RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (Full Version)

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Rayen -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 11:35:57)

Well…just to make it clear from the get-go, I am completely against the option of becoming a Fleshweaver. I understand the allure of greed, but what you people are asking for is so selfish, so utterly MONSTROUS, that I am honestly appalled and ashamed at those of the DF community who are supporting this option.

Power is all well and good, but who can deny the power we already possess? If you want to experience what it would be like to be a Fleshweaver in-game…play the current Roirr saga and be satisfied that the hero is, and always will be, the good guy, defender of those less able to protect themselves (…so pretty much everybody). We’ve already failed so many people by abandoning them over these past years, why justify their disdain and hatred by becoming a soulless (or perhaps overly soul-y in this case) beast?

By willingly destroying or devouring the soul of an innocent being, let alone one who has bound his life to ours in true trust and friendship, we would becoming a servant of evil; a creature born of betrayal and pain, no longer the ‘Dragon Hero of Destiny’, but some twisted, corrupted, vile monster that I’m sure even Sepulchure would despise.

On top of the overall abhorrent nature of Fleshweaving (from what we’ve seen thus far, though the name of the art does little to convince otherwise), whereby a Fleshweaver must first consume the soul of their soul-ally, who’s to say that we won’t continue to require souls as sustenance? In Roirr’s aim to ‘never die’, has he become a creature ‘neither dead or alive’ like Voldemort (in HP 1), who had to drink the blood of a pure being (unicorn) in order to sustain his sub-life? How many more innocent people must we hurt to gain this hideous power?

I could go into more detail about how wrong I feel Fleshweaving is, particularly for our hero, but surely its wrongness should be well established in the minds of any decent person. In terms of its canon-inity (great word, I know :P), I feel that the class differs from Doomknight and Kathool Adept in that it is actually a possible art for our hero to learn. There has been only one Doomknight; we are not, in actuality, a floating tentacle monster; we COULD be a Fleshweaver. Thus, if we are to gain access to Fleshweaving skills, it should be through a concrete means, by which NPCs will be able to say, “Yes, the hero practices Pyromancy, Necromancy and Fleshweaving”.

If the price for becoming a Fleshweaver is the destruction of one of your closest friends, so be it. It seems a reasonable bargain - live a longer life, gain incredible power, destroy or lose those you love to pay for this. Some evil beings on Lore may agree to these terms, but I hope that you, the hero, will always be there to stop them.



Alm Nullamors -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 11:38:55)

If it's just going to be a simple in game Yes/No choice instead of a forced Yes on everyone, then I would support a Fleshweaver class. There's plenty of opinions from both sides.
As I don't use Soulweaver anymore and have no Baltael's Aventail, I might even consider using it myself...
A following Yes cutscene might be darker than Serenity's death though.



Zork Knight -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 11:47:02)

Pretty sure that if Fleshweaver was added to the game, all that would happen is that people would have the option of trading their Soulweaving abilities and Aegis. You wouldn't immediately lose Aegis and Soulweaver forever; you would be given the choice to do so in exchange of GREAT POWER.

The inclusion of Fleshweaver would literally in no way affect people who don't want to use it. It'd be an optional thing. Unless the staff decides to be extra-cruel and force it on everyone, but I don't think that'd happen. Unless we really make Ash angry.



lightriftwalker122 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 12:10:56)

@ Tomix Is the red stuff on the walls and the shop interior a part of Fleshweaver? being able to set up shop anywhere and then absorb it when done? or is it something only Roirr does? How does he set up shop?



Baron Dante -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 12:43:40)

@Zork: I think I'd actually disagree with that statement.

As the present, there's no class you couldn't use with a single character, provided you've gotten them at any point. Sure, some of these might include a hefty cost of some variety, like DCs for the base class change. But it's never a permanent lock-out.

As someone that used to spend a lot of time doing various challenges with various classes, being unable to use a class doesn't sound like something I'd want to happen.
Unless Fleshweaver was something that comes down to being nothing but an improvement in every single possible niche over Soulweaver, that is permanently restricting viable strategies. With which I'm seeing a few issues. Considering the whole "devour Aegis" thing, it seems rather unlikely you'd have an access to a guest that fills all niches of Aegis. Also, doing this would make Soulweaver inferior. In terms of usability, there'd be no reason to go Soulweaver over Fleshweaver.

