RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 6:03:16)

@PusatShrade
First I respect your and share your opinion about making a natural/random gameplay.

quote:

And thirdly, it is up to one's personal preference to decide whether somebody played an armor well or not. Just because you did not like the way I played, that doesn't mean I did not play them well. Everybody has their own opinions, and they should all be well-respected. Remember, you can change a lot of things, but you can not change the way somebody thinks by attempting to make your own opinion look like a fact.


It's true. I have NO RIGHT in telling you how have to use a class (same with everyone else). The thing that bothers me and justified my previous reply towards you is the ending part of the video. You'e doing a claim there, reaching a conclusion, shoots fired, whatever... [:D]
"As you can see, in terms of efficiency and precisness, Pyromancer is the winner here"
You were following a random strategy and pyromancer happened to be the winner. But what if I made the same video as you and because random stuff went into a different way KAA is the winner? I can't go ahead and call it better than the other 2 if it isn't with a optimal or almost optimal strategy that shows clearly the extend and limits of each class.

To summarise it all, I respect and approve your natural effiency concept but I disaprove the usage of it as claims to compare armors.

quote:

P.S: Hard Mode increases blocking and dodging, so it shouldn't be that surprising that I missed the Kathool strike

True. But what I meant there is that Kathool skill can't miss (like AoT cross). The thing that it missed it's because you rolled the number 1 of doom.




PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 6:27:53)

"As you can see, in terms of efficiency and precisness, Pyromancer is the winner here"

That "conclusion" or "claim" or whatever you would like to dub it as, was something I reached merely according to those particular battles. The statement is true for only and only those battles. In other battles, situations, etc, one armor or another can be superior to the other. I never said "Pyromancer is always better than KAA and EnTropy."

quote:

random stuff went into a different way KAA is the winner?


There is a much lower chance of KAA or EnTropy faring better against the monster that I went against in a natural fight. Trust me.


quote:

True. But what I meant there is that Kathool skill can't miss (like AoT cross). The thing that it missed it's because you rolled the number 1 of doom.


Well, according to Rolith, the upgraded hard mode can(and will) occasionally neutralize the chance of an absolute hit or a stun. It has happened to me numerous times with the impossible crawler where I couldn't get a stun or missed an 100+Bonus shot. Or maybe I really did roll the "number 1 of doom."




unknownaka -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 6:56:43)

I have the class but I don't use it[:D], like the haircuts that comes with it.




PusatShrade -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 7:11:16)

Pyromancer has some of the hottest haircuts in the game. (That was a bad pun. I hope I don't get PUNished.)




Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/6/2015 14:17:03)

quote:

Objection!


Hold it.

What exactly are you objecting to? My opinion? Opinion is not fact, it was how I called his playstyle with the classes. Clearly Pusat has an understanding of these classes, and it's clear he wasn't trying to finish these battles without taking damage or anything, that was obvious the second he used drain and some other of KAA's...well, more or less useless skills. (Drain should really be like 5% mana regain.) Like he said, he was just doing a natural fight, just more or less just using the skills as they came off cooldown, and yet still Pyro knocked the others out of the park with what he was demonstrating.

You're very fast to pull out numbers in any and all class debates, and yet not once have I seen you pull video or picture proof yet. :P You don't need to understand every single percentage of every class to play a class well. You don't need to have such an in depth level of numbers about classes to argue about these points, an example could be I recently beat the 'Impossible' Crawler with my base Warrior class. I could tell you the specifics on maybe...3 of the skills? I even did it another two times to make sure I didn't fluke it. XD

What I'm trying to say here is, don't belittle someone elses opinion just because you disagree with them, especially when it is personal preferences without any facts. It's uncool and makes you look like a wee bit of a tool. :P

And yeah, he played the classes well.

@Pusat: That was...painful. xD. I need a DF class pun compilation now!




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (7/7/2015 5:03:23)

@Shadows - But using skills randomly as they come off CD is not playing a class well; Pusat even said he was doing so to simulate a "natural" playstyle, so one that isn't really trying to be efficient. I mean, do you think you would've beaten the Crawler if you just used skills randomly with Warrior? (Well, okay, actually you might have since that guy's something of a joke right now...looking forward to Ash's revamp of him!)

You seem to be confusing having the numbers to back something up with having knowledge of a class; they're not one and the same, and you can have knowledge of what to use and when without knowing the numbers. Just as a random example, you don't have to know the hit/miss formula and all that's involved with it to know that you should blind an enemy to make him miss you, and doing so is still part of a good strategy. Using numbers is just a useful way to show the point you're trying to make.




BeautyJester -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 9:41:45)

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I don't want to turn this into a discussion thread (although I technically am), but Pyro's magma Bubble (shield) reflects damage, and that being the full amount. Yes, even if it's blocked/dodged/parried/defended against. That's where a ton of damage comes from, so the class' skills obviously had to be nerfed a bit. And trust me, being a person that constantly does inn challenges, I would say that the Pyro is the best DC class, no matter how much I adore the others. Actually, why are we even debating this here? It should be done on the All Classes Discussion Thread or on a separate comparison question (wow I sound like a hypocrite)...
Quote taken BluuHorseOfficial from a thread made on Q&A.

