just isn't as good as other DC classes when it comes to offense and raw power, but that lack of power is made up for with its other amazing stall-like moves.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 8:24:51)

This discussion made me want to play this awesome class again.

@PusatShrade
quote:

It has mediocre cooldowns

if by mediocre you call them "bad" I disagree. They're completely fine for your needs. Not high but not low either. They're "ok".

@Caststarter
quote:

I honestly do believe it is equal in potential with Entrophy AND KAA. None are really so much better than the other.

Hold on right there buddy [:D]. While I agree about everything you said, calling pyro equal in power as KAA and Entropy is going too far (Cuz I guess you meant: "equal in potential" = equal in damage).


Pyromancer is the best DC class for low and maybe mid levels. The mana costs are rather low and the high DoT damage make you less dependant to crits (which are low % for low lvs). The sustain is antother argument in favor.
Because of it's defenses and DoT potential, pyro is a good beastmaster class too.

Pyromancer is good defensively. It's kinda stun reliant like technomancer but because all those stuns are multi-hit it's kinda easy to make them work.

About the offense: Well calling it low damage... It does about 120% weapon damage turn and can hold 3 DoT 100% of the time. That's about 270% damage/turn. That's a lot for a defensive class. And that damage skyrockets while under the effects of Malcifer.

If this class was ever subject to changes. There's only 1 thing I would change from it:

-Enkindle: This skill is almost useless. a 4 turns 25% boost. Considering an average 120% weapon damage -> 0+120*1,25*4=600%.
Without enkindle: 120*5=600%.
Enkindle numbers favor you if the damage skills are above the 120% (in average) and if you use it right before malcifer.

Still... I think this skill could have more duration or do a hit of 80% or 100%. Or even give you a 1 turn shield like guardian Vortex. Or just be deleted and put somehting different instead.


The other thing is locking most of the skills to fire element (the DoT's are fire locked already). It would suppose a noticeable increase in damage and maybe other minor profits but the biggest drawback is turning the class useless vs fire resistant enemies. This class has no "curse" like Icebound Revenant.

I'm slightly a bit more in favour than against about this.

Edit; You should definately use this class with the new patriot fury scythe. First it looks awesome for Pyro and next... Enjoy the blinds [:D].

Below: Yeppers! :D



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 8:36:18)

quote:

(Cuz I guess you meant: "equal in potential" = equal in damage).


...Umm, if that was what I meant, would it not, I do not know, kind of backfire my entire point in the first place? xP
No no. By potential, I literally just mean that. Potential. It has the same amount of potential in the sense that it can fulfill certain roles. Let us be honest, if one was to try and do a hard extreme boss with KAA, chances are they might not come out alive. Pyromancer, on the other hand, can do just that. BUT can it do any sort of grinding effectively? ...Not really considering animations and damage in the first place. KAA can do just that. See where I am going with this now after clearing it up?



Mr G W -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 8:41:46)

Pyromancer is one of the best classes for farming if you know how to use it.

For example, its critical skill does 15 hits. Use it with weapons that deal extra damage against certain creatures, like fallen ice dragon weapons.

Because the bonus damage is actually an override rather than a boost, instead of dealing 15 hits of 10% damage each with 100% critical chance (total 300%), you would do 15 hits of 140% (or whatever your weapon overrides) damage each with 100% critical chance (total 4200%!!!).



ergotth -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 15:49:50)

Design-wise, Tomix did it again, came up with something original and stunning, with beautiful animations he could pull off with the limitation of using only fire. Although, yea, using other elements is kinda weirtd, but Dragonfable is NOT a game to be element-locked. I would buy this class, but I'm saving my only 2000 DCs for ChaosWeaver ^^



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 15:55:09)

quote:

but Dragonfable is NOT a game to be element-locked.


Many, MANY of the classes in game have element locked skills and it works really well. You don't hear people complaining about KAA much. =P IBR is a great example of how element locked classes can work so well. I'm still a bit annoyed that Pyro was before Ash's DF time, honestly if Malcifer was changed to be similar to IBR's ice resist lower skill and the other skills were made fire locked it would probably be fine.

Honestly them not being allowed to tinker with DC classes without having to make some old copy available is still really silly. xD



ergotth -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 16:43:11)

yes, but no class is COMPLETELY element-locked, except for icebound, and it have it's own way to make it an advantage with the Curse skill. Since all skill from pyro use fire one way or another, it would end up 100% element-locked.

