RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Artix Entertainment Games] >> [AdventureQuest Worlds] >> AQWorlds General Discussion



Message

Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/5/2019 10:19:38)

I got Pisces going on Discord last night, and I tried to talk to him about the all-over-the-place AoE on EDC, and his argument was that the class is fine as-is, that consistent AoE would make it into "just another" farming class, and that the way the class currently is, it is at least unique among AoE classes, when I tried to argue that it being "unique" is pointless if it is not a useful class, he argued that the class is useful, just not optimal...

Seemed like there was no getting through to him that a certain class meta does exist, and that in its current state, nobody is going to use EDC over almost any other farming class, with even Scarlet Sorceress, a non-seasonal class that is quite easy to get, being superior to it in its current state.

He did mention that he was going to look into making the class long range across the board, but I frankly would have prefered a "No damage boosts, full AoE" version of this class at this point.



G Man -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/5/2019 10:37:47)

So, I saw on twitter that the "new" Dark Caster (A TIER 2 CLASS) is going to suffer the same "balancing" as Sentinel, and I just.... will not be using the class at all.
Taking extra damage in a game where there's not a whole lot of group healing (because most classes have self healing now....) is not fun, or balanced.
(Yes, we don't know how high the DoT is, or how much mana the skill will restore, but we do know that the damage boost is only a measly 10%)
Yeah, Harbinger/Soul Cleaver can hit like a truck, but you can also use something like LDMK to hit hard and also easily survive.
Yeah, Sentinel has decent damage, but you also take DoTs that are frequently in the hundreds, basically causing a double damage debuff to yourself.
(The heal cannot even keep up with the self DoT most of the time, BTW. That's a huge issue)
(Sentinel needs a ton of work, imo, it's not even a "fun" class to use for memes, and challenges, it's just a waste of inventory space)

No, if it's a "tier two" class, it should be powerful, and not require a detrimental effect (or possibly multiple ones) in the name of "balance."

Also, that's the lamest excuse ever Veya.
Guess EDC (and its variants) will continue to rot, because Vampire Lord is a thing, and is easily accessible to everyone (when it comes back around, that is), and at nearly any level...

Misread the tweet, my bad.



pitties -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/5/2019 10:54:17)

uhhh, dark caster is tier 1, not tier 2. The tier 2 class is a separate thing that will be released later.

And anyways, I like how they are keeping the spirit of the original class when reworking it. It would be really lame if they just gave it OP skills with no thought for flavor, and changed how to class fundamentally works. As it is, very few classes have mana heals (elemental dracomancer, timekiller), and I always thought self damage and mana heals were interesting mechanics.

And I think youre misinterpreting what you read. The original dark caster had 10% damage buff and a self-dot. They weren't talking about the new version, that's the original skill and they were asking for feedback on possible buffs.



G Man -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/5/2019 11:21:49)

Yeah, misread the tweet, my bad.
Also DC has a self DoT, and mana regen?
God, it's been YEARS since I last used it....
....
A yup. Level 55 enhancements....
Jeeze, where does time go?



Elemec -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/5/2019 13:06:49)

Oh well, I guess EDC will end up just being the "odd" farming class. I'll replace it with Vampire Lord when it comes back, so until then... I'll be using it. Makes me a little sad since even DBSK (which is another "odd" farming class) has 2 skills with 3 targets to hit and the same range. Really hoping they change mind about this.



you stop -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/6/2019 0:29:30)

quote:

being "unique" is pointless if it is not a useful class
If I were to agree with your take on this then anything Tier 3 and below in my list would be labelled as "not a useful class". Hence I'm going to list every single class that I think belongs to Tier 3:
1. Void Highlord - regardless of what you think, I don't think Void Highlord should be in anyone's top 5 farming classes. I'm convinced Daimon would be taking top 5 if the other four would be Shaman, BB, AA, and VL.

2. Paladin - I don't need to explain this.

3. Master of Moglins - definitely a competitive class but not too good to be in top 5 either.

4. LightCaster - I also do not need to explain this.

5. ShadowStalker of Time - Variable. Not many can use it to make it good enough to sit on Top 5.

You may have noticed I keep mentioning Top 5 when the 6th place class could be just as useful. Well no, apparently not. I will explain down below.

quote:

Guess EDC (and its variants) will continue to rot, because Vampire Lord is a thing
Guess I could let every other farming class rot since Shaman is a thing. I'm with Edme on this. There's no point asking for this class to be metabreaking. There's no point for any other class to be released to be metabreaking. Just because a class is inferior to another doesn't exactly mean it's "useless" or instantaneously "bad". It is not good, I would agree, but that doesn't take away its merits. I'd take Pisces's argument to be valid.
quote:

he argued that the class is useful, just not optimal
If we were to take this to its extreme absurdity then I would probably delete/sell every farming class I have in favor of Shaman. I don't care if some of you cannot use this class as effective as those who can. I don't care if you think Blaze Binder or Vampire Lord is better. I have better farm speeds on Shaman therefore every other class is useless. Now you see how this trend will go if others were to claim that X Class is better than everything Y Class, same way that G Man just did.



