RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (Full Version)

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liger98 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/1/2017 23:54:16)

@ Lv 1000

1. Even though Riftwalker is an offensive class, the near 100% defense for the move Realm Change shouldn't be removed. It's a two turn defense that allows Riftwalker to dodge stuns. With that being said, this near 100% defense move should be applied to all classes. Otherwise, it becomes near impossible to win against opponents who stun a lot. Sure you can talk about strategy and whatnot but I don't think people would care to use classes that can't defend a simple stun. I don't understand why out of all the Aetalean classes, Cryptic got the MPM and not Ascendant or Riftwalker (I'm assuming Ascendant is BDP; I'm not an Ascendant). You say that this issue "doesn't really matter" so I counter: If it doesn't really matter, then switch it back.

2. In your post, you said something about investing in LUK. I'm no expert in stats and I have read about the "crit boost" that 200 LUK gives you. I don't really know what that means but I do know that if I put on my Helm of Everluck which is +25 LUK, crit only goes up by 1 (compared to without wearing a helm at all). I know this isn't conclusive but it does offer some limited insight on the effects of LUK.

3. Correct me if I'm wrong but Riftwalker relies on crit. That's what the Bonuses are for ... aren't they? I don't really care about this as much as I do about the defense tbh.

In summary, this patch didn't change my play style ... I mean Riftwalker play style isn't rocket science: Pound with heavy moves in the beginning and pray that the enemy dies before your bonuses run out. There's really no other option. This new patch completely killed Riftwalker in my opinion; Riftwalker lost quite a bit of its offensive capabilities yet did not gain enough boosts in its defense to make it a defensive class. This isn't a change in play style; its a complete nerf on all aspects of Riftwalker. I don't want to make this so centered on Riftwalker since I'm quite sure that this patch killed off some other classes but I'm most familiar with Riftwalker and it serves as a good example.

EDIT: I really hate the argument "You guys need to change your play style" since it leads to a slippery slope of getting everything nerfed and people saying "Oh, well, you just need to change your play style." Frankly, I've never used a class that I think needed extensive nerfing (I'm not a DmK so don't use that against me) in DF. For the most part, classes back then were way stronger than their successors.



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/1/2017 23:59:29)

3rd line of the design notes.
quote:

As with all major changes, more minor changes and updates will be added according to feedback and necessity.

I'm giving it some time for things to play out, but things might change. So if something is actually really bad, or if some things don't feel good to play, then I WILL make an effort to fix and correct them.



Roc -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:05:13)

Okay Verly, thanks for taking responsibility!



Lv 1000 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:10:20)

quote:

1. Even though Riftwalker is an offensive class, the near 100% defense for the move Realm Change shouldn't be removed. It's a two turn defense that allows Riftwalker to dodge stuns. With that being said, this near 100% defense move should be applied to all classes. Otherwise, it becomes near impossible to win against opponents who stun a lot. Sure you can talk about strategy and whatnot but I don't think people would care to use classes that can't defend a simple stun. I don't understand why out of all the Aetalean classes, Cryptic got the MPM and not Ascendant or Riftwalker (I'm assuming Ascendant is BDP; I'm not an Ascendant). You say that this issue "doesn't really matter" so I counter: If it doesn't really matter, then switch it back.


You do realize that Riftwalker's shield wasn't even touched, Block/Dodge/Parry was. So basically you're asking Verlyrus to completely revert the MAIN change of this patch just because you can't dodge stuns anymore. If you want to be constructive, ask for Riftwalker's shield to be changed to Melee/Pierce/Magic.

quote:

2. In your post, you said something about investing in LUK. I'm no expert in stats and I have read about the "crit boost" that 200 LUK gives you. I don't really know what that means but I do know that if I put on my Helm of Everluck which is +25 LUK, crit only goes up by 1 (compared to without wearing a helm at all). I know this isn't conclusive but it does offer some limited insight on the effects of LUK.


All classes (except Cryptic I believe) received a 25% nerf to crit DAMAGE not chance, having 200 LUK makes this only a 5% crit DAMAGE loss. LUK is not primarily used for crit chance and I did not say anything to this effect. Additionally, the effects of LUK are known and documented:

quote:

Luk - Luk/25 boost to hit chance, Luk/20 chance to avoid attack, Luk/20 increased Crit Chance, Luk/20 to damage.




Roxas45 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:13:22)

Hey, playing the weekly quest and going by my usual class: the Death Knight.

Um... Lowered damage, and criticals getting through a block skill..
While the block skill as such for a DK deals with dodge and all, the crits getting through is kinda tiring.
Not to mention the high mana costs...


I've been reading some of the comments so far regarding fast hitting classes like the rift walker and so on and I have to agree with them.
I am taking longer to kill monsters than I normally would, and with the same mana cost.
The only way Im somewhat able to maintain the older levels of damage, is with the Reap ability.

