RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (Full Version)

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ergotth -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 13:27:38)

@Dante
actually the difference between a war is that the bossfight is 1-button away, yes, you have to fight the waves, but thats not necessary to reach the boss once he is ready to be taken as foe.



dragon_monster -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 14:23:56)

Okay I like and hate the new bosses of chapter 3 now I can beat them because I have very powerful classes and in spite of the new powers bosses have with my doomknight they are not a impossible challenge. But what I hate and I wonder what free players think(since the base class is the strongest class they have acces to?) is why is the warrior class the weakest against them I mean I love the class my favorite in the game and I get frustrated that I can not defeat the new bosses 1vs1 without guest with it because its defense skills well are very lacking and then I hear that you can with rogue and with mage because of the blind skill. Okay I like the challenge but I hate that it makes the warrior class the weakest of the base classes. Now I know I can use guest to make up for the weakness but it breaks my Role play in the game.



Verlyrus -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 15:19:23)

Hey guys, I want you to know that I really enjoy all the feedback, positive and negative, that you guys have been providing! I've got a lot more tricks up my sleeves, and there are definitely some good concerns you bring up.

Cooldowns/Mana costs
I've been looking at other options for restricting skills than these, although I do have plans to add some of this to future bosses. For examples of these restrictions, Valtrith's stun attack only happens when he is above 50% health, while his shield/heal happens when he is below. The randomness adds variance to fights, which I think is pretty cool, rather than just a boss doing the same rotation over and over. However, I'm sure I can find a way to combine these two mindsets into something truly awesome. Still, there are other ways to make things mean...

I definitely agree with you all that the occasional unlucky stunlock/healblock chain can be very frustrating, though. Future bosses won't have so much of that. At least, not without predictability.


Keep up the feedback! I really appreciate it! :D



Sentimental Melody -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 16:01:49)

That 50% thing sounds like something I'd be on board with. Almost like you have two different fights and have to be able to handle a slightly different approach for both, without the chance to change classes or such in between. xP

I think what mostly gets people complaining is if they have boss battles widely different from the ones you actually plan for us to get. I've had runs against them where they hardly ever used their special attacks (or one with MG where he got stuck many times and therefore fewer turns overall) so it became rather easy. On the other hand, I've gotten stunlocked or seen the healshield 10+ turns in a row which I just can't keep up with even with a guest. Obviously such extremes are less likely statistically, but they'll still happen, since your sample size (the number of times a player fights one of these bosses) is very large.

I've had a couple thoughts about how to address that and get things to smooth out, as it were. The first idea is to have the boss use a special whenever he can, but to have relatively lengthy cooldowns and/or high costs. If the cooldowns are all the same though, you'd likely get a cycle of special-heavy turns followed by a series of default attacks. It seems like it'd take a lot more trial and error to get good numbers for the difficulty you want.

The alternate is to have the boss's random decision of what attack to use factor in how many turns it's been since he's last used it. Ex: 

special_threshold = x * t;


Where 0 < x << 1 and t = turns since it was last used. Or it can be x * t^2 if you want the possibility to ramp up more quickly. That way it's highly unlikely (or just unlikely if it's not such a strong special) to spam those attacks, but it will also ensure that your boss won't just mess about with normal turns forever, so he will present some challenge. Yet another alternative is to set it to x * (t-1) to guarantee no immediate repeats of specials.

Of course you'd have to decide whether he's gonna execute each special separately as opposed to a spectrum on one random number, but I don't think it'd be that much extra computation.



xxDantExx -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 16:52:12)

@ ergotth : true .. sorry btw for the confusion but what i meant was about the logic of getting to the boss... not exactly the literal situation ^_^

coz this is how it goes, " Can you directly face the boss ? "
in quests : No you can't, you have to face his pawns first before u can reach him at the end of the line..
in wars : Neither too, since at the start of the war there's still no boss button yet.. so logically they're both the same where u can't directly fight the boss

anyway i know what he meant was the quests w/ the bosses at the end of it...



afb728 -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 17:22:17)

I enjoy the new bosses, but I think I would like them more as an occasional thing or at the end of a storyline. They are always an interesting challenge.

