RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 9:16:18)

@ Hun kingq

The other energy drainers are a one shot deal energy parasite however is not. It lingers for 3 turns forcing players to dump their energy unless they want to feed the blood mage for the next 3 turns. Also while we are on that if you are so eager to compare the other energy drainers lets do so.y

Assimilation: Yes it has no requirement however the drain on this move is extremely low even with high strength due to the high amount of strength needed to increase the drain. 10 strength for every upgrade with this drain is extremely high. It can also be countered with intimidate which Energy parasite doesn't have to worry about. Plus like energy parasite this move is blockable and a one shot deal with a cool down of 4 turns with a weapon requirement. Energy Parasite has no requirement with weapons.

Static smash: Yes it improves with strength and has a high return with the drain however there is a catch. Like Energy parasite it can be blocked and it has a weapon requirement unlike energy parasite. But unlike energy parasite the drain effect of this skill goes down if it is blocked, and unlike Energy parasite no rage gain is gotten here. Also like Assimiation it can be countered with intimidate and . So a while this skill has no requirements in stats it has it's draw backs that can be deadly.

EMP Grenade: One of the most powerful drainers in the game. However unlike Assimilation and Static Smash this move costs energy to use, and like the other drainers can be weakened with a debuff once again something Energy parasite doesn't have to worry about also like Energy parasite it is the only drainer other than atom smasher with a 3 turn cooldown.

Static Grenade: A weaker version of EMP grenade seeing as it is used to give back energy. It can be weakened with the omega weapons (if support is the highest stat) as well as the delta weapons something Energy parasite doesn't have to deal with. Has a cooldown of 4 turns.

Atom Smasher: Similar to Atom Smasher except it doesn't give back energy. Has an energy cost, a weapon requirement, and like Static Smash it can be blocked. Give no rage whether blocked or connects. Can also be weakened with intimidate and has a 3 turn cooldown.

Energy parasite: works for 3 turns draining X percent of your opponent's current energy while giving back Y percent back (Based on the level you use it at) Has a cooldown of 3 turns, blockable, has a support requirement, and has no weapon requirement.

Now you gripe about the support requirement and how it doesn't improve with nothing, however did you look at drawbacks off the other moves? Unlike the others energy parasite's effect can't be nerfed by a debuff, doesn't have a energy cost like EMP grenade or Atom Smasher, The drain effect can't be blocked like Static Smasher and Atom Smasher, and doesn't have an absrudly high stat need to improve like Assimilation.

Plus unlike the other drainers this move has a tactical trait that none of the others have which is you can force your opponent to play a way they don't like due to the content draining of their energy in an effort to counter you leaving them without energy or low energy. Plus with all the energy drainer's/gainers it has the lowest cool down because static smash, Static grenade, and Assimation all have 4 turn cooldowns where as Energy parasite has 3.

If you are going to compare moves look at everything between them which mean both pro's and con's not just what one move can do or has and the other doesn't. That also leads to imbalance in the game.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 11:42:16)

Mother 1, it is quite clear that you can't see how it is unfair in the Boss Battle where you need pretty much high tech and dex and a way to drain the energy of Lionhart so he can't use his skills, with an energy drain skill requiring 42 support the player using the Blood Mage pretty much has to wait till level 40 (Rank 100) to have both while the other classes can complete that mission between Rank 30 - 40 because the NPC partner gets less than 100 damage per turn.

So spending over 50,000 credits and having to sell some equipment trying different builds to beat the Over powered Boss to complete the mission chain I have every right to complain when one skill you need is the energy drain skill which is only beneficial at max limiting the amount of points the Blood Mages has due to a strict support requirement carried over from Deadly Aim and the next Boss is supposed to be tougher.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 11:49:23)

I was Rank 1 when I won against Saeva, as a BM. Sorry Hun, but false statements won't get you anywhere, since the Boss is beatable without Ranks. I was using high Tech Focus 5 build at that, aka, my standard build.



Variation -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 11:53:54)

@Hun Kingq: It's possible to kill him as a level 38 Blood Mage also. I know this because I helped a level 38 Blood Mage kill him. I can give you the build if you want :P.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/21/2014 12:27:13)

Really hun, even at lvl 35 you can beat the boss as a bm.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/24/2014 22:39:41)

I want to make a statement regarding Intimidate, because it is somewhat ineffective against those with high amounts of strength due to diminishing returns. So, should we turn Intimidate to a percentage-based reduction or leave it the way it is?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/25/2014 22:06:11)

Support either needs to be reduced on the Energy Parasite or just taken off all together.