There's also something that bugs me. If Aegis is devoured, would that mean he won't really be seen in releases ever again? It's very rarely, if ever that there're releases that bring back characters that are dead or otherwise gone.

From a personal standpoint, I really wouldn't like the idea of having to make a second character to access said content. (Partially because it'd be impossible to make a character on par with what I already have. There's no going back and getting some of the old rare classes)

So, I guess my view on this would depend on the actual permanency. If it is in fact permanent, without any sort of way to reverse this, such as DCs, I'd be against it.



megakyle777 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 14:30:21)

I'm with Baron Dante on this one. It either needs to be a non canon DC class, or not exist. The many, MANY issues of it being canon, the in game price of three classes being locked off ETC is too high in terms of a gameplay and story perspective.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 14:32:40)

Wow a post from Baron Dante, can i have your autograph, oh yeah this is a forum, nevermind then.

@dragon_monster
Correction Aegis DID try:
quote:

Aegis: I felt it. The moment when you were trapped. I tried to unfreeze you, but a dragon was guarding the ice block.
Aegis: Ah, well, that is thanks to you I suppose. You see, I'm an elemental spirit of valor, and my element is ice.
Aegis: You were trapped in a very powerful ice crystal, created by some potent magic.
Aegis: Since we are linked together, over the years, my power kept rising because you were frozen. Obvious, if you think about it.


Just some quotes fom Book 3 Aegis, he did try.

Well from some light skimming it seems Dragon_MasterN7 lightriftwalker122 ad3022 Snakezarr W.A.R.Z. and someothers are for it, versus everyone else who says no...
well fleshweaver didnt get 1000 yeses but it got some yeses.

After some snoring my answer is still no,
If saying yes means we will never see Aegis again
then the answer is clear.

So im guessing we would learn it from a ghost perhaps? or some murk?



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 14:34:13)

I think we really need some clarification here to give a proper answer: Tomix, would Aegis' removal be a forced decision upon everyone for the class to exist, or would it be a choice for each player to make, as in, once you choose to train Fleshweaver that would remove Aegis for you, but others could choose to avoid it and keep him? If it's the former, then I would be vehemently against it as the opinions of a vocal minority should not remove multiple classes for everyone playing. But if it's the latter, then I think that would be fantastic, applying real consequences to our actions.

@Baron - If it's not a forced choice though, then you would lose nothing by simply not training Fleshweaver, you just wouldn't gain anything either. Meanwhile, the people who would want to make that sacrifice, could. I understand the perspective of not wanting to have multiple characters to have everything, I'm a collector/perfectionist myself, but I personally don't think that should limit other peoples' choices.



god of chaos -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 14:48:54)

@monservet. Or we might get possessed by Roirr and go through a number of quests, each giving us a skill. In the end we fight off the possession and have absorbed some of his powers in the meanwhile. We would devour Aegis during the time we were possessed, doing so unwillingly of course. Maybe Vaal would actually help us fight (Roirr did mention a "chance for redemption" while reading Vaal's mind.) off Roirr, together with the rest of the Tomix saga cast. That is how I imagine it will go either way.



megakyle777 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 14:59:48)

Of course, the other annoying thing is that for people who choose not to, a entire class of locked off forever because they don't want to eat Ageis. So if you go and do it you lock off three classses and a ally, and if you don't a powerful tier 3 class is locked off forever due to your moral choice. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.[:@]



Ash -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:06:26)

You make that same choice in every other situation. You choose (or can't for other reasons) not to buy a DA, you don't get all the skills on most classes. You choose (or can't for other reasons) not to buy DC's and you lose access to all DC classes. You choose (or can't for other reasons) not to buy a calender you lose access to that year's class. You choose (or can't for other reasons) not to buy DoomKnight and you lose access to that class. This is no different. You could choose to take the moral ground and keep your friend alive and you get the classes linked to Aegis in some way. You could choose to eat him and you get Fleshweaver.



tthorn4 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:10:32)

Hang on a sec, I've been reading through this, and Tomix mentioned this:
quote:

I can make a Fleshweaver class in the future, but you'd have to absorb your only one soulally to unlock it.

Which got me thinking, is Secondus (Or however you spell it) no longer a thing?



WornDogma -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:13:02)

I am against devouring Aegis because I think he is a cool guy. I'm also against it because if the choice is canon that puts an extra burden on the staff to deal with two the branches of story.