One of my biggest worries, going back to what Miran said, is the beginning characters. My secondary is an exclusively Book 3 Level 13 Non DA (except for the baby dragon, but I did that to make the Player Hatching cutscene make sense). As such, she cannot survive any bosses, since there are not any Book 3 classes or guests to help her. So, for any new players that have decided to start in Book 3, it is extremely difficult to advance through the storyline.

EDIT:
@Below and others: I am a huge fan of cooldowns for bosses and the idea of skills costing mana. Otherwise the mana damaging skills we have are rather useless.



Dracojan -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 17:43:06)

as much as I like the new bosses I also hate them for some of the cheap skills that they have. first manacrest: I only defeat he when she doesn't use her 1k, 2kcrits attacks. she also uses a shield that makes her unhittable for 4 turns. even with dmk when I played against her on hard mode extreme she used her shield every 2nd turn for 10 turns or more. it was quitefrustrating. then she hit me for 1k first round, 2k crit the 2nd and I died. horrible 15 or so rounds overall for me. then I beat her multiple times when she either didn't use the shield or nuke. which is like she is going easy on me and that's also not good.

the gnome: his 3 turn stuns that drain a big potion of mana have left me stunned for 21 or more turns because of me regening mana in some way or another. 6 or so turns were even in a row. I wasn't playing during half the battle.

the war boss: he didn't stunlock me, he didn't nuke me. overall weaker but more fun boss. the dmg increase he has, heal and occasional stuns were overall much better.

overall, strong skills are good but they should be combined with cooldowns, mana cost or something in that manner.



bobtehnoob -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 18:59:14)

quote:

as much as I like the new bosses I also hate them for some of the cheap skills that they have. first manacrest: I only defeat he when she doesn't use her 1k, 2kcrits attacks. she also uses a shield that makes her unhittable for 4 turns. even with dmk when I played against her on hard mode extreme she used her shield every 2nd turn for 10 turns or more. it was quitefrustrating. then she hit me for 1k first round, 2k crit the 2nd and I died. horrible 15 or so rounds overall for me. then I beat her multiple times when she either didn't use the shield or nuke. which is like she is going easy on me and that's also not good.


That's kinda the point of a boss, isn't it? We aren't supposed to be able to easily plow through them like we're lawnmowers and they're grass, they're supposed to be a challenge. And if you are using DmK, how is it difficult to win? DmK is overpowered with proper strategy and knowledge of the game mechanics, as well as abusing its various abilities. You can also shield to the point where you can't get hit either, so you need to know how to use your own nukes and shields in response to an enemy's.

But yes, bosses need to consume her own mana.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 19:25:58)

@Ash: Everything you say is very true - and as an end-game player of DF, only logging for new challenges I give myself or for new releases, I find these bosses, including Jayson, VERY VERY EASY. However, I look at everything from a NON-DA player PoV. This is why we need some restrictions. There is no way you're winning with only 1/2 your skills to choose from, and enemies that can provide a challenge for average players with sub-par and par equipment. Especially if you're a lunch-break gamer and have non-par equipment. This is why I think we need a few other things.

@Verlyrus: In every RPG I've ever played, I always get to that boss I just can't lose too. You can always 1 hit, or simply walk all over. Than I get to those other bosses, the ones that you utterly destroy until they get low on HP, than all of a sudden they start using these new skills that wipe me out 'cause I'm not prepared for them. Health locked skills/attacks are something that has become a staple in RPG's and even my own fighting style. We're at full health, we can duke it out, we're not taking it 100% serious. Than we notice how dangerously close we are to loosing, dying. We kick it up a gear, we get serious, and we start fighting harder than ever before.
This is why I love your idea :3

@Both: I still think they should be locked to using mana like us as well -.-' It just makes since ! Need I remind you of Akriloth - She is soooo powerful as an opponent and enemy, but that's because of her extremely powerful skills that consume mana. Take out the mana and she becomes par to other enemies that only have a basic attack. Now, while I find wiping out an enemies mana kinda cheap, Mysterious G and Seppy both showed us how defenseless even we are without mana to use skills. Without our mana use, we are as weak as normal enemies - and so should be other enemies that rely on skills and magic. We live in a world of magic and mana - they shouldn't have an endless supply of it without tapping into a mana-line or core.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 19:33:10)

I think the ability to completely wipe out Akriloth's Health is one reason why the DragonFable developers have been shirking so far from making Boss Monsters too reliant on Mana. The strategy for every single Boss Fight could easily become "Weather the attacks and hit at their Mana until they can't do anything."