Intimidate Should be replaced with a better skill because it is ineffective especially against the Bosses, even on max.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/25/2014 23:35:07)

^

I believe the exact opposite of this.

I couldn't have beaten titan at level 36 if it wasn't for level 7 intimidate. Also, strike-spamming builds are held back only by the support requirement on energy parasite, making it harder for them to be tanky. If the support requirement was taken off then we'd see no end to strike spammers.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 0:13:14)

Kittycat: intimidate is fine, your problem is when you use it vs someone with max primary dmg of legendary ranks, it affects them just. Little unless you get more supp.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 1:31:38)

quote:

So spending over 50,000 credits and having to sell some equipment trying different builds to beat the Over powered Boss to complete the mission chain I have every right to complain when one skill you need is the energy drain skill which is only beneficial at max limiting the amount of points the Blood Mages has due to a strict support requirement carried over from Deadly Aim and the next Boss is supposed to be tougher.
You know it is funny since I was a BH and it was one of the classes with CH(which was the worst class to use against him before the change to static charge) and I managed to beat it with only 3 ranks. There was no need to change classes for that.

quote:

I want to make a statement regarding Intimidate, because it is somewhat ineffective against those with high amounts of strength due to diminishing returns. So, should we turn Intimidate to a percentage-based reduction or leave it the way it is?
Leave it as it is. If you make it based on percentage, it will be a waste on people with low strength.
e.g. Intimidate does -35% of primary damage.
Opponent has 480 primary damage.
Applying the effect it would have 312 primary damage. With the current intimidate, the debuff would be higher. This scenarios ain't that bad, because people with lower strength wouldn't be affected as much by this effect.



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 5:17:33)

Exploding Penguin, What about the strike spammers of the classes with other energy stealing skills, that has no support requirement (no stat requirement at all)? With no requirement on other energy stealing skills it is easier for them to be tanky and what does EMP improve with compared to Energy Parasite?

I have tested Intimidated at all levels with support at various levels against high strength players and bosses and it is very ineffective especially against Lionhart and if players are using using skills that don't improve with strength than it becomes a skill that will be unused, a wasted spot on the skill tree.

Is the Blood Mage suppose to be the evolved class of the Mercenary or the Tech Mage?

Why couldn't they come up with new skills for the new classes?



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 10:14:17)

@ Hun Kingq

Energy parasite does not work like any of the energy drainers. Every single energy drainer is a one shot deal meaning it does everything all at once. Where as energy parasite doesn't. It is the odd ball of the bunch and has an effect that works for 3 turns not one. So trying to compare energy parasite to any other energy drainer is impossible due to them working differently.

Also just because the others don't have stat requirements doesn't mean they don't have them. Look at Assimilation. You need a staff to use this move where energy parasite doesn't. Yet I see you ignore that fact. The same can be said of static smash and atom smasher. There items both have weapon requirements as well.

Not to mention Emp and atom smasher unlike energy parasite have energy costs unlike like energy parasite.

Here is another one I posted but you seem to forget. Static smash and atom smash can be blocked meaning that if this happens the drain loses 85% of it's power which can cripple these classes if this happens.

All the other energy drainers (with the exceptions of EMP and Atom smasher) Have higher cooldowns meaning that energy parasite can be used more often than them.

Lastly Energy parasite is the only energy drainer that is immune from being nerfed by debuffs and doesn't have a crazy requirement to power like a certain energy drainer.

I don't know why you don't look at the drawbacks all the other drainers have along with the upsides as well as how they are different hun because trying to give one class all of the perks without non of the drawbacks is how balance is broken and this is how classes get sent to the nerfing table.

Evolved =/= better Hun and we both know this.

The only thing I can agree with you on though is the last part of your post about giving all the classes their own moves.



Dual Thrusters -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 12:05:27)

I believe that Hun's last statement was about how BM is more of a combo of Merc and TM than a completely different class itself.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 13:08:09)

quote:

Exploding Penguin, What about the strike spammers of the classes with other energy stealing skills, that has no support requirement (no stat requirement at all)? With no requirement on other energy stealing skills it is easier for them to be tanky and what does EMP improve with compared to Energy Parasite?


