RE: Is magic worth it? (Full Version)

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brotherinlaw -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/30/2015 11:45:04)

@ckdragonck; I must say, I am very sorry for whatever has happened in your life to give you such a dark and pessimistic view of our world. I am truly, sincerely sorry.

@Brasca; Actually, You can get a good idea of how magic would work here from ancient mythos, as any game derives their idea of magic from that. If you look at Arthurian legend, Native American folklore, Chinese stories, Voodoo rituals, Arabian tales, Jewish mysticism, or Greek myths, you see a pattern of complicated rituals, equivilent exchange (the greater the result, the greater the sacrifice), and often communication with good and bad deities or spirits. You could also refer to the more recent Wicca, who combined elements of herbalism, transcendentalism, and some elements of Native American folklore, and Witches, who, for the most part (excluding certain factions) combined elements of spiritualism, satanism or demonism, and, ironically, Jewish mysticism.







P.S. Fun fact, we have Jewish legend to thank for the idea of the golem. If I could do it like that in dragonfable, I'd be unstoppable!



Rezilia -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/30/2015 12:07:59)

^

To add, the majority of rules for magic in fiction are based on real-world myths. The difference between Inner Ether and Atmospheric Ether is the reason why Eastern Fantasy and Western Fantasy are so different, and the concept of ley lines forms the basis for summoning rituals and other magic of the spacial school. It is not that difficult to understand how magic would work in our world if you've studied enough magic theory.



Brasca123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/30/2015 19:29:47)

quote:

It is not that difficult to understand how magic would work in our world if you've studied enough magic theory.

o.O damn it, i should've gotten into magic university instead of history, WHAT HAVE I DONE?!?!?!?!?!?

jokes apart, yeah, i know that most magic in fictional universes are based on irl myths, my point was that, since we don't have magic we can't be sure on how it would work in here, it could be completely different from anything we've ever imagined, or i could just like the myths, we will never know

note: am i allowed to say "damn it" on the forums? i'm unsure, it's hard to know how much is ok for pg-13



solomi123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (11/30/2015 20:27:38)

@ckdragonck
I'm asian and I'm pretty sure that unlike Western magic with concepts like spells and rituals and manas, a coherent idea of magic don't exist here. Sure there are fantasies but most of them are about either gods or spirits and as such unrelated to human.

Closest thing to common magic in Asia that I can think of is ancient chinese martial art that is usually shown in films but tbh I got no idea how those work.

@Brasca
The word "damn" appeared in the game so pretty sure you're gonna be just fine



Rezilia -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/1/2015 1:07:06)

@sol

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Qi/chi/prana/etc is Inner Ether, meaning that it's like the bloodflow of your etheric body. Wuxia combat doesn't work without it. In many fantasy fighting games, regulating your attacks between stamina (physical) and chi (etheric) is necessary to succeed in combat.

Contrast this with the western concept of Atmospheric Ether (now called Mana, even though the original Hawaiian concept of Mana is an Inner Ether) which is magical energy that exists around us in the atmosphere, and can be used to create fireballs, summon things, etc.

The majority of fantasy works focus on Atmospheric Ether and western schools of magic, while A:TLA and Naruto focus on Inner Ether and eastern schools of magic, and Type Moon's works mix the two into one.



master pat -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/1/2015 12:10:29)

This question is a difficult one because it touches on the issue of whether people are good or bad, in that magic, in my opinion, is neutral, which is to say that is is not inherently good or evil, but it is a resource that can be used in limitless ways for any purpose. With that said i would argue that the real issue that the Rose is dealing with is how to prevent irresponsible usage of magic. With the amount of positive things magic and do, and how fun it is, i think it is worth saving. However, the Rose do have a point in saying it has been horribly misused in the past. That is why heros and a fellowship between magical beings is so critical to protect each other, and why the Rose is ultimately undermining it's own goals and will eventually capitulate under the weight of their own hypocrisy.