Beyond that, Im seeing some more usage in defensive classes as such, but am still slightly concerned about bosses (necessary for storyline purposes) such as Doctor When, Wargoth, and even the various bits and pieces of Smudd.

I feel like there needs to be a Kingdom Hearts BBS option: Dodge roll/Cartwheel/Slide everything.

EDIT:
Sorry... It may seem like Im complaining but I dont mean any harm.

with reduced crit damage, it does feel like overall damage has been reduced quite a bit. Now I wasnt online when the monsters had defenses, as mentioned in an earlier post, so I cant attest to normal damage loss. But the DK final skill and the Ultimate DK Strike do seem less powerful. As usual, the first right skill (game currently frozen and isnt unsticking so I cant check) and the life steal skill combination works like a charm at bloodletting... But the high mana cost does still bother me.

and the un stick button is taking a trip from the void in a tattered vessel from eons gone by I see.



liger98 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:22:08)

@Lv 1000

I should have been more clear. Actually the "switch it back" was more colloquial and it really was not a good phrase to use. Yeah I meant switching the Defensive Move back into 100% negation which would under this new update switch BDP to MPM.



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:23:29)

@liger:
quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but Riftwalker relies on crit. That's what the Bonuses are for ... aren't they? I don't really care about this as much as I do about the defense tbh.

Riftwalker relies on Boost (flat damage increase) not Bonuses. Since RW's passive increases Boost unlike Cryptic which relies on Crit.
And the Bonus stat is responsible for the hitting the target.

To add, MPM is unchanged unlike attacking which now rolls on 180 instead of 100.
MPM and BDP were doing the same thing that's why we have this update now. MPM has a cap of 100 whereas BDP had a cap of 200.
To compensate for MPM and BDP doing the same thing (hence having more chances to negate damage), attacks now roll for 180 instead of 100.
While we have a slightly lower chance of negating damage, we have BDP to reduce incoming damage.

@Roxas:
Crit was nerfed a little bit because it can bypass BDP.
The new quest in the Swordhaven have higher MPM mobs compared to older mobs.



Caesaris -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:29:58)

Riftwalker seems stronger now (as far I can realize).

Gonna check the other classes now, and I must admit: this update is great.

Edit: QUESTION! If we block/parry/dodge partially a stun attack, will we be stunned?



Lv 1000 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:33:32)

Unrelated to the current conversation but here's Cryptic vs. Theano, The Thorn (with like no editing so :/) on the new patch, just to show off the merits of BDP (not self-advertisement, AK's dun keel me)



LouisCyphere -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:36:40)

@Caes:
Yes, because we only reduce damage.

v@Cas:
BDP can reduce DoTs?



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:37:25)

quote:

Edit: QUESTION! If we block/parry/dodge partially a stun attack, will we be stunned?


Yes. Debuffs as well...

Also, now looking at ninja... it is weird now that it has 2.5x crit damage. Like... I actually have no idea how to feel about it. To be fair for this update... I actually don't mind this update to ninja.



Baron Dante -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 0:42:42)

So, I haven't exactly had a chance to test the changes out in practice, but I do have some queries on the changes.
Firstly, the LUK Crit damage increase:
Does it round down?
Like, do I effectively get 0,01 extra Crit damage for each 10 points of LUK, or so I get 0,001 per 1 point in LUK?
It's a small difference, but it makes a difference in properly minmaxing, as you could potentially save up to 9 stat points if it's the former.

Secondly, (And all of this comes from the viewpoint of an endgame player, so it may or may not apply to most players) the MPM nerf (And potentially BDP in general), I feel, has a bit of an issue to it. Previously, you could get 81 Magic resistance (And less for the others). That would, under ideal circumstances, translate to ~80% damage reduction, without taking anything else into account.
With 180, that same number would fall below 50%. (~45%)

I want to put this into a bit of contrast. Resistances can get up to 50 against anything (You can get 50 All resistance at most currently). That's essentially 50% damage reduction, again, in a bit of a vacuum.
So, one of the three defenses can be, at best, close to par with basically any resistance, with most of them being much better. The only thing MPM would really have over resistances here is on-hit nerfs, and potentially not hindering your healing.
Now, I don't think there's any problem with resistances as they are now (And considering they weren't changed, it seems Verly would agree), but they illustrate the point that MPM was nerfed a bit too hard to be worth it. I'm not sure how well BDP stacks on this front, but it has it's own share of issues like being unable to shield you from stuns at all, which even resistances potentially do.

I do want to stress the point that primarily, resistances are supposed to either kind of happen naturally while you focus on something else, or as a specialization tool, where you focus on a specific elements, and for normal gameplay, that's not exactly a viable strategy, since you need literally dozens and dozens of items to do it right. But because All resistance can go as high as it does, that can make it not a specialization tool, and with MPM being nerfed, it's now a very viable option.