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/6/2019 1:51:35)

But that's the thing, I play like that, the reason I don't use Shaman over Vampire Lord is because Vampire Lord performs best with Luck enhancements(also the fact that I never grew out of being obsessed with vampires and VL is my favorite class thematically... but VL is also top tier enough that my bias isn't harming me, and why I use it over AAS), so it synergizes well with VHL/CA/SWoT/EC/AP/SC and it means I don't have to swap gear/enhancements to use different classes, just change the class itself, the fact Shaman is Wiz-based when every other top tier class is Luck-based means Shaman is inconvenient to me, so it's not my pick for AoE class.

Even then, I don't want EDC to be "top tier", I want it to be convenient, and it's not convenient that if I am on a group/public room(which I usually am for a new release), the 1/2 target skills means I cannot get that lick on a monster to get credit for a kill before someone else kills it, it's not convenient that the lack of range on the 3 means that it is functionally a 1-target skill most of the time, it reaches a point where I am not just killing slower, I am not killing at all, and that's what makes the class so inconvenient that I don't even want to try using it.

I also have a feeling you *super* twisted around what Edme said, Edme is asking the exactly same thing I am asking, for the class to be convenient, not top tier...



Banpreiomaster -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/8/2019 21:44:14)

Guys, how about the performance of Immortal DC compared to the new LDK?



G Man -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/8/2019 21:55:10)

Welp, overall Immortal DC is.... a class.
It performs fine, but it just doesn't feel good, you know?



Banpreiomaster -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/8/2019 22:05:28)

@G Man: Could you give me more details?



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 1:11:57)

I actually heard that Immortal DC surpasses LDK in performance, and lands shortly bellow LC, I haven't tested it myself quite yet, but it does feel very powerful.

It's also very simple to use, just stack your 1st skill(your 2) 3 times while spamming your 2nd and 3rd skills, use your 4th skill, this will give you a chunky Haste buff that will allow you to reach Haste cap, stack up 1st skill again, then 5, keep the loop going until target dead.

There is probably a more efficient combo/loop than this, but it is very simple to use regardless and still very powerful, and it makes me hopeful and excited for what the T2 DC will be like, if the Tier 1 is already this good, will VHL have found its match outside of Chronos? I hope not, I like making fun of leejun, but I will be happy regardless.



zanathos -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 6:54:53)

So they buffed the Dark Caster skills for Immortal but not for Dark Caster? What sense does that make? Who would want to keep the worst version of the class?


Going to go on the record and say i love what they've done with the boosts, much more so than Evolved Dark Caster, I just which those boosts were also applied to the original Dark Caster, because I'd love to be able to wear that class to differentiate myself from the people who just bought Immortal, I appreciate the free class however.



G Man -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 8:02:34)

I mean it's not a bad class, not by any stretch, it just doesn't FEEL good is all. I can't really describe it.
Maybe after I play around with it more I'll have a better feel, and like it more.



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 11:03:42)

After testing Immortal DC myself, I have to say rumors of its power were greatly exaggerated.

It's definitely a good class, don't get me wrong, it has decent amount of DR going for it and it's a pretty decent soloer, if I had to guess I would say about on par with Glacial Berserker in power(maybe a little lower? I am running on eye-o-meter here, not on proper numbers), which is really good consideing how god awful OG DC was before, it really is an update that made a previously objectively bad class into being pretty decent and feels very nice to use, which is nothing more than I could have asked, and it's a buff that *almost* makes me want to let go of EDC.... almost.

The one thing is that the class is currently bugged, the DNs stated that the rank 5 passives were meant to give it 15% Haste and 15% Damage, but those passives read as only 10% each, I don't know if it is only a text error(that the passive actually gives 15% but they forgot to update the tooltip), but those 5% are important, as the class reaches around 46% Haste at level 90 with full Luck(which has proven to give better damage potential than full Wiz), and those 5% would allow the class to reach the perfect 50% Haste.

Either way, it seems that ADC really is the best out of the Dark Caster classes, at least until T2 DC comes out in May, if anything the only issue ADC faces is being AC-only, and that LDK is better than it(when taking in account damage boost weapons) without costing ACs.

@zanathos

A similar thing happened between EDC and Infinite DC last week, where they legitimately forgot to update EDC with the new buffs and updated it later, there is a good chance the same happened with OG DC, considering a few skills of Immortal Dark Caster have "Test - " on their names...



zanathos -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 11:50:18)

@ Veya: I thought the same, except for this little tidbit in the design notes:

quote:

If you have the original Dark Caster Class, you will get the Immortal Dark Caster Class for FREE. You'll also get to keep the DC skills as they were first designed on your original class. (For those of you who want to keep it old-school.)