That is why I think cooldowns and Mana costs could be an interesting mechanic added to Boss Monsters, but never at the same time. The advantage of a Boss Monster using Mana could be that they- as a result- do not need to suffer a cooldown. By that same token, the usage of cooldowns could be an advantage for a Boss Monster since they would not be susceptible to tactics involving Mana-burning.

All of the Boss Monsters thus far have been within the realm of difficulty for everyone, including non-DA players. The only difference is that our Skills are now being tested far more rigorously than before. Sticking to one Class and only one Class to defeat a Boss Monster may not work as well as it did in the past. We have access to just about every Class in DragonFable, and we are being expected to take advantage of that.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 19:50:26)

I do not disagree Fae. The bosses are still within the realm of possibility even for non-DA, and should be testing us like this still.
I, however, disagree about not having CD and MC separate.

I'll start however; by saying I completely agree with the mana-wipe out issue. I've been thinking of ways that this could be solved, such as every 3 turns the enemies restore a bit of mana no matter what they do that turn. Obviously our enemies are more in tune with the world than we, and thus probably are in tapped to be able to absorb mana from the world. But that could have its downsides, and be way too much work on the DF staff.

I'll fill with; my reason I disagree about separating CD and MC. 5-10 turn CD for skills would be too much, but by making a 2 turn stun a 3 turn CD, it could prevent stun locks, while the enemy still using up their mana and making so they have to use less.

I'll end the build up with; Not all their attacks should take mana. Nukes, like manacrests or Barons, that hit for almost half our HP, should remain free. They're massive attacks meant to wipe us out, but they use it sparingly. This would make it like a signature move - like we have our Trinkets, or weapon specials. They're always free, or super super low cost on mana(for trinkets) and can do a devastating amount of damage.

I'll climax with; By mixing these together you can get an enemy that can provide a massive challenge while still having greater strategic value. We know that we get at least 1 turn without being stunned, use it to blind, stun, or defend. Or maybe heal a little. We know it costs ___ amount of mana, so we need to make sure we watch the mana bar to know what we can still expect. Especially if we have a class that can't attack mana.

I'll break down with; If we also have it a certain mana regen locked to a % of HP, they could regain mana and devastate us even at low HP left, which would throw a lot of people off for at least their first run.

I'll end with; and by implementing these at certain difficulties of the boss, we could alter these in ways to make them even more dangerous and more of an extreme challenge other than just having increased HP and damage. Such as a counter attack every time we hit their mana instead of HP on extreme, but not on normal.



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:10:13)

I'm liking the idea of mana costing skills. A thought occured to me as to how to make them not easily defeatable from lack of mana; the way players do it. We have potions, who's to say we're the only ones? Also, sacrifice MP for HP maybe? Mana shields, regens, there are many ways.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:19:30)

If a player employed a Mana-burning strategy only to have the Boss Monster recover its Mana, we would get a complaint like this:

"What is the point of a Boss using Mana when it just heals it back?"

It could be a neat mechanic for an individual Boss Monster- like one that Stuns itself for six turns to recover Mana when its Mana is low, offering a distinct advantage to Mana-damaging Classes- but nothing permanent that could work for a broad spectrum of Boss Monsters.

