Passive Rework (Full Version)

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ND Mallet -> Passive Rework (8/28/2013 14:18:30)

I have an idea that will compromise both sides. We have players who feel passives are necessary to identify class traits, and players who feel that any skill that MUST be invested into or have to face a poorer performance in battle needs to be nerfed. So how do we fix this? Simple.

We rework passives entirely. Instead of using skill points to improve, they use only level. Meaning that no matter what, you will only ever have a lvl 1 passive. You don't even need to invest skill points into it and it wouldn't even need to be a part of the skill tree, thus opening up a couple extra slots to fill with new skills and to allow filling in of gaps in some trees.

So for example, Mercs no longer have Adrenaline or HA in their tree. They have one single passive that gives them defense and increased rage gain and it improves over time with level. The numbers are the same except spread out. Level 1s will have the same rage gain and defenses as HA and Adrenaline at level 1 and level cap players will have lvl 10 HA and Adren.

Thoughts? Opinions?



Mother1 -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 14:35:55)

While I like the idea there are other problems this could cause.

For example there will be 2 blank spots on every skill tree. They will need to fill the holes with new moves, and if it isn't don't correctly these new moves will mostly likely be unbalanced causing other issues.

Or if they don't do the first suggestion by adding new moves there will be those extra skill points that can be added to other moves making already powerful builds more powerful since they won't have to worry about investing skill points into passive skills.



ND Mallet -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 14:45:32)

The first point is fair, but the second point doesn't take into consideration energy costs. So what if players have an extra skill to utilize if they don't have the energy to use it as well as the other skills? Cheap Shot is great for str builds but if you're using Cheap Shot instead of Massacre then you're just managing your strategy bad. If they want to use all the skills then they'll need to take points out of somewhere and invest into energy instead.



Bionic Bear -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 14:57:52)

I would support this idea, but however, people would have an excess of skill points left over if they didn't need to put them into passives. Every single build being used by every single player would need tweaks as they wouldn't be using skill points for passives anymore. Take into mind the quintessential strength blood mage. If they didn't need to invest ten points into blood lust, where else would they put it? And since one needs to use all of their skill points in order to level up/retrain, a blood mage intending to use a strength build would need to put his points somewhere else, even if they don't use the skill, in order to level up/retrain. While I'm using blood mage as an example, this would go for other classes as well.



kosmo -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 16:18:37)

And if we had less points to invest, maybe they could give us 1 skill point evry 1,5 levels, with about 25 skill points, that means you wont get skill points evry lvl.



ND Mallet -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 17:05:58)

@bionic What's the problem with having extra skill points? With a potential two new skills added into the skill trees after passives are removed, you could always invest in those two or even invest in something you won't use or need. I know I've invested in a skill at least once just to throw off some strategies even though I would never use it.



Bionic Bear -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 17:16:09)

@ND
What do you mean by 'throw off some strategies?'



Predator9657 -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 17:18:31)

Moose, you're a genius!

This solves the problem of passives being essential to invest in for almost all builds, and at the same time we get to keep our beloved passives.


@Bionic: One of the main purposes of removing the passives is to give players more skill points to spend.



ND Mallet -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 17:21:38)

@bio I used to run a Support Merc way back in Beta in 2vs2. I had a lvl 9 FC and Artillery. Most people assumed I was using Artillery as my main strategy so they would take enough energy to remove that option in battle but really I was using FC to hit them hard with strength attacks and then finish them off with a rage aux after it wore off. There was also another build I had with a dummy skill that people would try targeting but I don't remember what it was.



Bionic Bear -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 17:43:01)

@ND
Oh I see what you mean now. This would give people room to put skills points in places to deceive others, and also to put some points in places that is not your main focus to throw off a possible concussive shot core from the auxiliary... And, in essence, this would enable people to power-up all their builds by having more skill points to put in to their main damage attack.
Supported now, unless I'm just being corrupted by your moosey influence. xD



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 21:01:20)

Since you now level up passives, I'm guessing that there won't be any requirements. That will be quite imbalanced, considering some classes have requirements to prevent abuse.

Example: Shadow Arts requires support so they can't be all defense. Deadly aim requires support so you can't just spam strength easily.




Exploding Penguin -> RE: Passive Rework (8/28/2013 21:49:06)

Supported, I guess, would make fights quite interesting and I could spend my skill points investing in other things for my own creative and fun builds.

Just to clarify, the passive will require no skill points but will still take up a slot on the skill tree?



goldslayer1 -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 3:31:27)

this sounds ok, but how do expect to balance?
some classes have 2 passives while others have 1 (no, SA does not count)

and at the same time, balance on classes like tactical merc, their skills are set up so that you spend the majority of your points into passives while leaving them with other skills but at low levels cause they'd be too effective at high levels.

granted, i think its still much better than making them actives, this does bring its issues.