@BluuHorseOfficial How the hell did u notice that, i bring out Pyromancer time to time cause i enjoy the DoT and defensive gameplay that differs from my usual glass cannon riftwalker but sure miss the fact that it reflects damage even though on the forum the skill details didnt mention such effect. Think this was unintended?




Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 9:48:00)

Possibly, he took into account that the mage's shield skill reflects a portion of damage, so went through all the other classes to see if any of them shared the trait.




The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 9:52:15)

Pyro actually got several hidden updates an unknown time ago, such as reducing the multi to 1 CD as well as making the shield reflect damage, none of which are documented on the pedia because pyro got an indirect nerf with the double dot bugfix.




Rafiq von den Vielen -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 11:44:46)

I might have missed a thing here, but "double DoT bugfix"?




Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 12:16:46)

There was a bug with DoTs, where they dealt double damage to enemies if their resistance to that element was in the negatives, no matter how low in the negatives it was, instead of properly scaling to the resistance like normal attacks(for example, an Energy DoT that normally dealt 30-40 damage per turn would deal 60-80 if the opponent's Energy resist was anywhere from -1 to -99, and 90-120 if their resist was -100, which is where it should have been dealing 60-80).

Due to this, Pyromancer was more offensively powerful than it was supposed to be, since malcifer puts a -25 fire debuff on the enemy, and it has 3 DoTs that each deal 50% weapon damage per turn(for a total of 150% weapon damage each turn if they're all up), meaning if you had malcifer up and all 3 DoTs, you were dealing 300% weapon damage per turn in DoTs alone on any enemy who didn't have 25 or more fire resistence naturally. And pyromancer is a defensive class. Most offensive classes don't even have that level of damage upkeep(only two I can think of really are Kathool Adept and DoomKnight, and that's only because their damage scales with your level).




Rafiq von den Vielen -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 12:25:37)

^Thanks. I wasn't actually aware that got fixed. Still my favorite class on my defensive build. [8D]




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 12:25:53)

Actually, I found that while trying out Dragonoid for the First Time—I noticed that when the (accidentally) overclocked Dragonoid blasted me, it took a buttload of damage, too. BTW, yes, Pyro has a ton of hidden abilities—it’s the only class that heals you for weapon damage (with Warmth, the second Heal skill), it’s the only class where the Multi Skill is the most powerful (barring The Phoenix, but without its full crit, it would be around the same and it’s the only class where its Element Debuffing Skill supplies it a PowerBoost (Malcifer (and it has a cool name too :p love Calcifer) which gives it a 25% PowerBoost). I actually didn’t know that the mage does it too, I thought Pyro was the only one :p

I still think that Malcifer should Debuff like the IBR’s curse, however, with Enkindle and Malcifer together you effectively have a +50% PowerBoost and +25% Damage from the -25 Fire.




Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/12/2018 13:13:00)

@BluuHorseOfficial

Malcifer actually heals for 100% of weapon damage as well.

quote:

I actually didn’t know that the mage does it too, I thought Pyro was the only one :p


Yeah, mage's shield deals full damage the first time an enemy attack gets through, then 50% on the second attack, the 25% etc.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/13/2018 1:42:07)

Yeah, I know about Malcifer’s healing abilities too. This has to be one of the main reasons for Pyro to be a great class. While other classes focus on crit to do damage, this one focuses of using crit to literally only break through defenses just to kill with DoTs.

Besides, Triflame and Lava Fountail are really good, Triflame doing great damage too, and stunning for 1 turn with a 5 turn cooldown. However, I think Blaze Blue and Fire Chains need a Buff, they’re kinda weak, especially compared to enTropy’s Rot, but also stronger than DeathKnight’s Soul Reap, I beleive.

I think mage’s shield has a 2 turn effect only though...




dragon_master -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/22/2018 17:10:34)

Okay I will point out the main reasons I got baited into buying Pyro:
First of all the healing. Yes it heals alot,and it can do so every few turns and it's good at it.
Then,just the fact it has alot of DoTs going for it (use ShadowFire Axe for an extra DoT each time you use your DoT skills).
And then,the 2 Stun skills.

But guess what? That's everything it has to offer;it's damage is very weak for an element-locked class,and, more importantly, a class of tier 3.
You can use DragonLord for the same healing (except full heal),plus two Artifacts for buffing it,whe still being able to deal alot of damage.

I'm sorry if I sound too negative,but I personally didn't enjoy this armor. Of course,there will always be a bunch of people that enjoy playing def,unlike me. But I don't get it. Why just not wreck the enemy sooner as possible? The faster you kill them,the less problems you have in the quest.

Certain Inn bosses would be impossible to beat,solely for the reason, that is Pyro's lack of damage output.

That's just why I have preffered to use AExosuit,or IBR.




Shadow X Ascendant -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/22/2018 17:17:46)

^AT least you unlocked The Fire Barber Shop




Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/22/2018 18:14:01)

@dragon_master

quote:

it's damage is very weak for an element-locked class,and, more importantly, a class of tier 3.


