matchmaking (Full Version)

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leahnrachel -> matchmaking (7/6/2016 5:06:32)

I posted this in another thread and felt like it needed discussing .

What they need to do is remove levels and ranks, Since they have repeatedly proven they haven't a clue what their doing when it comes to matchmaking balance....

Someone not trained in balance would know 40 levels with only 300 people playing is heavily pushing your luck to balance with only 300 people playing , to then add another 100 ranks is foolish at best incompetent at worst...... Think about this 40 levels 100 ranks - 300 people at best playing its usually 10o-200 .

300 people - 140 tiers of level - madness . Someone not trained would know you cannot have so many levels with such a playerbase population , Its impossible to balance.

How can such bad balance be a thing , When someone who has no experience what so ever in pvp balance can plainly see its lunacy and could never ever be balanced..... How did 100 ranks get in game to begin with , With such a small playerbase? There were barely enough people to balance 40 levels.

This isn't a rant i'd actually like a devs input on the logic behind this decision? Because i'm sure not many can see the logic in 40 levels and 100 ranks with 300 people at maximum playing?



Altador987 -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 10:28:05)

This actually is a rant, and even if it wasn't you're not actually addressing the forum you're addressing the devs/putting them on blast, which, while justified, proooobs shouldve been sent as a pm



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 11:17:14)

Its not a rant at all , Its a genuine discussion, Yes it may seem a little aggressive , but its not meant to be , Its simply factual , Someone untrained would know they could never of balanced ranks before introducing them, And all they would do was hurt the game.

So what was the logic behind the decision to clearly break matchmaking more then it already was?

I mean they must of known beyond question , that's exactly what would happen? If they didn't AE needs to employ someone who knows more about balance.... if funding is a issue remove a paid member of staff , These balance decisions cannot continue.



Lord Machaar -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 11:30:38)

It doesn't look like a rant to me, more like nagging. I've made a return to this game 2 years ago, as a level 35. I faced the same problems you were talking about, are talking about and will talk about in the future. The legendary system was a problem, and even with a dedicated team back then (When devs didn't work on BB), the legendary system couldn't be removed for 2 reasons:
- Déja Vu: Enhancements 2.0 in a nutshell. If you are an old player, you would know that the enhancements removal made lots and lots of players to leave. Sure people paid real money on enhancements, unlike the legendary system, where also players paid money, but invested a lot of time and effort aswell (Speaking about legit players not players with 50k NPCs +).
- Balance problems: The game itself without the legendary system is broken, how does removing it would do the game any good? The problem starts in early levels, where matchmaking is unfair. The problem is way bigger than legendary system. If I start talking about the matter from a 2 years experience (from level 35 to rank 65 while doing PVP battles only), it would take me hours to explain the situation.

The band-aid was the underdog mode, sure it wasn't a big thing, but thanks to some individuals like Ranloth, this band-aid came to life. It's not a big thing, but as we say, something is better than nothing, as when I remember rank 60 players used to face level 38 - 39 - 40 (low ranks), without legendary mode, and actually that was the case for a long time until I came 2 years ago and started talking about it (there were and there are still some haters).

Nagging wouldn't really solve this, if there was something big coming up, it would have been done 2 years ago not now while the devs are working on another project. Sure there is still some hope where devs finish with BB and do a total ED review, but until that happens (in matter of months, maybe years), the game has to survive, at least with a minimum playerbase so when devs come back, they find at least few players to introduce the changes to. How can we sustain players in ED's current state? Features, like the war system, hence why I'm so butthurt about it, since it keeps a lot of players playing including me.

So bashing on other players' suggestions, repeating the same sentences, won't do any good to the game. The devs do realize where is the problem, but to be clear with you, at the moment, they are incapable of fixing it although having solutions in their hands (Detailed suggestions from players not shallow ones from naggers). Players like to suggest stuff, whether getting implemented or not, they will help sustain the small playerbase we have.

I hope your fantasies and dreams come true, and ED becomes balanced, but I assure you, it won't happen in 3 days. The game has been running for almost 10 years now, don't expect a fix in 3 days.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 11:54:11)

I wouldn't expect it at all. To reiterate what I said in a different thread EpicDuel just needs to be retired and rebooted. The flash engine versus the unity engine is just comical and the history associated with this game is not a good one. Even if they made a perfect version of EpicDuel in flash the engine itself is coming to the end of its lifespan whereas nothing has come up to kill unity yet. To add to that a bunch of old players, even within AE, look at EpicDuel with disgust due to its pay2win systems from Beta to Delta.

While it is all fine and good to keep touching up this game it would probably be more beneficial to start looking towards the next game. I know I'm also suggesting more sleepless nights to the devs and I do apologise for that.