I don't see any other energy steal nearly as effective that not only deals modest amounts of damage, but also gives substantial amounts of rage.

quote:

I have tested Intimidated at all levels with support at various levels against high strength players and bosses and it is very ineffective especially against Lionhart and if players are using using skills that don't improve with strength than it becomes a skill that will be unused, a wasted spot on the skill tree.


People use strength to:
-Energy parasite
-Debuff
-Use gun
-Bludgeon
-etc...

They don't need to have a lot of strength to still NEED to use it. Also consider intimidate + yetis or intimidate + azrael's will, and the fact that a lot of builds these days are already strength-dependent. Intimidate's good enough after the buff of reduced scaling energy costs.

quote:

Is the Blood Mage suppose to be the evolved class of the Mercenary or the Tech Mage?

Using your logic, it's also an evolution of BH for having reflex boost and energy shield, as well as mark of blood. Also using this logic, CH is an evolution of TM and BH, etc...
They need completely unique skills for each class. Isn't that something that was supposed to happen during Omega, but almost 0 steps have been taken to accomplish that?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 13:40:44)

Mother1, no energy drainers should work the same and no energy drainers should have a stat requirement to keep things on par with one another if one has support requirements to be fair all should have support requirements. EMP the highest energy draining skill of them all can’t be blocked and have not stat requirement, how is that fair?

Now you are saying a weapon requirement is the same as the stat requirement, with a weapon requirement and no stat requirement you can more easily have the energy draining skill on max you have a variety of build options without being concerned if you need support at such a high level.

Which is more deadly a strength Blood Mage with max parasite or a strength massacre hunter with max energy drain?

“Here is another one I posted but you seem to forget. Static smash and atom smash can be blocked meaning that if this happens the drain loses 85% of it's power which can cripple these classes if this happens.”

It can not cripple the class and no one should be relying on the energy drain skill to win matches.

“All the other energy drainers (with the exceptions of EMP and Atom smasher) Have higher cooldowns meaning that energy parasite can be used more often than them.”

Energy parasite takes away a percentage or the current energy so if the player has 10 energy at max the Blood mage only gets 10 Energy back, that surely will do damage.

So you want debuff skills to affect the weakest energy skill of them all to make it even weaker?

You are so wrong I am not trying to give one class all the perks. I want to hold Titan and the staff to their words of making things fair and balanced and skills on par with one another. If one energy draining skill has a support requirement than all should. I was one of the only ones that fought to improve assimilation while you and others stated that skill is just fine the way it is but look at how long the staff took to realize Assimilation needed improvements. Same with fireball. Same with Plasma Cannon. Same with Plasma Rain and other Multis. The Staff stated the new classes will get new Ultimate Skills, what are they and when will they come?

Dual Thrusters, actually the Blood Mage is more of a Frankenstein Class consisting of skills from the Hunter, Tech Mage, and Merc Class and as a new class or with any of the new classes that should not have happened. The new classes are suppose to be evolved of the previous class that means new but similar skills but skills to match their description not copy and paste skills.

When players saw the Blood Mage getting Intimidation, the community response was, “Really, you got to be kidding me, giving the new class a useless skill.” Use Intimidation on max against Lionhart and get back with us.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/26/2014 14:01:47)

Skill's power isn't based on how useful it is in one Boss battle. If you cannot beat Lionhart, please fix your build instead, because many BMs have beaten him who aren't even L40.

Also, no one would be silly enough to use Parasite when they have low EP. For the same reason, no one would use EMP/Static Smash/etc., when they have little to no EP.

No changes will be made to Parasite to make it more "Strength friendly", nor Intimidate removed entirely for a "better" debuff - ideally an offensive one that synergizes with Strength, and makes BMs overpowered. Sorry to rain on your parade, but this is NOT what balance means, and any changes that would overpower the class will NOT be happening. Balance has to be looked at objectively, not through your own perspective of "my class has to be the strongest" or "I pay for this, therefore it must be broken".



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 8:31:42)

Intimidate is effective on players lower rank or level than you but it is not as effective on players or bosses that are at ranks and levels high than you, that has to be looked into if they are going to keep intimidation with the Blood Mage Class because it intimidates no one.