BraveSirRobin -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 15:52:33)

Like I have said before, I believe that, in the world of Lore at least, magic is neutral. Fear, for example, can be used for both good and evil goals. There are, of coarse, more evil magic types, such as ritual magic, but, ultimately in can come down to this: knives or nukes. What I mean by that is, a knife can be used as a tool, even to the extent of saving, improving or preserving many lives, like most magic reportedly is, or, like a nuclear weapon, it's only non-deterrent use is pure destruction(and even then, it's use as both can sometimes, SOMETIMES, save lives). However, to say that, because both of the implements can technically be used as weapons, capable of great harm and causing great amounts of fear, are evil would be biased and foolish. Obviously, like all things, Lorian magic is dangerous and should be carefully considered and cautiously utilized, but there should not be unbased discrimination against the innate forces of magic in nature itself. Magic can both cause life, and it can destroy it. And as for the question of what Lore would be like if magic did not exist, look outside. There you go. That is nonmagical Lore. With no magic(obviously no Lore because of the magical Avatars, but for the sake of the argument) there would, true, be no Rose, Wargoth, Noxus, Xan, or Sepulchure, but there would be no Fairies, Clawkin, Dragons, Elves, or even Humans.
As long as you subscribe to the theory that Humans are Bacon Elementals. No magical spirits or souls either, though ghosts and such might exist. Sure, without magic, Lore may have united, technology would have advanced, and there would be no threat of the Void seeping into the world. Again though, it would not be very peaceful. Not to mention, the land, sky and seas appear to be sustained by magic, not only caused. It's either one more Earth, or it's an entirely new world, Lore. And also, where do you see muffin tents during wars in real life? Proof, magic is needed.

Anyway, that's my opinion.



s_venom -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 17:16:40)

I think it should also be pointed out that humans aren't the only living things on Lore.
When Rose decided they know best about magic they also decided to condemn other sentient beings to death. The very thing we don't want to happen to us ,they will inflict on others.

This alone should stop us from even trying to mess with magic on this kind of scale.



LurkBlackSmith -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 17:56:54)

Magic is worth it with a hint of great mobility that makes us able to not getting cramps or pulling muscles. Whenever we could use magic to turn to use techniques that make full use of our body's mobility without repercussions of staying in bed for how many days to months to heal those internal injuries.

At least we got wind magic to help out our unfrozen body of 5 years of purely standing up straight and still. That part would be helping out not directly. If we're ever going to try imitating Hugo's skills or get tested by doing the Rose's member last moves without internal injuries or sickness.

The mana hunter's double attack of slicing from below to upward before jumping and that half spin attack. The rose caster's three hit flying combo without the internal organs being not injured by the bones or sheer force of moving too fast. To the rose huntress's ability to retrieve their daggers.



VJ -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 18:47:16)

its like a mage from another game once stated:
"Yes. Even if this technology could be used for the happiness of the people, once it is used wrongly, it may bring unhappiness."

Just replace technology with magic as it does apply(well at least to me).

Or like nuclear technology being developed, yes it was used for war but it now is used for power, however how many are scared of the technology seeing as how dangerous the technology is if turned into a weapon or if there is a meltdown.

because of that fear there has been at least one or two Power plants left unfinished because of protesters, the same can be seen here because of magic being used for evil many seem to have forgotten or fanned the flames of hatred of magic for their own personal and evil reasons regardless of how much good magic can do.

In the end Magic is worth fighting for as there are far more good then evil in the world using magic to help others.



unknownaka -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 20:21:28)

So what if magic is dangerous? So is science. If we completley eliminated magic, it wouldn't matter, because those threats we face would change. Instead of fighting against idk like living plants or maybe an elemental, you'd be killing people armed with rifles and tanks and nuclear bombs. There will always be a threat and if you remove what's causing the threat, in this case magic, instead you'll open up an entirely new threat that could possibly be worse.



Jovan -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/3/2015 22:53:00)

The Rose is a bed of hypocrisy. They complain about magic all day... and then USE magic! Magic doesn't make anyone more or less evil. Magic is used more often for good, in the form of healing potions and protective rings, necklaces and suchlike. It also allows for better infrastructure and communication, without which would leave Lore in a Dark Age. Magic also allows people to be better defended against threats, both mundane and magical. In fact, magic probably makes villains LESS dangerous, since it distracts them with less practical plots, and wards against evil magic are quite effective. Furthermore, you can't just get rid of magic. Lore is a combination of the Elements, which are notoriously magical. Without magic, Lore does not exist. And what are you going to do, enslave sentient creatures because they were born magical? If anything, we should question why mages, who should know magic's importance better than anyone, are joining the Rose.

On an unrelated note, has anyone noticed that all of the Rose's high-ranking mages have severe facial scars and gray eyes?