... Come to think of it, that could be a really cool Boss Monster. Reminds me of Baron Brixius from the Sonny series of Flash RPGs. :)

@DJ9K: I would think that nukes and other game-ending Skills should cost Mana while lesser Skills do not. The Skill would become a central part of the player's strategy to shut down, but the Boss Monster would still have other Skills to fall back on.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:31:19)

Yes, there would definitely be a complaint like that, but if he heals it when he hits low HP, than they wouldn't expect it. Especially if it's a high mana using boss, they'll get a false sense of security, and will be caught off guard by it. Making the boss a large 1st-rung challenge. And might be balanced if it was only done once.
Although I must admit, I do very much like your idea. Giving themselves a prevention of movement to heal mana could be good, but with the high-Ddamage of several classes it'd probably need to shorter stun, and heal more than mana skills could remove.

Nukes are usually what we want to avoid, but if it's the enemies signature move, than it should be a free-use attack. It's their signature after all! Just like my signature is using the void element to wipe everything out easily. Thus the Hampster series special is my signature attack - reduction of void resistance. It has no mana usage. also the 500% nuke of Gloom Glaive. As long as they can't use the attack regularily, it's not such a massive threat. 10 turn wait between nukes, which barons stun locking and healing could provide him the turns, and mana-crest's warning prior to use, make them easy to counter without reducing mana, and gives the boss an attack other than normals to use still.



pitties -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:42:39)

what if the bosses were of different stat builds like players?

A caster monster would use mana for high damage for 2-3 casts then run out of mana. After that it would do normal damage. Another type of caster could do less damage on spells to regen mana on their normal attack!

A warrior type monster would use their str stat to do higher damage with no mana costs but wouldn't have access to powerful spells. Their mana would be used for small heals instead.

A berserker type monster would do higher damage based on the length of the battle and have no mana costs or cooldowns or heals!

A rogue type monster would specialize in dex and have high M/R/M and low hp with a blind skill for mana. Their normal attack would be weaker but they could do long term damage with blinds!

A tankish monster would have endurance trained to the max and have weak attacks but like 50 all resist?

We could use these patterns and make some more maybe that would make monsters more strategic without being easy after being "mana burned." While the casters could be mana burned, the warriors and berserkers and tanks would keep going and the rogue could dodge the mana burns!



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:47:23)

@Pitties Fantastic idea, I know ranger has the Stat Shot that reduces the stats...but is kind of redundant seeing as most classes don't have stats. A type of skill like that on most of the classes would be killer if more monsters had stats...



pitties -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:53:42)

of course these are the basic builds. Bosses could mix and match stats as long as they made sense. [:D] (spellsword boss ftw!)



Izumi* -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 20:58:36)

quote:

One of the chief reasons my warrior isn't my main character is that they and their riftwalker upgrade haven't got one. Instead they have a strength reduction, which seems almost silly given how few enemies actually have stats at all.

@ Sentimental Melody: Actually Riftwalker's strength strike reduces the target's boost (overall damage) similar to Soulwaver's Sealing slash. Strength strike has its uses like being used as a "cushion" to defeat some of the harder hitting bosses such as MF Davey and Stomach Ache Splashy.
Although I do agree that blind skills are valued more then nerf skills. Since not getting hit is better than getting hit for half damage. :)

On the subject of the recent bosses.
Stronger bosses are kinda inevitable in games as the story progresses. Ash has already touched on why this is happening now as opposed to the previous books with his post. Although I do wish the staff had held off a bit longer, or at the very least, increased the difficulty of bosses at a slower pace. That way the player would have more options to deal with difficult bosses in the form of revamped classes or book 3 guests. The way I see is that bosses like Mysterious G and Valtrith might have been better off if the option to include a guest was available their battles. Both Ash and Tomix are present for their respective boss battles, but they stand on the sideline letting the hero do all the dirty work. I understand that things like that take time, and weekly releases take away from said time, which is probably why they aren't implanted yet. However it is a bit glaring when they're literally standing no more then five feet away from you before and after the battle.