Energy draining skills every match I have been in players of other classes had the energy drain skill at max and able to have 150 dex 60 tech with minimal amount of support sometimes 18 sometimes 22 and some of them was able to have high strength, Dex, and tech but everyone complains more about the Blood Mages having strength builds but it is ok for the other classes to abuse strength which is worse a strength abusing tech mage with malfunction or a Blood Mage?

Whether you like it or not the staff will see the unfairness towards the Blood Mage in the skill tree and the stiff requirements and change will be made that is long over due. If you want to deal with strength abusers of the tech mage and the Blood Mage than move the stiff support requirement to Bludgeon.

Plasma Rain still does to low of a damage to make a difference for the amount of energy it uses because even with a Support merc with very low tech I did not even get above 260 damage with 150 Dex and if their tech is higher you just wasted credits retraining.

The testers need to become the Blood Mage, play in the in game environment, and test each skill in each battle mode, even Titan needs to do this that way they can see for themselves what skills need to be improve but use them against players that have stats at different levels.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 9:17:17)

Time and time again, you refuse to give any evidence, and we often do it for you. Based on our fight yesterday, in PvP, your build is at fault. With 63 Dex, spamming Overload, followed by Bludgeon, will not get you anywhere. You should consider fixing your build first, before complaining about skills being ineffective for your build - even more so when you're aiming for high Strength build, and training skills that won't help you with getting the most out of your build.

Sorry, but no balance changes will be made to improve one build, and make it biased towards one class - even more so if it's your build being an issue, not the class. Based on a previous encounter with you, possibly back in late Delta, you had very similar build with plenty of flaws, and complained about not being able to win. Before you consider suggesting balance suggestions, I would advise you to look up the definition of balance - which is definitely NOT overpowering one class, and dismissing arguments as of to why something was done in a specific way (i.e. Parasite working the way it does).



Stonehawk -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 11:27:21)

If they made a balance change to make his build work, smarter builds would be unbeatable. Everything is ok right now IMO.

quote:

EMP the highest energy draining skill of them all can’t be blocked and have not stat requirement, how is that fair?


if a cyber used Hun King's stats, its EMP would be worthless even if maxed (190 energy cost), 'cause it improves with TECH. The problem is the way you use your stats, Hun King. Fix your build and stop complaining, BMs are fine now. Except for that fireball, I still think fire scythe would be more useful, but maybe the class would be overpowered with another defense ignoring skill (there's already cannon).



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 12:02:41)



quote:

You complain about the Blood Mage being Over Powered, look at Lionhart before complaining again.


Do you know that Blood Mage is quite objectively the best class to use for Lionhart?

quote:

Which is more deadly a strength Blood Mage with max parasite or a strength massacre hunter with max energy drain?


And how is that hunter going to fire off massacre in an era of energy drains?

quote:

I have tested Intimidated at all levels with support at various levels against high strength players and bosses and it is very ineffective especially against Lionhart and if players are using using skills that don't improve with strength than it becomes a skill that will be unused, a wasted spot on the skill tree.


Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't use debuffs on Saeva Lionhart? Y'know, since the battle lasts hundreds of turns? And maybe you shouldn't use a strength debuff on players that don't rely on strength?

quote:

It can not cripple the class and no one should be relying on the energy drain skill to win matches.


So...if I don't rely on my energy drain to win matches, why am I adding to the skill?

quote:

Plasma Rain still does to low of a damage to make a difference for the amount of energy it uses because even with a Support merc with very low tech I did not even get above 260 damage with 150 Dex and if their tech is higher you just wasted credits retraining.


According to EpicDuel wiki, Plasma Rain should be having a whopping 790 base damage at your level and supposed Dex. So tell me - how did the 'support merc with very low tech' get 530 res?

From Trans:
quote:

Time and time again, you refuse to give any evidence, and we often do it for you. Based on our fight yesterday, in PvP, your build is at fault. With 63 Dex, spamming Overload, followed by Bludgeon, will not get you anywhere.


This has got to be one of the worst builds I've ever seen.


Unnecessary content removed. Check your inbox. ~Caststarter



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 15:10:27)


Anyone else feel like there's a clear defining line between those who are good at using mark of blood and those who aren't?
It's pretty much whoever uses it on turn 1/2 is good, and whoever doesn't I beat most of the time, even if they're 2-3 levels higher. I think it probably needs to be changed in some way to be less restricting and less straightforward.