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 11:54:42)

The old players are never coming back , The new players aren't staying , The old players still here are slowly abandoning ship.

Why?

Because e the matchmaking is so broken amongst balance in general , The more people leave the worse the matchmaking balance will get , Whats causing the matchmaking to get worse? BEcause the playerbase is getting smaller and smaller and we still have 100 ranks and 40 levels , which the game COULD NOT support at the height of its population....

This CANNOT continue its that simple , the only people playing this game actively in pvp now are the high rankers its evidenced everywhere.

Yes it may hurt the game , may even kill it to remove ranks , But if they don't it may be slow , But this games fate beyond doubt is sealed.... no new players, no old players returning, The oldies still here low ranked slowly getting more and more inactive till they leave .....

It has to be done , the longer they wait the more damaging the removal will be.....


Any suggestion other then this will change nothing which is why I shoot them down, because even if a tournament brought a old player back HUGE IF, Whats going to happen is hes going to play 10 games in a row on his rank 1 against a rank 100 and log out and not bother coming back.



Altador987 -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 12:16:57)

While i do agree that most other suggestions are rather dependent on balance being resolved, the playerbase though small seems to have become steady. Clearly that's not a very pleasant indication but it IS something, so i assume most players are just working with what they've got. Part of me wonders if even posting on the forums is worth it at all (other than venting) seeing as the devs are clearly not considering this game asa priority.

I will say though that going of the original title: matchmaking... they could at LEAST fix the horrid way matches have clearly been one sided and i'm not even referring to lvl 40's. I'm talking 32 & 35 vs 29 & 30 type matches



Lord Machaar -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 12:33:21)

quote:

Any suggestion other then this will change nothing which is why I shoot them down, because even if a tournament brought a old player back HUGE IF, Whats going to happen is hes going to play 10 games in a row on his rank 1 against a rank 100 and log out and not bother coming back.


If you have read the suggestion, you would've noticed that the legendary system is disregarded. But you are balantly shooting down suggestions, not that everyone cares or bothers reading unconstructive replies like yours, but you are only wasting your time and the others' time by repeating same stuff, over and over again. We had a friend called Front45, he pretty much did the same thing, did you witness any change by now? But sure, you can replace him, that will keep the forums a little bit more active.

quote:

It has to be done , the longer they wait the more damaging the removal will be.....

The damage has already been done. The game reached a constant playerbase where each individual knows the consequences of playing the game. Especially after NW's major announcement about the future of ED. http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=22107358&mpage=1&key=�
You are welcome to read it very carefully. It is written by a dev that you've been addressing all your replies and nagging to. It will answer many of your questions and concerns, ofcourse since hearing them from a fellow player like me wouldn't convince you, hearing it from a dev might calm you down a little bit.



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 13:11:48)

I can see people are only interested in themselves (some people) and creating the game they want till the end , rather then trying to stop the collapse


/thread.



Lord Machaar -> RE: matchmaking (7/6/2016 18:12:34)

^ It's not like devs are currently implementing different players' suggestions, making new updates while neglecting balance. War system starts up by itself, doesn't require too much devs time and war prizes are made by the guest team. The game hasn't seen an actual update for months now. Devs already confirmed that they note down suggestions and rank them based on 2 criteria:
- Importance.
- Time/Effort/$ needed to implement it.
Nothing is being implemented now. You are having a panic attack over something that isn't happening. I'm quite sure that when devs plan on working on the game again, they will start with implementing the most demanded and important suggestions. Ofcourse since devs can't be spend any time/effort/$ on the game, we won't be seeing any implementation of big stuff. But if such criteria allow the implementation of much smaller fixes/suggestions/etc... then why not. Something is better than nothing. And in order to sustain the constant playerbase the game has, there must be something to ensure that, as I mentioned before, the war system, maybe the gifting feature, and other mini-features (guest artists' loot even tho they are kinda useless since all of the weapons there are coreless).



Exploding Penguin -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 0:45:08)

In another thread I was talking about maybe just entirely removing the leveling system and adapting to a system where levels/playtime translates only to cosmetics, and a level 1 can beat a level 40 if they play the match correctly. It was more about traansitioning ED to have a more competitive environment like other online competitive games (such as FPS games, or RTS games) rather than the awkward mix that it currently is of online RPG + competitive which isn't really working out. IMO it would be really neat if this transition happened.



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 7:02:47)

I tend to agree with one winged angel . Although I don't think they will reboot the game the game has such a bad reputation now, Its a lot of risk and little reward from a business point of view for a game that is now only netting 200 players mostly, They would be plagued by their reputation, Probably better to move onto another game.