Yea, making copies of DC classes can be cumbersome in the future. I don't know how DF's code work, but I wonder if it would be possible to simpy make DC-classes able to switch their versions. Or some kind of free merge. Like, merge pyro to get pyro 2.0 and merge pyro 2.0 to get pyro back.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 16:53:30)

Well, I guess I'm going to have to make a video about this. I'm gonna see how Pyromancer, EnTropy, and another class fare out against a common opponent, in a way to test Pyromancer's ability to "destruct" the opponent. This discussion has really inspired me to do this.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 18:32:42)

quote:

Yea, making copies of DC classes can be cumbersome in the future. I don't know how DF's code work, but I wonder if it would be possible to simpy make DC-classes able to switch their versions. Or some kind of free merge. Like, merge pyro to get pyro 2.0 and merge pyro 2.0 to get pyro back.

It's a Database space issue, not a code issue. I can make as many versions of an armor as I want codewise. SPACE wise we have to make an armor entry in the Database and then link it to the code file. We don't like making tons of entries for the same armor if we don't have to and yes, Pyro 1 and Pyro 2 would count as the same armor. It's why I'm not happy about having to make a 3rd slot for GPS and a second slot for DoomKnight. Pyro is fine stat wise and won't be getting updates because of that.



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 20:10:10)

Here is the shocking video comparing EnTropy, Pyromancer, and KAA.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 20:22:56)

@Pusat: That was interesting. You played enTropy and Pyro very well, I assume you used the same stat build for each fight correct? It shows that you could have thrown even more END at the cost of some WIS for Pyro to make it even more bulky, you were in absolute control for that fight. You know the classes pretty well. With KAA while I doubt you could have brought that fight to an end, you did make a mistake or two. You got a wee bit reckless but KAA's massive mana costs dragged it down fast. Very good video though.

That should end a lot of complaining about Pyromancer anyway. xD



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 20:29:19)

@Shadows

Correct. I had the same stat build and the equipped items for each class. I was planning to full rebirth for Pyro, but I forgot I had a DOT on.






Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/5/2015 21:21:21)

@Pusat: *cough*YouhavePMsoffIcan'treply*cough*

Oh, Ash, are you going to give Pyromancer different icons when you have free time for it or something? Thought I saw you say that, I may be mistaken though.



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 3:30:35)

quote:

You played enTropy and Pyro very well

Objection!

@PusatShrade

Let's go by parts:
Entropy:
Aww those rotations man... using the stun and touch outside womb is what hurt me the most.
You would be amazed by the damage you can archieve with -> spit->infect->womb->touch->Being. Absolutely ridiculous. Like womb is a small shield but a huge damage amplifier that can be combined with touch,being, Needles and the trinket.
And maybe you could have used the heal sooner so it's out of cooldown sooner aswell but that's personal preference.
KAA
When I saw you using drain ->LMAO
So you use a darkness weapon to increase your damage output with Entropy but you don't use an Evil weapon to increase your damage output with KAA? That's unfair conditions.
Also missing the kathool skill... you must be unluckiest person in the world.
Pyromancer
When I saw you using enkindle I was like: Oh my I hope he's using later what I have in mind... *Uses Malcifer* yes! *uses the blind,crit,triflame* no no no!
While it might see that you got profit from the power boost, you actually lost lots of damage from the dot skills + the double dot damage temporal empower from malcifer.
And later using enkindle without malcifer... No please... if you've done it because of feeling pressured by the cooldowns then it's because you're not rotating them right.
And the damage reduction skill is prety much your last resort defense. So I feel it was wrong when u use it under a stun.
The main deal about pyro is sustaining the 3 dot's while using the rest of the defenses around you.

Oh and the same I said with entropy, you use a fire weapon to profit from malcifer but not an evil weapon for KAA? you hate krakens or what? [:D]

And those conclusions: "Bang I used pyro better than the other 2 classes so it's better than the other 2". Because it ended with higher hp doesn't mean it's better, have you checked how many turns each battle took you?
Cuz by that logic I can just pick necro destroy that without losing any hp and claim that a t2 class is better than the dc classes.

I might be too harsh with you. I really really appreciate your efforts. The thing is that without a proper setup regarding the strategy (offense+defense) you can't really tell which one is "better". In THAT situation (high damage output enemy).



PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 4:19:29)

@Crabpeople

Thanks for the review!

Firstly, my intention was not to fully optimize the classes to HP PK my opponent. No. I could have done that easily with all 3 of the classes. (I am aware of the deadly combos you have already mentioned.) All I tried was to use the skills in no particular order to show how naturally efficient each class is.

Secondly, I had limited time constraints whilst making this video, so you can go ahead and blame that on my slightly random usage of skills.

And thirdly, it is up to one's personal preference to decide whether somebody played an armor well or not. Just because you did not like the way I played, that doesn't mean I did not play them well. Everybody has their own opinions, and they should all be well-respected. Remember, you can change a lot of things, but you can not change the way somebody thinks by attempting to make your own opinion look like a fact.



P.S: Hard Mode increases blocking and dodging, so it shouldn't be that surprising that I missed the Kathool strike.



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