Bloodpact -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 11:51:04)

quote:

I have an idea that will compromise both sides. We have players who feel passives are necessary to identify class traits, and players who feel that any skill that MUST be invested into or have to face a poorer performance in battle needs to be nerfed. So how do we fix this? Simple.

We rework passives entirely. Instead of using skill points to improve, they use only level. Meaning that no matter what, you will only ever have a lvl 1 passive. You don't even need to invest skill points into it and it wouldn't even need to be a part of the skill tree, thus opening up a couple extra slots to fill with new skills and to allow filling in of gaps in some trees.

So for example, Mercs no longer have Adrenaline or HA in their tree. They have one single passive that gives them defense and increased rage gain and it improves over time with level. The numbers are the same except spread out. Level 1s will have the same rage gain and defenses as HA and Adrenaline at level 1 and level cap players will have lvl 10 HA and Adren.

Thoughts? Opinions?


My only problem is that Merc's Passive Adrenaline sucks.

So while everyone else will have awesome maxed passive without having to invest points, Mercs will be down an arm.



CivilAE -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 15:27:29)

Supported.

I think this would give all of the classes utility. Not having to invest in passives Ex. Shadow arts/ Plasma armor I could put those extra point in where they are needed the most like Multi-shot/Poison/Plasma Grenade.

As a Cyber I have to be fairly cautious of how I gamble my energy, cause once its gone there is no getting it back. Which means its key making/getting the most of that energy pool while it last.

-Instead of always relying on Bot/Aux as in offensive option I would finally be able to use Cybers offensive skill capabilities to its fullest.

-Seeing as most cybers are more tank investing in Dex/Tech having a buffed unavoidable attack like plasma grenade or multi that work well with malfunction at the cost of higher energy consumption.

With the way things are right now these attacks are weak, and get low investments which don't make much of an impact in battle play so its not really worth investing in them at all ( with the exception of stun grenade for those lucky stun moments, which is not something to depend on).

All that on top of two new usable skills just sounds fantastic.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 15:38:53)

genius idea.
just genius.
[:D]

quote:

Adrenaline sucks.


for most of the part yes, but when used with a support build or a build that uses moves like zerker and maul the rage gain is noticable. it just needs to be bumped up to a higher %.

quote:

For example there will be 2 blank spots on every skill tree.


you are right, but they could simply rearrange the skills and keep 2 level 10 skill spots empty.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 19:10:15)

@Civil

Try a Strength/Tank build (yes this exists) with a max Static Charge. Plasma Grenade and/or Multi Shot will suddenly become useful.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Passive Rework (8/29/2013 19:14:54)

@Dual: Very few builds actually have purpose in static charge. It's mostly used to get a last cheap shot, EMP, or defense matrix, or to fill a tiny gap from healing if you had your energy removed earlier. Investing in it fully only boosts the base by about 50%, which may sound like a lot but compared to other passives and similar active skills it's really nothing much. All other passives, at high investments, double or go over the values provided by the base value.

Basically, investment in static charge really isn't worth it. However, it's still usable at level 1 in some situations.



CivilAE -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 1:45:33)

@Dual Thrusters

I'm aware of more offensive builds with Cyber and I have tried pretty much all of them[;)] But thanks anyway. Most of the time though I find static unreliable, gimmicky, in my current build I'm using a single point investment. I just let my energy expend over the match for as long as possible.

My point was that these skills could be more usable on other types of builds like tankier ones, and vice-versa. Without being too tanky, or super offensive which is how I see most builds as of now. Excluding 5 focus which even both ways.

I kind of want that defensive, but not completely defensive, but not all balanced like five focus. Which is what we had with delta enhances, able to invest freely on any stats powering up skills that would normally do less because of low point investment. Except this time we could get that with the class itself

I tend to switch builds often even-though I have higher winning builds because I find it boring to fight with the same build over and over. Since this idea would bring more skill diversity to ANY build I use, I won't have to do that as much anymore and I would also save some credits for stuff like achievements/cores/weapons.



Striker44 -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 7:27:21)

It's a good idea , 100% supported. Anyway , i think that waste a turn to activate a "passive" it's a really bad idea imho



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 9:39:10)

@striker

We don't even know yet if they will be buffs that you activate. Like Bloodlust, it could be like Frenzy with no energy cost and no Cooldown.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 10:18:31)

while max static charge seems like a bad idea, it works on a tank build in juggernaut.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 11:35:21)

@ED: I guess it would because naturally you'd hit higher on strikes on lower levels.



ED Divine Darkness -> RE: Passive Rework (8/30/2013 19:04:28)

quote:

@ED: I guess it would because naturally you'd hit higher on strikes on lower levels.


thats why it works



Dual Thrusters -> RE: Passive Rework (8/31/2013 1:43:55)

I'd love to start a discussion about Static Charge, but we're beginning to go a little off topic.



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