RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (Full Version)

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Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 15:35:24)

debating is not arguing who is getting upset?

brasca warlic can become wargoth for anything expending his magic is all that needs to happen to say warlic in his youth the young arrogant rule defying boy he is is attacked by the rose to throw him away what do you suppose would happen?

the rose's point is like yelling at a volcano for erupting in fact that seems to be the twin's reason for joining as well. I already live in a world with so many rules choking the life out of everything i can't see the good in constricting nature. also the rose wouldn't use magic how would they even know of a prophecy divinity is magic and lets say they did find out they wouldnt know which one so they would murder all baby dragons just to be sure...so who is in the right obviously not the ones conducting genocide.



Zork Knight -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 15:49:24)

@Dark Lord Urmi: It takes overcharging himself for him to lose control and turn into Wargoth. Fighting the Avatars didn't do that.

The Rose's methods are not perfect, but their core idea is not wrong. Magic is dangerous and needs regulations and restrictions.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 15:52:40)

maybe not but being on the run for the rest of his life might. the only thing i could possibly agree with is if the rose had a full leadership clean out and became the DF version of starlabs magic should be watched and defended against trying to control and regulate something we have a human's understanding of will do nothing but cause bigger calamities...so far the only thing the rose has done right was have a cool uniform.

also want to see everything wrong about the rose just walk from falconreach to swordhaven they do nothing but abuse their powers hiring people to murder magical creatures taking land because a magical beast was on it burning down a house and the people inside because they had enchanted items! this is what it will always turn into.



Edorath -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:00:20)

They did do a lot of good in Amitivayle though, and judging from what geo's hinted at, swordhaven as well. What i like about The Rose is that it's ambigous in nature: A part of it is clearly evil, but there's a good part as well, which could be salvageable. We might be able to help The Rose become an actual good organization, and not a corrupt one.



Dornalca -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:01:31)

I'd still like to know why Jaania thought it was a good idea to freeze our character. Maybe we can ask her that in this quest.



Zork Knight -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:02:46)

@Dark Lord Urmi: THOSE Rose members abuse their power. The Rose members we see in Sulen'Eska (and in the way to Swordhaven) seem to have been written specifically to be puppy-kicking twisted monsters so that we'd hate the Rose. Contrast the Blood & Roses and Sands of Eternity Rose, which is genuinely helping people.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:06:19)

heh all because jaania can't control her own people...a horrible arrogant child. and the "good" rose we see are on the defense not the offence protecting not regulating.



Zork Knight -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:50:34)

@Urmi: There is nothing to defend people from in the Sandsea. Sek-Duat wasn't actively throwing mummies at people.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 16:57:39)

being on the defence does not always mean someone is actively attacking you. besides i was mainly talking about doomwood and the actively thrown vampires and werewolves



LyRein -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:11:41)

@above

You do realize restricting magic and destroying it are two completely separate things right?
So that "throwing knives with roses on them" scenario does not apply.

Also giving blood samples is taking your blood out and people live perfectly fine after it, losing one kidney won't kill you either.

If humans lost their magic on Lore, they would just adapt and advance like us, since most of Lore (gravity, physics) is the same as Earth, therefore allowing humans on Lore to evolve like us, with or without magic.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:15:21)

i already commented on what restriction would do. blood sample is not the same as removing ALL of your blood...removing all of our magic could kill us instantly because the rules are different. also so far the argument for the rose seem to only help humans who may possibly survive without magic based on grasping in the dark, what happens to the ones who cant live without it? only humans matter though right? the fact that so many are on the side of the rose is saddening. and the knives scenario does apply because anyone who is against magic WONT USE IT and the ones who do are hypocrites. cast away your freedoms let your masters give you comfort never question never disobey...




the last thing lore humans need to do is become like us.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:19:58)

Interesting, so we finally get to know where the Fire Tower was (we didn't know that before, right?). Who took away the Orb though?



David the Wanderer -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:28:00)

@Grandpa Oz: I guess it was Akriloth himself.