Let it be known that I personally love the battle against Valtrith for it's unpredictable difficulty. Just to use an example of this I took on Valtrith twice with my level 54 Riftwalker before making this sentence and had a completely different experience with each battle. The first battle was in the favor of my Riftwalker because Valtrith played nice and never used his paralysis attack or spammed his heal/shield more then twice. The second battle was a complete one eighty in favor of Valtrith with him stunlocking me first turn, heal/shield looping himself back to enough health to use his paralysis again, and applying his Dread DOT often in order to use his 6 hit attack. Needles to say I lost the second battle, but I was more amazed how different he seemed to behave during the rematch.

Overall I'm satisfied with the difficulty with the newer bosses. As long as the difficulty is adjusted properly in accordance to how they fit into the quest they appear in. Like to say if someone like Valtrith or MF Davey where to appear in the middle of story related quest chain, and need to be defeated in order to progress the story as opposed to being an optional battle? Then yeah, something needs to be addressed. :P



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/17/2013 22:10:52)

quote:

I think the ability to completely wipe out Akriloth's Health is one reason why the DragonFable developers have been shirking so far from making Boss Monsters too reliant on Mana. The strategy for every single Boss Fight could easily become "Weather the attacks and hit at their Mana until they can't do anything."


Isn't that a bigger issue for TM instead of for MP-reliant bosses?

Being able to steal away all MP is a ridiculous skill, no matter what the implications.
Look at the Atlean classes, and we see that even they do not remove more than ~500 MP per turn.

By instantly depleting all of an opponent's MP, it's clear that Technomancer's Debug skill is the issue, rather than the bosses.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 0:00:29)

If Bosses are using their Mana while we deplete about 500 of it every turn- which is a pretty sizable amount of Mana- it would be a simple task to steadily wear away a Boss Monster until all of their Mana was depleted. There otherwise would be no exploitable advantage gained from Boss Monsters starting to use Mana.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 0:30:54)

@Fae: Not necessarily. If the enemy only has 200-300 MP and uses 20 per skill, they only get 10-15 skills they can use. Taking barons MP into consideration, around 3,900, if we have his stun use 30 mp, heal use 100 mp, and nuke free of charge, than taking his stun likelihood into consideration, he'll have gone through 300ish mana by time we get him out of his stunlock habit. Get to hit his MP from here on with smaller threat other than his nuke, and prevent him from heal-stalling for 50+ turns.
And if you take classes that don't have an MP attack into consideration, those classes would have a chance of getting an easier fight eventually as well. SoulWeaver I believe is one that doesn't - and is one of the most used classes that I know of.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 0:44:11)

Exactly. Even if the Class a person was using did not have a Mana-burning Skill, every Boss Fight could potentially become "Put up a defensive front until they waste all of their Mana." That could potentially warp the point of having more difficult Boss Fights.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 1:12:12)

I see. I understand what you've been saying too. But also, in some consideration, not all classes can defend that long. Playing an offensive class offensively is of course needed - however, there's the issue that not all bosses allow an offensive class to attack, or a defensive class to put their defenses up.

Taking Super Infernal Wargoth(yeah I know, titan doesn't really have a place here, but that's not what I'm getting at), he has a thing where he removes all add-ons from the player. Defenses, buffs, etc. This is extremely tide changing in a battle. But if this were to cost him mana, eventually he wouldn't be able to remove our powerful 100% boost and we'd have a fighting chance, even if he could use all his nukes.

So let's say we don't have the enemy use mana, but instead they have only CD. Apply now to ManaCrest, who gives a warning when she's about to use her nuke. She can only use it once every 10 turns - too easy, just save the blind and shield for that time. Now let's instead make it cost mana - she uses it 3 turns in a row by the players bad luck, but before the 3rd we take out the mana needed for it, thus preventing it, or we don't, and die.

Jayson's turn - he heals 30 times in a row and runs outa mana, free game. Or, it can be on a 5 turn CD, and he still out heals our damage only using the heal once every 5 turns(depending on equipment and class, of course.)