I can't possibly fathom the logic in keeping the truly horrible old dark caster skills on the original class when they didn't do that for the Arcane nor the EDC buffs.



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 15:50:10)

Hm, I guess I didn't see that, but since you get the class for free, and you get the class armor as an actual armor now(finally), there is no real harm, is there?

It may be something about the class team liking to maintain variety in the game, and there being absolutely no harm in doing so, similar to them keeping "Classic Soul Cleaver" in the game when it is such a god-awful class that it is probably the only non-meme class that has an objectively awful rank 10 passive(literally randomly kills you at no benefit), so much so that it was the only class in the game you were advised to stop ranking at rank 5.



Foulman -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 19:18:43)

this is great, I missed EDC for BM and now I can have both. Hopefully they can bring BM, BMA and LBMA skills back next year for those who missed them. Also kudos to AE for listening to the playerbase and bringing old skillsets back, as well as giving them a good polish



Edme MacHeath -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/9/2019 19:27:56)

quote:

If I were to agree with your take on this then anything Tier 3 and below in my list would be labelled as "not a useful class". Hence I'm going to list every single class that I think belongs to Tier 3:
1. Void Highlord - regardless of what you think, I don't think Void Highlord should be in anyone's top 5 farming classes. I'm convinced Daimon would be taking top 5 if the other four would be Shaman, BB, AA, and VL.

Void Highlord is possibly tied with BB imo. It easily beats everything in 2 target situations, honestly if you need to single out a small non boss mob, its even the best/most consistent at doing that, pretty much guaranteed 8-10k damage in like 2 clicks. But if it comes to extremely high HP mobs, BB kinda hits a problem where VHL doesn't.
They seem overall very close everywhere IMO, but BB actually has guaranteed AoE damage/nuking where VHL is stuck at single target. So I guess BB would be better than VHL but going by your next comment, neither should be top 5.

quote:

If we were to take this to its extreme absurdity then I would probably delete/sell every farming class I have in favor of Shaman. I don't care if some of you cannot use this class as effective as those who can. I don't care if you think Blaze Binder or Vampire Lord is better. I have better farm speeds on Shaman therefore every other class is useless. Now you see how this trend will go if others were to claim that X Class is better than everything Y Class, same way that G Man just did.


By that logic SSoT is better than BB or VHL. If we're talking raw numbers, it tends to leave both in the dust.
Problem is to achieve it's DPS it's very execution heavy. In a sense the player is required for consistency because on paper it's not a very inconsistent class with guaranteed crits and +80% hit chance during skill 5.
But player execution makes everyone get results all over the place.

SSoT ideally would be just behind VL and AA in terms of overall dps. BB wouldn't even be a top 5 class.

(Honestly it passes AA for extremely extremely high HP mobs, but then again that's only really because it gets to DoT nuke multiple times in which it passes AA by a small margin. The more times it gets to do so, the more it passes. (Yes I am aware the DoT is single target, but the DoT is big enough from AoE skill one, it pretty much kills whatever target it hits in the first DoT and then kills the next and you don't even really need to fully charge the next DoTs.)

In this sense, SSoT is able to be a top 5 class under the right hands while BB is top 5 if you're not gonna care enough.

I think you can use BB, SSoT or VHL and you won't be missing too much in results regardless of execution, you'll get different results but they won't be too far apart that you're dropping like a whole tier or a noticable amount of placements downward.
I've found without me optimizing SSoT whatsoever and just using it in a basic sense where i use 5,4, 2, 3 or whatever simple combo works best without trying to absolutely do things with perfect timing, I got about 10-15% slower results than BB.

I don't that's honestly significant enough for either of the 3 classes to matter and i've posted my BB and VHL timings in the past so we all know they're pretty neck and neck, with perhaps BB by a margin.



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 10:09:01)

Okay so, some numbers on ImDC I pulled together, as well as accompaning numbers with LDK for comparison purposes.

Immortal Dark Caster, Full Luck no Boost Static Spiral Carve, vs Avatar of Life (209,894 HP).

01:29.04
01:25.47
01:16.89
01:32.59
01:39.45
01:26.70
01:29.24
01:48.28
01:41.14
01:47.26

Average: 1:33.60

Legion DoomKnight, Full Luck no Boost Static Spiral Carve, vs Avatar of Life (209,894 HP).

01:07.42
01:17.95
01:11.16
01:20.91
01:08.41
01:22.62
01:13.59
01:07.15
01:07.45
01:06.32

Average: 01:12.30

And here's what I can say about the class:

The class is extremely punished by misses, the best way to use it, I found, is simply to stack your 2 to 3 while spamming 3 and 4, hit your 5 for the Haste buff, rinse and repeat, but here's the thing: both the 2 and the 5 can miss, if 2 misses too often, you can't loop your haste, if 5 misses at all, you will be punished with greatly lowered DPS for the next 15 seconds, if you miss your 5 repeatedly, it's just the pits...