LyRein -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:41:12)

@Dark Lord Urmi

The Rose use magi in their ranks, we find out bit by bit that the purpose of the Rose is to restrict magic usage.
I don't know where you're getting your facts from.

Given the choice between life or death, magiphobic people will support magic.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:45:57)

yes i know about the hypocrites and the murderous golem maker who leads them, the saga is called END of all magic not REGULATION of all magic the rose has shown what they care about, control. And i cant wait to end them and their ideals.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:46:24)

@David

You're right. I didn't properly remember this line from Demento:

quote:

Demento: Akriloth is now in the possession of the fire orb because of his deception of another adventurer, much like you.


I remembered it as something like "got the orb from another adventurer", but the above fits with the OP.

--------

@Urmi

quote:

And i cant wait to end them and their ideals.


Aww yeah, nothing better than fighting zealots with even more zeal.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:49:33)

i see it more as giving murderers, and slavers, home destroyers,mind controllers what they deserve. at least seppy was honest about what he wanted.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:54:27)

"At least seppy was honest about what he wanted"
Genuinely destroying the world is better than doing so as part of a mistake? Really?

And who gets to decide what they deserve? The best end to this Book would be to put them all into a fair trial with proper defense, and judgement based on the law, not on your personal whim [;)].



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 17:56:46)

at least people know who the enemy is so yes seppy was better id rather be stabbed in the stomach than in the back. say that to the magical creatures already suffering under their rule i think you know what they would call for also who would defend them? there is no such thing as a fair trial when GENOCIDE is involved.

the rose are little more than goose steppers and its infuriating how so many are flocking to their fear mongering ways..the best way to end this book is jaania back in ice launched into space...



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:04:18)

Creatures that Seppy would've instantly killed (well, maybe tortured for fun for a while) and resurrected not only as slaves, but as undead slaves with all free will stolen from them. So much better.
Added EDIT: Of course there is room for trial even for genocide. We do it a lot in the real world.

At least try to properly read Book 3 >_> It's been made more than obvious that the Rose is extremely ambiguous, ranging from genuinely evil characters like Akanthus to genuinely helpful characters like Neron. The Rose covers most ends of human psyche really. I also think that Sulen'Eska has done a really bad job on that part, but that's another story.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:06:41)

a few good people in a bad organization does not make it good. ive replayed everything for like the 4th time now -_- the leadership is full of evil therefore that is what the organization becomes just because finn was good does not mean the rest of the stormtroopers are...Sulen'Eska is the reality behind the promises.

also about the trials how do they always end up?

maybe the seriousness of what the rose represents means more to me because of how closely they represent a certain other group
im sorry you can let the genocide and slavery and corruption go but i cannot.

if the way magic is handled is to change the rose will NOT be the ones to do it.



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:15:37)

Well, we have at the top Jaania (not good, but doesn't like what she's seeing) and Akanthus (evil) and then we go straight to the Magi. To recount them for you - Hansa, Zadd, Neron, Eutin, out of which one is evil. We also know that Saellah was a good character before coming in touch with Akanthus, so you can make a very convincing case that in fact the organization is decent with a small amount of individuals that destroy its decency. Noone is saying that the Rose didn't commit atrocities, and of course these need to be fairly punished, but a chance for a benevolent reform if you ask me.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:17:32)

as i said before a reform can only happen after they "clean house"

at this point jaania is a figurehead like the queen of england



LyRein -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:23:41)

@Dark Lord Urmi

You're seriously saying a (literally) heartless monster is a better person than a human with complex emotions?



Grandpa Oz -> RE: =DF= Design Notes February 9, 2016 - Jaania's Thorns (2/11/2016 18:24:46)

I would generally agree with that. But not the way you propose. Hanging everyone from the next tree doesn't get you anywhere - it just creates new grief. If you actually intend a good end to things, you need to consider the long-term outcomes of actions just as much as you need to consider the short enactment of your sense of justice. That's why you need to expose the wrongdoings and judge them by proper law - because you need to make it clear that you are operating on a better standard than the ones you attack. Anything else (including your proposals) will come over as plain unjust, making everyone believe they exchanged one regime with an equally bad one.



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