VJ -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 2:18:17)

I agree Jovan, the entire rose organization are nothing but hypocrites and most are bigots as well. though with an organization like the rose there is no surprise that there will be such people in it.

though I have been persuaded in the past by others that the rose isn't entirely evil as there are pockets of good rose leaders & members within it, however they still want to rid the world of magic because of how it is oh "so evil that it must be destroyed at all cost."








Rezilia -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 4:06:16)

But the Rose isn't filled entirely with hypocrites. In the Sneevil tree base that's in the northern part of Surewood in B3, there's a journal from a mage that states the mages' point of view. They explain that they're using magic in order to study the world and figure out a way to slowly get the world to a point where it doesn't need magic, only eliminating magic after that. The whole thing about draining magic out of magical creatures is one, albeit an extreme, part of this. It's not like the Rose would eliminate all magic in the world without changing Lore to where it can exist as a purely physical world.

Then again, the journal also states how these thinkers are being outnumbered by the thugs in the organization, so that's definitely worrying.



solomi123 -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 4:23:30)

I get that they're trying to use magic to make that non-magic world but really...

...they're using magic for to build it....

Isn't that pretty much the definition of hypocrisy? Really, what are they gonna do when the world finally runs out of magic?



Rezilia -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 6:06:15)

They're just using fire to fight fire. The point is that, once the world runs out of magic, they won't need to be an organization anymore. Plus, bandits in DF currently just use melee weapons, so it's not like the thugs wouldn't be able to keep using brute force.



VJ -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 6:56:17)

Lore's life blood is magic, it is what fuels the very planet.
so by removing magic they will kill the planet and all life on it.



Rezilia -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 7:12:09)

^

Not necessarily. They just have to make it so that it doesn't require fuel. In Lore, one explosion solves everything.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 7:48:52)

Alternatively, they're seeking a new source of "fuel."

Who's to say the elements are the only reason Lore exists? What if beyond the various elements that make up the sky there is a regular ol' mundane sky that does what the elements do without the elements?

Fire would still exist if everything pertaining to fire magic disappeared.



Rezilia -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 7:56:19)

^

Not necessarily. The elements work on an Avatar system in Lore, with the elemental planes now being in disarray. If the Rose found a way to disconnect the elements on Lore from the planes, then theoretically fire would still exist...but as it is now, it can't exist without its plane.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 8:18:54)

So long as someone can rub two sticks together to eventually create fire, it will continue to exist.

And if the Elemental Plane is the foundation for everything, shouldn't it being in dissaray have some effect on the world?



Rezilia -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 8:49:48)

It does have a great effect on the world. We just haven't seen that effect because Book 2 never got finished and the devs have yet to show the effect in Book 3. If I had to guess, that one part of the map with constant tornadoes is probably a result of the Wind plane being out of whack.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 9:48:13)

We did see the effects, or some of them at least. Go play (or replay) the Disarray quest; things are randomly on fire, electricity is arcing for no reason, wind is gusting chaotically, etc. Things have clearly calmed down since then, but it was catastrophic; 'forests on fire, cities flooding and others being blown apart by wind,' to paraphrase Jaania.

In any case, trying to apply real-world physics to this is a non-starter; we have no idea whatsoever whether fire could still exist without the Fire Plane, because DF's universe is not our universe.



LyRein -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 11:05:06)

@general discussion

dragons could easily exist though the fire breathing would damage their insides. if Lore's gravity is lower than Earth's and the Dragons actually follow logic and don't talk like they have human lips they could easily exist.

mostly everything else would not exist.
but the highest tech advanced species would start the Lorian slave trade (my money on the gnomes).

@above

since magic wouldn't exist, the physics of current Lore (elemental planes) wouldn't exist and our physics would have to exist as it is the only known form of things working.

so fire would still be made.
once Lorians master fire, they'll be like us in a few centuries.

@general discussion

of course the competitions between other sapient intelligences would lead to mass extinctions.

humans would survive because monolithic species and us being the only individual thinking species.

EDIT

Science is magic that hasn't been explained.

imagine Leonardo DaVinci's solar ray if it ever was invented in the earlier ages before the Renaissance.
now think of people's reactions or thought processes.



VJ -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/4/2015 11:39:15)

there has been something that I have been thinking about, the only thing immune to any anti-magic things, and that is Death Himself as he clearly has nothing to truly do with Magic. after all many in real life view death as an actual entity as well as ghost that can cause harm to the living so that could mean that ghost & death would still be around and able to cause harm to the living in lore.

Anyways I don't think Lore would survive without magic and all the rose will be don't is killing the planet and all those on it.



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