It's not element-locked, though. Literally the only things on Pyromancer that are element-locked are the DoTs. That's it. Not even the skills that apply the DoTs are element locked, just the DoTs themselves. As for damage, it's pretty similar to Dragonlord in the amount of overall damage it can do. Except that Dragonlord is element locked on 4 of its skills, with no way to circumvent that issue, unlike Pyromancer, who can actually make its DoTs usefull with Malcifer.

quote:

plus two Artifacts for buffing it,whe still being able to deal alot of damage.


You really shouldn't consider Artifacts when comparing two different classes, unless both classes have one. As soon as Pyromancer gets an artifact, sure, your "dragonlord's rage/patience" argument can hold some water, but until then, they really aren't a factor in whether or not Pyromancer is good in comparison to DragonLord.

quote:

Why just not wreck the enemy sooner as possible? The faster you kill them,the less problems you have in the quest.


Except for the fact that classes like Pyromancer actually have less problems the longer a fight goes on. Especially when you can end most fights with near or at max HP and MP, meaning you can save potions for boss monsters at the end of quests. Killing quickly is great, but can also lead to issues of not really getting time to recover mana in the fight, so having to waste potions, or backtrack to a healing pad, if there even is one in the quest.

quote:

Certain Inn bosses would be impossible to beat,solely for the reason, that is Pyro's lack of damage output.


I'm sorry, but when exactly did "certain Inn Fights" become a benchmark for whether or not a class is good, especially when Inn Fights by their nature require you to switch around classes and strategies to find the optimal one? And heck, I could counter that by saying that certain Inn Fights are made easier by the fact that Pyromancer is effectively immortal when played right.




BeautyJester -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/22/2018 21:57:08)

LMAO. Joke aside, i personally think you have your own valid reasons to dislike Pyromancer and it isnt catered to your want/need. But its your actively trying to advice others that has question on DC armors with scenarios and interpretation that makes Pyromancer looks like total trap buy (For example, your "buying it, selling it over and over again without having any regret").

quote:

I'm sorry if I sound too negative,but I personally didn't enjoy this armor. Of course,there will always be a bunch of people that enjoy playing def,unlike me. But I don't get it. Why just not wreck the enemy sooner as possible?


Exactly, so your advice to the others should be its a fire theme, defensive, slow pace and unique DoT based class that isnt suitable in a certain quests and scenarios.

quote:

The faster you kill them,the less problems you have in the quest


Erm, not wrong but not universally right either.




Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/22/2018 22:58:33)

I don't think discussion like this is very productive. Arguing about opinions is never a good thing, as 2 perfectly reasonable people can have the same information and still reach differing conclusions. For example: I personally don't use pyromancer because I enjoy a more offensive play style, but that does not mean pyromancer is an objectively good class as all tier 3 DC armors tend to be.

Greyor and dragon_master:
Neither one of you are willing to change your opinion and you should not have to. They are both valid. So lets agree to disagree and move onto more productive subjects.




dragon_master -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/23/2018 1:13:27)

@Greyor Okay I respect your opinion.
@beauty and yours too.

spoiler:

Doesn't necessarily mean I'll just stop hating this particular armor in secret. [:D]


We should get an armor that resembles an Ice Mage (aka Cryomancer),because Ice is that cool. An armor that is the counterpart of this,of sorts.
spoiler:

no,seriously,DF team,make it happen




Greyor_42 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/23/2018 1:39:18)

@dragon_master

quote:

Okay I respect your opinion.


That's really all I ask. I'm not trying to make you not dislike pyromancer, I just wanted you to.... understand it better, I guess you would say. And understand why other people would like it.


quote:

We should get an armor that resembles an Ice Mage (aka Cryomancer),because Ice is that cool.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Heck, the only reason I use IBR is because there isn't a Cryomancer class.




Starflame13 -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/23/2018 13:37:49)

I have had to delete/edit multiple posts to remove cases of flaming. Please keep all discussion civil and respectful to all parties. If you are unsure what constitutes as flaming, please read the =AE= Comprehensive Forum Rules.




BluuHorseOfficial -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (4/24/2018 8:13:25)

My apology:

I am thoroughly and sincerely sorry for my actions of flaming or attempting to flame a certain person on their opinion and criticism of the armor from the bottom of my heart, and I promise I shall not, in any way or form, condone in activities of such manner no matter the degree. I have faulted and I will take the responsibility for my actions and accept in that I have erred. I am very, very sorry if I have offended you in any way, to the person whom this was directed to. I was just trying to make a silly play out of it, but I guess that what I said wasn’t appropriate and would be called flaming. I am very sorry for what actions I had performed, and I promise to not do them again... There is no way to express this fully in a text-based format, but I can assure you that I have accepted my mistake and shall not make a mistake of this degree again.




moe -> RE: =DF= Pyromancer Discussion Thread (5/21/2019 6:44:35)

Hiya. Pretty new to using the armor so I wanted to ask: what's the best monster/situation to use the armor in?




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