The p2w did do a lot of damage to this game over the beta - delta stage , What hurt them more was in omega they started creating varium only cores which smelt abit to much like p2w for a year , They might of got away with this but to then add 100 ranks breaking matchmaking and making the game overall less enjoyable for the majority of players was a step to far , And the collapse well and truly set in.

They essentially said we're creating omega because we understand p2w was harming the game , Common misconception coming up now the game wasn't doing well in beta - delta it wasn't most think it was, But on the gaming stage it really wasn't, Granted its doing worse now , But that's mainly because they started shifting back to their old habits , What they setout to do with omega was the right decision, Bringing back p2w all be it to a smaller degree was a insult to the communities intelligence, When they went on to add another 100 ranks to a game that was already struggling to balance its fights, It became clear to the older members of the community that the developers had learnt nothing from beta-delta, And they started leaving.

And we have what we have now , Mostly children playing which is highly evident looking around the game and forums, Trouble is you needed the adults to fund your releases and continued development.... But you had to "up your game" frankly , You had a chance with omega , And sadly you failed you went back the wrong direction.

You have made a pvp game that literally cannot be pvped in for the last hardest 10% of levels (36-40) if anyones pvping in those levels I bet they are not doing more then 10 battles every couple of days , This is such a bad thing in a level based pvp game , The best time is supposed to be the end game , And its the worst by far here , It doesn't take a genius to work out why new players are not coming in , The matchmaker balance in general (the core gameplay) is toxic to player retention, Before you factor in any other problems.



Altador987 -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 7:31:34)

EP can you link that thread? You've peaked my curiosity



Exploding Penguin -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 15:02:51)

I sifted back through a few months in the suggestions forum and I couldn't find it. If you ask Cyber Dream, he might have it though since he was the one that initially started hte thread.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 16:35:38)

I also looked for it but the idea, as EP already stated, is to adopt a kind of ladder system for EpicDuel so that there are less match making ranges for the population to fill and instead your skill or abuse or builds of the month determines your match making range so you are meeting like skilled opponents.



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 16:56:42)

a post I made in another thread that again seems relevant to this thread.

a rank is a stat point in some cases with diminishing returns a rank is 2-3 stat points , every 4 ranks is a levels worth of stat points and you can face someone lower level and multiple ranks beneath you, you do the math........i'll give you this bare minimum not including npc ranks are worth 60 stat points , even more in cases of diminishing returns , at best under dog gives you 20 stat points , give me a break lol.....

And BEFORE you say it yes ranks don't give you the stats so the underdog with max underdog has a 0.1% chance more then he would of had to block you deflect you . crit start first etc...... but you still have ATLEAST 40 more stats worth of ranks then him.... probably 50-60 even 70......its just trash saying underdog is op.......lmfao

However I wholeheartedly agree ranks AND underdog need removing

And underdog only helps you in 1v1 all it does is lessen the gap, the underdog is still going to lose badly against a opponent that knows how to play , because the higher ranked player has all the advnatages mathematically a HUGE advantage that is almost impossible to come back from . Its seal clubbing mode , not legendary mode.....its lunacy it was ever put in , and its even more broke in 2v2 .

A high ranked player vs a low ranked player the higher ranked player is taking 30 less damage every turn and dealing 30-40 more damage , turn one the higher ranked player takes 30 less damage and deals 40 more damage , There is now a 70hp difference in the battle ,, turn 2 the higher ranked player does 30 more damage and takes 30 less the difference is now 130hp, the longer the battle drags out the more the advantage stacks for the higher ranked player , making the underdog player have to go for a quick kill build to stand any chance what so ever, Making underdog worthless as it will only really benefit the underdog on one stat , Its just garbage, complete trash.

Funny little side note : my protest against ranks continues [:D] I keep updating this is posts here and there . PvP was so broken as I hit l36 I did something I hadn't done in 36 levels or leveling either of my other 40's . I started npcing , At level 36 I had 38 npc wins , I am now level 39 with 1166 npc wins :) , Almost all the xp came from npcing for 3 levels since pvp wasn't playable [:@]



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 17:19:57)

The problem is underdog and ranks can't exist side by side in their current form. Underdog address a long standing issue with EpicDuel and that is the power gap between levels. Ranks create a different form of that same level gap.

To expect underdog mode to address two very different issues with the same cause you would either need a much more robust system or to remove one of the two causes and fine tune the system to address the remaining problem in a more accurate manor.