Unnecessary content removed. Check your inbox. ~Caststarter



Zarakii Kenpachi -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/27/2014 18:29:27)

i have been playing a while now to say the least after i took about a year off i came back to see the game so changed since i last played i was starting to get into it again. when i came back i was a tech and seen everyone using the good old all dex build as im sure everyone here can agree with here is what pretty much every tech is doing now. so i change to BM because i have always liked the class. just randomly trying out builds i settled on a support bot build and im having so many of these all dex techs saying i need to be nerfed because they dont know how to do anything other then what they see everyone else do. im questioning now why i came back to the game and i feel after seeing only a single server having a population of 500ish on good days that im not the only one.

p.s even without parasite my build does fine with no energy nerf it away i dont care

case and point i just won 4 battles without useing parasite mabey the devs should look into no improvement from stats on any skill so people stop abusing single stats



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Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/28/2014 15:41:47)

Support at 137+12 max Intimidation equals -61 strength
here are the results
Strength 45+14 -61
got 140 damage regular strike

Strength 81+35 -61

still got 212 and 249 regular strike

Strength 50+35 -61

damage 139
damage 184

45+5 -61

damage 209 with level 8 bludgeon

Strength 62+31 -61

regular strike 151
double strike 110+167

So as we can see Intimidation is very ineffective since everyone wants to call me a liar do the same test for yourself with the support I used and max Intimidation.

I do not know why the staff allows players to post another players TEST build just so they could degrade and disrespect them just as certain players have done over and over to me.

Just look at players responses to my post how truly disrespectful they are and the staff will continue on when they respond to this post.



Exploding Penguin -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/28/2014 16:05:43)

^Have you ever actually tried using a level 7 focus intimidate build, or somewhere around that level of intimidate? Or are you just going entirely off of theory with the game numbers?

quote:

So as we can see Intimidation is very ineffective since everyone wants to call me a liar do the same test for yourself with the support I used and max Intimidation.

Don't even bother testing stuff in this method, because we all know that as of now intimidate isn't a conventional debuff that you use as you please. Most people also realize max support builds and max intimidate suck because of how cost-inefficient they are.

Look at it from this perspective:

My level 7 intimidate costs 165 energy. Let's say it reduces 37 strength (actual numbers from my previous build), and I'm going to estimate on average it took down strike damage ~50-70-ish.
If the enemy just used their robot and their aux and I pop an intimidate on them, what happens now? They can use their energy drain but can't escape at least one turn of intimidate. A 50 damage mitigation is, in my opinion, definitely worth 165 energy if I get rage while applying the debuff, I deal damage while applying it, and reduce the enemy's rage gain because their damage potential was reduced. Sometimes people will even let themselves get affected by it 2 times, which is 100-140 damage mitigation. Therefore, in some cases if used correctly, you can make almost a 1-1 trade of energy spent and reduced damage taken. NO damaging skill is ever this efficient, not even bludgeon, which is the most efficient damage skill that is around +70-90 damage for 100 energy. At max level it could balance out as being about the same efficiency, but the damage mitigation brought by a correctly timed intimidate is one of the cheapest ways to reduce damage taken.

Another thing you can use intimidate for is to limit the enemy's offensive options. Say you know they need/really want to use mark of blood. Well, you just got a guaranteed strike while being intimidated off from them. Same goes for debuffs, static charge, assimilation, etc... You can also use intimidate in conjunction with azrael's will, double-dipping the effect of the forced strike by also making it hit you for barely any damage. Yetis are also a viable strategy. If the enemy uses their bot and/or energy drain, use your yeti, then intimidate.

Numbers alone can be effective, but I think you should go spend maybe like 20-30 battles trying out a level 7 intimidate focus build. Definitely try it with yetis and azrael's will if you can. Physically tested examples prove way more than just crafting accurate numbers but not actually displaying them with action. "You believe what you see," right?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Official Blood Mage Discussion Thread (9/28/2014 17:14:53)

Exploding Penguin, Those numbers I posted are not theories they are from PVP battles Some of us are trying to get things improved while others will say it is just fine as it is but for the amount of energy it cost it is very ineffective. If the staff will leave Intimidation with the Blood mage than they need to do something to improve its effectiveness.

Actually I did try Level 7 focus Intimidation build during the first weeks as Blood Mage and it was just as ineffective than but more so now since everything else has changed but that skill and many other skills



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