As a counter point, if the class gets no misses at all, it will be actually really close to LDK, you can see how my best run was 01:16.89, which is really in the ballpark of how well LDK performs, in fact, I feel the the class would be quite excellent if it had got 15% hit rate instead of 15% Dodge for its rank 10 passive, a hit rate boost would just tie the class together really well, but for how bad OG DC was before those buffs, this is a massive improvement, going from one of the worst non-meme classes in the game to where it is now, it's a great buff, so perhaps the hit rate boost would just make the class too good for what it is supposed to be.

And the reason I am comparing it to Legion DoomKnight... is purely because Legion DoomKnight is the go-to Legion class, so if you are the hyper leejum fanboi who just loves all things blue, black and skully, and wants to show your support to daddy Dage at all times(and I totally mean a leejun fanboy would mean "daddy" like that), those are the classes that are going to look into, which makes LDK the class Immortal Dark Caster is in *direct* competition with and the most likely class it will be compared to.

@zanathos

About OG DC, I actually decided to ask Pisces about this, and he explained the main reason OG DC kept its skills is the fear from Rare hunter backlash, there was a backlash already when Alpha Pirate had its skills changed, simply because some Rare hunters really hate that their rare items are touched at all, even if it is meant to be an improvement, and considering OG DC is a class with similar level of exclusivity to AP(the original DNs for the class claim that under 4000 players ever had access to the class since that's the amount of people that bought OG DC armor, period), he felt that not touching the class at all and just giving OG DC owners ImDC for free was the best course of action.

Granted, in the same conversation, a Rare hunter I know chimed in and complained that he hates that he has to bank the rare class(OG DC) to use the seasonal class(ImDC), so this really feels like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for the class team, and people will complain literally no matter what they do...



XeNON_54 -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 10:37:41)

When are they gonna fix the weirdness of EDC/LEDC/InfDC/IfcLDC skill AoEs?



G Man -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 11:00:13)

Likely never.
Apparently it makes the class "unique" or something...



Banpreiomaster -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 11:14:02)

@Veya:
Thanks for your information. Guess I can save my ACs for now :D



Stronius -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 16:01:08)

@Veya
Those tests are really useful information, but isn't ImDC ideally supposed to use wizard enhancements? I remember a while back tests were done on Lightcaster, where using full luck instead of full wiz significantly lowered it's DPS. And seeing as literally every skill on ImDC is magical, I can't help but feel like your results would be even faster.



Veya -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 17:02:29)

The class was returning longer times with Wiz than it did with Luck, which I can only think is to blame for a lower hit rate, since the class is punished so badly by misses, and Luck plainly has a better chance to hit the target(and keeping in mind this is a non-issue for LC due to Illuminate boosting hit rate among other things), the "potential best" for the class is definitely better with Wiz, but RNG dictates it is very difficult to get that "potential best", specially in longer fights.



Edme MacHeath -> RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread (3/10/2019 20:45:39)

Which is better UOK or DoomKnight now?

I think they both might be somewhere between GB and LDK in tier now. I know people haven't talked about UOK for a long time but I think both it and doomknight have high enough DPS that GBs ability to heal isn't too much considering both classes solo bosses with relatively high HP before they eventually die.

(Technically UOK can still go the healing route if it needs to sacrifice damage and it's tankiness in that is actually quite good.)

I feel like I would never use GB over either. If I have to fight a boss over 200k HP before UOK likely dies, why would I use a class as slow as GB to do so? I mean the only reason you'd do that is if GB was your only good soloing class and it's barely one spot above StoneCrusher's DPS with awe.

DoomKnight struggles with high damage bosses, but it also leaves GB in the dust often. I mean even at it's lowest, it still has comparable DPS.

So wouldn't that put both over GB in tier? How often do you fight higher HP bosses? if you do it's either stupid to use GB anyways because you're better off gathering a group or picking a better class, or forced to pick a better class because it might be a challenge boss in which none of the 3 except maybe UOK could survive.

So technically I guess GB isn't worse in performance in every way, but it's worse in results in more ways than it's better than DoomKnight or UOK. You really just need to manage resources more.
I think it really becomes a similar situation to using blazebinder over shaman or using something other than SSoT, in which you suffer using a slower class because you can't be bothered to manage the faster one.


I mean the only other thing I can think of is that UOK is rare and DoomKnight is Member. But for actual positions I do think they're better than GB.
I think it's fair to include doomknight as fair game if people are including paladin and daimon in tier lists for farming or even Master of Moglins.
SSoT is rare now too. So i think UOK is fair.





Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition
0.125