So, YES you ARE correct to a degree about it. However, if would become situational for what bosses need what what kind of change. Meaning, mana cost on enemies would be the exact thing to change in the game to keep bosses from the "bad luck" situations that keep weaker players unable to fight back against these newer bosses.
I created a new character, got him to 32, and got sub-par equipment, than fought extreme Jayson just a little ago - I was incapable of winning even with Aegis. He out healed me at my highest damage. WITH DA SKILLS.
Normal Jayson was moderately challenging.
Taking that in specific into consideration, I'd have to say if he would be locked to mana, I would have beaten pretty quickly since he spammed the heck outa his stun and heal/shield - he probably woulda ran out of mana within the first 30 turns and I woulda actually been able to win.



Faerdin -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 1:41:00)

To the contrary, I feel that a DragonLord player being unable to defeat the Baron because of their level and their equipment is a beautiful thing. The spirit of the RPG is self-improvement. Encouraging players to level up and obtain better equipment in order to delve deeper into the storyline is an art that has not recently been as strong in DragonFable. That the added difficulty in future Boss Fights may coax this integral aspect of the RPG to blossom further in the game is a very good thing. :)

Returning to the issue of Mana usage in Boss Fights... Super Infernal Wargoth is a prime example of how game-breaking usage of Mana in Boss Monsters could be. Not a living soul has yet been capable of beating that Titan Battle- and I have been told before that such a feat is simply a mathematical impossibility- and yet the possibility of waiting until Super Infernal Wargoth used up all of its Mana could actually render it a possibility.

That could be disastrous if integrated into every Boss Fight. It could be, as I said earlier, an interesting mechanic if incorporated into some Boss Monsters, but it could inhibit DragonFable's growing emphasis on strategy if not handled with care. Such a mechanic should not be a crutch that any player could use if they are struggling. Cooldowns or Verlyrus' incorporation of Health-related triggers on Skills sound to me like systems with the lowest potential for abuse at this time.

Cooldowns may give players time to react with Blind or Shield Skills, but they still encourage consistent and strategic planning beyond engaging in a war of attrition.



DJ9K -> RE: Boss Difficulty Discussion (9/18/2013 1:59:54)

While I do agree that the lack of difficulty is almost saddening at times, something being too difficult is just as bad. A game that frustrates the player is a game that is often not played. A medium is a necessity that is lacked. This being one of the reasons I dread the loss of melt-face. Melt-face should be the mode that requires high-end gear, strategy, and build to defeat. Not just extreme. Extreme should be sub-par, moderate level capable with good strategy, and normal the for-all battle.
If we could get more ingame notes to visit the forum for strategic help, I wouldn't mind this all. However, I myself didn't get into the forums, or even know we had any until a friend of mine who plays told me about them. - I suppose that might also be a minor issue, the lack of players who get on forums to even know about the better gear, where to get it, and such.

SIW is actually quite possible with a 1.3####% chance of defeating him with the right egg move. Without it, it's less than 0.004% though >.<
Either way, an impossible boss is not a good thing, unless it's suppose to be impossible. SIW is not suppose to be. - Of course, 10-20 more levels, and he won't be. Or even just Dragon Equipment. But the mana would be game changing.

Now, while I do see your point on static strategy, abused methods, and and removal of challenge, and they are good points, than we should see more enemy bosses that have their Bonus increased as well, since I could just use Ascendent and the enemy only have 1 turn where it's not at -50 bonus before getting blinded again. - Even - More - Broken


Health triggers are something I am in 100% agreement with. Especially since it could give a boss a feeling of change mid fight. I've had fights in game where I all of a sudden start using other skills my class has because I lost too much HP - So it's like they stop holding back, and it'd limit some aspect.
But we'd still need something to prevent mass spamming of some techniques - like a 20% hp heal. Even if that were the only skill that used mana, it'd still be annoying if spammed multiple turns in a row.

And you know, if we were to make our Mana-attacking skills have 5+turn cool downs, it could still hinder us to a degree. Boss would still get out his attacks, and it'd take too long to take out mana to be worth static fighting of Holding out until we mana-burn them. But should it come to a situation where the fight lasts 50some turns, we could help reduce that to 30 by taking out the enemies mana every so many turns, or we could out damage their defenses.
That would help to solve both the problems, now wouldn't it? Especially if we only hit 300 per mana attack on an enemy with 4k mana.



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