The easiest solution would be to replace all PvP benefits from ranks and replace them with cosmetic advantages and grind reductions so that underdog can be tuned to address this like skill point differences and weapons modifiers. I say that's the easy solution because the other option would be to rework how leveling works entirely. Preferably with something like what was described in previous posts



Lord Machaar -> RE: matchmaking (7/7/2016 21:36:03)

quote:

A high ranked player vs a low ranked player the higher ranked player is taking 30 less damage every turn and dealing 30-40 more damage , turn one the higher ranked player takes 30 less damage and deals 40 more damage , There is now a 70hp difference in the battle ,, turn 2 the higher ranked player does 30 more damage and takes 30 less the difference is now 130hp, the longer the battle drags out the more the advantage stacks for the higher ranked player , making the underdog player have to go for a quick kill build to stand any chance what so ever, Making underdog worthless as it will only really benefit the underdog on one stat , Its just garbage, complete trash.


This was said by me, pretty much 2 years ago, when I was a level 35 and before the underdog mode was introduced and when max rank was 60. I'm now a rank 65 and still confirm what I said 2 years ago. Underdog mode is not that big of a help, but it does give some advantage before players reach the ranking system, hence why everyone can play PVP from level 36 and below.

Ask for some tips and tricks on how to farm/bot NPCs from our pro cheaters in-game, anyone with 20k 30k NPC wins will give you some tips. If players with 50k/100k/150k+ NPC wins got away with it while earning HUGE advantage in PVP, and if devs didn't replace captchas with something to stop botting, then as far as I'm concerned, it is legal. You can rank up pretty fast, around 10 ranks per month. (In case you do 100 NPC wins each day on PH = 2400 EXP, so basically in 3 days you can rank up, in 30 days, you got your 10 ranks, and in 3 months you are a rank 30 where PVP is playable again. Ofcourse you can minimize that timing to 2 months if you mix it up with some PVP battles or EXP boosts. I mean no wonder we have so many NPC botters, the game encourages you to bot.)



Cyber Dream -> RE: matchmaking (7/8/2016 0:08:51)

@EP

Is this the one you're referring to? Click



Exploding Penguin -> RE: matchmaking (7/8/2016 14:25:55)

@Cyber Dream

Yes, thanks. Just the thread I was looking for.



nowras -> RE: matchmaking (7/8/2016 17:58:05)

ED needs a huge revamp. Well, actually, we need EpicDuel 2.0 or EpicDuel Zeta as NW said.
The developers will have to actually, finish their BB project first. After they finish it, they should start working on ED 2.0 or ED Zeta.
ED 2.0 or Zeta shall not be a different game. It shall be ED but, on unity. All our accounts and progresses must be transferred to that game, so that old players come back since it was a game they played in the past and made a huge revamp and it's available on mobile so, there's no effort in trying to check it out.
If old players return, it will increase the player base. If the player base increases so fast on Google Play for example, ED 2.0 will be marked one of the best new mobile games which will bring a lot of new players to play it.

ED unlike AQW, doesn't need to be a 3D game and since 2D games on PC aren't played a lot, people don't play ED but, there're a lot of 2D games on mobile or 2.5D games like Clash Royale and Clash of Clans and even 1.5D games like Color Switch and so on. People tend not to care too much about the dimension or the graphics of the mobile game but, they tend to like the idea/the way you play the game and I bet if ED does what I say it's player base will become way huger than AQW and AQ3D combined.



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/8/2016 19:20:05)

As much as I would love to see a new ED

I think realistically from a business point of view it wont happen the name epicduel is a source of hatred..... This is fact not fiction , Years of bad balance and poor decisions have got this game a horrific reputation , bad decision after bad decision , that's not to say they cant recover, but they would have to repair what they have now and rebuild their reputation , Which I don't think from a business point of view makes much sense either.

But to start a new ED, It would be plagued by its name the reputation it brings with it. They would be better off starting a entirely new game, And honestly staying away from pvp its not their area of expertise clearly.



nowras -> RE: matchmaking (7/8/2016 19:46:23)

If old players ever see ED's name on the App store for example, they would install it instantly but, if they see any other name they wouldn't really care.
So, your point of view is actually, wrong.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: matchmaking (7/9/2016 2:04:18)

I would have to disagree with people not playing a lot of 2D games on PC. And instead of making an argument here is a link to games with the 2D tag on steam and their respective owner count



leahnrachel -> RE: matchmaking (7/9/2016 7:25:08)

Most people left this game for one of a few reasons

1)p2w
2) balance matchmaking everything else
3) the devs repeatedly making the same mistakes and learning nothing from them , enhancements -ranks , agility - underdog , I could go on but I sense my point is received on this one
4) trying to charge AAA prices for a game that's core gameplay as always been broken, and they've progressively made stuff worse, This is a little harsh . They did start going the right direction with omega but then made a u turn and started drifting back the wrong way.

My point I don't think enough that have left would give a game with a epicduel title another chance not close to enough to make it a viable business project atleast.

Speaking as bluntly as possible the ED staff are not sufficiently qualified to run a pvp game, and clearly they haven't got anyone in from AE, better their next venture is a pve game.



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