Sflamin -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:01:36)

Why does some skills with 100% chance to Crit feel so much weaker now? I have a total of 240 points in LUK which means my Crit hit damage should be 1.99x damage so it shouldn't be reduced that much compared to before. Hope someone can verify this.



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:05:01)

LUK is down to 0.01 crit per 10 points.

Yep, my own impression after seeing the changes live for a while is that I may have hit defenses a bit hard.
I plan to go through and change most defense skills to MPM (other than some specifics).
It felt good in testing against small monsters, and against bosses without stuns, but the stuns are a pain.
It's a pretty long undertaking though- we have a LOT of classes.

180 rolls felt good in testing, but it's proving problematic in practice.
I'll probably reduce it to 120.

I think crit is in a good spot though. If you invest fully in a damage stat + LUK, I think you end up at basically the same place as before, damage-wise, which was my goal.
If that's not happening, then that's probably a bug somewhere. Like, it's only reduced by at most, 1/8th, so if there's a super significant drop, then something's up.

Thank you all for the feedback, and keep it coming!



Andlu -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:15:43)

Yeah I guess that the MPM roll being at 100 was pretty much okay, not so sure why it was given such a nerf of making it at 180


Verly, could we please get the formulas for BPD?



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:19:12)

quote:

Yeah I guess that the MPM roll being at 100 was pretty much okay, not so sure why it was given such a nerf of making it at 180

Because avoiding 80% of incoming damage, then ignoring another 50% from resists is passively avoiding a TON of incoming damage.
But eh, it doesn't affect most players if I keep it how it was, while it does affect most players if I nerf it. So I'm going to reduce it and just make even more evil challenges.

@v
+0.01 to the multiplier. In terms of percent, LUK increases your crit damage by 1% per 10 points.



Lv 1000 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:19:13)

quote:

LUK is down to 0.01 crit per 10 points.


Like 0.01% ? Because 0.01 crit per 10 points of LUK is like ... nothing........? Very confused



Baron Dante -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:20:23)

120 sounds pretty acceptable imo. Going with the Magic numbers again (Melee and Pierce would love to get some items that only boost them by a considerable amount btw, just to catch up with Magic), it's about 66% at best. Definitely not an unstoppable walking fortress, but it's at least a fortress. That walks.

Yeah, I actually agree that Crit is pretty decent right now, at least as far as I could tell (Again, no testing, I uh, I have to spend time updating my spreadsheet with all this new info). And I have to say, I like the idea of classes having potentially higher Crit damage and all that. Gives more variety for the kinds of builds you want to run depending on the class. Cryptic and especially Ninja got a huge boost out of that essentially. (Well, Ninja also got some nice buffs even without it, so...)
...I wish a certain other class would get a buff too, but I guess that's not here or there. :P

quote:

Like 0.01% ? Because 0.01 crit per 10 points of LUK is like ... nothing........? Very confused

Nono, Crit damage. For every 10 points, your crit multiplier goes up by 0,01.
Without Crit, you're at 1,75. On a Crit, you deal 75% extra damage. For each 10 points, it's 1% extra to that.



Andlu -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:20:44)

@verly


That is right, kinda forgot that they would stack at this point

Doesn't a 66.667% chance of avoiding damage, with a 50% resistance later be better? I mean we're not gonna be able to keep like insane 80 MPM all the time without going lacking in the other parts, so yeah



TimelessLord -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:21:33)

Hey just wanted to say love the new update also is chaos-weaver ever gonna be a class maybe? cause that would be some good stuff there



Greldracion -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:24:00)

So what classes are being considered to be switched back to MPM shields if I may ask?



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:28:56)

I'm going to make an effort to convert every class shield to MPM.



Andlu -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:30:57)

Could we possibly get the BPD formula for the reduced damage verly? Couldn't find it anywhere in that post



Lv 1000 -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:32:21)

quote:

Nono, Crit damage. For every 10 points, your crit multiplier goes up by 0,01.
Without Crit, you're at 1,75. On a Crit, you deal 75% extra damage. For each 10 points, it's 1% extra to that.
'

Sooo basically the same as 1.75 + LUK/1000 (what was stated in the DNs)?

*1.75 base --> 200 LUK --> *1.95



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= DragonFable 14.1.0 Discussion & Feedback (9/2/2017 1:33:32)

quote:

Because avoiding 80% of incoming damage, then ignoring another 50% from resists is passively avoiding a TON of incoming damage.


By that argument, shouldn't that kind of logic apply to MPM as well? Since you can avoid 100% and still able to passively avoid 50% from resists... With the 80%, it would only effectively make it 90% while MPM at least is still just 100%. I know BPD is going to be an attempt at making it all more consistent. While I have my grievances that it will just be redundant, I can at least hope a good attempt has been made.

As the crit multiplier being "down"... is it now still 1.95? So nothing actually... changed.

@Below: The 80% comes from BPD...



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