I am curious about the mechanics of soul allies. I think that one can be used for everyone of them but I'm not sure.Tomix had been soulweaving with Aspar for years and Aspar wasn't a regular soul ally.Fleshweaving seems literally use(as in consume) a soul ally. I'm not sure if chaoweaving requires a corrupted elemental spirit or not and soul smithing seems to use a regular soul ally as well. A person seems to be able to practice more than one of the mainstream schools as Roirr assumed Vaal was a soulsmith but he chaosweave.I think it is also possible to have more than one soul ally at the same due to in game tomix but he is a unique case.

My final question is can a one soul ally like if Aegis could help us in soulweaving and theorectical soulsmithing.I think it's a yes because Pandora was a chaosweaver and helped Tomix with soulweaving.A few wrenchs in this reasoning are that Pandora was a chaoweaver when alive and for all we know the only school she ever touched as a spirit was soulweaving,I think tomix said that chaosweaver class would get a different soul-ally but that could be for a multitude reasons,and that we haven't heard of anybody using more than one school.



Izumi* -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:15:20)

quote:

There's also something that bugs me. If Aegis is devoured, would that mean he won't really be seen in releases ever again? It's very rarely, if ever that there're releases that bring back characters that are dead or otherwise gone.


I was thinking the same thing when reading through this tread. Good call on pointing it out B. Dante.

I'd assume if FleshWeaver were to be implanted, Aegis' role from that point on would either be greatly reduced to the point of small cameo scenes (like Valtrith's artifact stealing squirrel,) or Aegis would not being included in future releases like Dante said.



The Jop -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:25:32)

I thought Fleshweaver would be a DC class, weird to make it have story implications.



god of chaos -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:26:47)

@WormDogma I think the weaving families involve a spirit ally either way. Used in different ways of course. I am also assuming a soul ally does not quite USE soul weaving, chaos weaving, soul smithing or murking (oh my, cannibal soul allies.) it uses its own power instead. Roirr assumed Vaal was a soul smith because he said he descended from Ovya, which was the founder of the soul smiths, therefore it might have sounded logical to him.
I think chaos weaving has been stated to use wicked elemental spirits, yes. The thing with Tomix is a good question though. Did he have two soul allies, or did he switch them over? Also, a small reminder, Aspar WAS part of Pandora's soul (he was made from a part either way) so does it count as two different spirits?



Alm Nullamors -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:27:21)

Being locked out of a class isn't unheard of anyway. Without DCs, Warriors can't become Rogues, Mages, or the advanced counterparts of those classes.
What we're talking about here is a similar thing.



Tomix -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:31:50)

@The Jop - You are mistaken. Chaosweaver will be a DC class.



Eltar -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:38:53)

@Tomix so the only classes to have a kind of spirit/companion will be SW and MSW?



Izumi* -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:40:11)

@The Jop: If I remember correctly DC, special offer, and promotional classes are non cannon, right? Tomix in post# 43 states
quote:

If it will be in game, it will be canon. If it gets in game.


And at the bottom the linked page (page 2) on he also says, "Once you train as a Fleshweaver, soulweaving as well as any other form of weaving might be locked out. "

Unless it was stated somewhere and I overlooked it. I pretty sure it wouldn't be DC with the way Tomix is talking about it.

Edit: Fixed stuff, and got Ninja'd by Tomix.



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:52:41)

I think that Secondus would be a SoulMinion. (Not a SoulAlly) To change what I said earlier, for my main I'd only consider being a FleshWeaver one its more fleshed out, and if not I'd use it for my second character. Regardless of weather or not you're going to use the important thing is that you would have a meaningful choice, and there aren't many of those that you could make, and making it permanent also makes it more realistic.



god of chaos -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:54:24)

@W.A.R.Z soulminion I believe is a term Vaal uses alone.



The Jop -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:57:30)

@Tomix
Oh, alright. No way I could sacrifice Aegis in that case.



Dragonknight315 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 15:58:08)

I definitely could not harm Aegis... he is an amazing person. While I wish I could respect others decisions, it would be difficult to have ever cut scene afterwords have an Aegis/Non-Aegis version. That's just a big workload on the staff. Plus, I like playing with the lower classes, sometimes. While the gamer in me is allured by the idea of being a Fleshweaver, the person I am is not interested and would prefer it not be an option.



dragon_monster -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class (4/29/2015 16:06:11)

@monstervet That is not trying he saw a dragon and ran away yeah that is not trying in my opinion. Also this makes me wonder if Aegis does not know how the hero's dragon looks.



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