RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (Full Version)

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brotherinlaw -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 15:06:14)

oh, thanks, I was unaware of that. I only get occasional things from Tomix's page, so I didn't realise the Chaosweaver was non-canon. kind of weird for the class trainer to have a canon and non-canon class, but whatever.

And all the same about fleshweaving, I think I'll avoid that rabbit trail. depends on what Tomix wants to do with it, storywise, I guess.

Edit: Also, forgot to mention, I have one issue with Chaosweaver: The walk cycle. The animation looked good on the previews, but in-game it looks so janky. the skip-step doesn't seem equivalent to the speed your moving, and watching the animation can make you a little sea-sick after awhile. I'm not sure if this is the finished product you were looking for, or if this is the early version of the walk-cycle you cobbled together for the class preview, but you probably should work on it a little more. I think you were going for creepy and ethereal, not nausea inducing.




rater202 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 16:12:29)

Playtested Chaosweaver. Don't think it's for me.

Wondering how much overlap it's playstyle will ave with Fleshweaver(though as always I'm waiting till I know exactly how absorbing Aegis is supposed to work before I commit to it or not) butthat's a discussion for another time.

I'm curious as to where this storyline is going. I wonder if it's gonna turn out that the Avatars aren't the good guys here? Rage against the Gods!

It'd be cool, at least. I'm not sure if that's where it's going, but I'm suspicious.
spoiler:

espeicially since one of them was clearly going to say that they bring change when explaining why they're evil and




Frigus -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 16:41:44)

Chaosweaver is the most glass cannon class in the whole game as far as I played.

I liked the update better without the soulthreads because it makes it a much more viable threat in combat. Single combat at least. Having three enemies will cook your goose pretty easily if you're not careful.




Axpower -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 18:53:43)

Oh my. Chaosweaver is absolutely amazing. The animations from Vaal.... finally. Huge props to the team!

I do believe the walk animation may be an issue though. Other than looking kind of glitchy, I ran into a bug while playing through The Archives. After finishing the miniboss, I can't seem to ascend the staircase. Character sticks to the right side...




Wink -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 18:59:26)

Holy crap I cannot express how much fun I'm having with chaosweaver. Just so well done in every bit. Only big issue I have is the walk animation is gonna give me a seizure, and it has some weirdities in getting stuck places slightly in walls. Biggest issue I encountered with it was on the quest "The Oasis Inn" I couldn't walk to talk to Sha'Rae as the animation would send me back a screen. Overall the design and Class features are nothing short of amazing. Keep up the good work.




Lycius Zero -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 19:54:12)

Note to self: donīt walk to borders of the way or the screen using Chaosweaver! [:@]
I canīt finish in Servants Hall and others dungeon quests




LurkBlackSmith -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 20:43:34)

spoiler:

So when we go back into the dream space, are we going meet somebody else far more shameless, angrier then us, and the malerous Remthasis will still get punched in the face over and over evenly it recovers and even punch the dream avatars faces?! Evenly ***** this person still will punch Remthasis in the face! >:3




Nifertx -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 21:59:12)

...this might be one of the best things I've seen this year!!

Immensely interesting malerous (so very odd and memorable within a single quest!), lovely character interactions (hero's vulnerability + Uuanta backstory puns), beautiful new monthly weapon, and the thrilling edgelord that is Chaosweaver. With the boost to riftwalker earlier this month, it's even more of a treat. Can't wait to get my hands on the finished class [:D]

The class looks quite nice with a scythe compared to a sword (particularly last month's DC scythe), but I do have to agree that the CW walking animation is a bit much, maybe more suited for solely combat movement.

Looking back in the design notes for a comparable release, I've seen that this year has been the one to finally reach out into Azeveyr for all of its unique wonders, and what an impact that has had (in addition to the enrichment of plotlines at home).
Huge props to the devs, for this and how far DF has progressed!






hammerfyll -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 22:13:01)

quote:

With the boost to riftwalker earlier this month, it's even more of a treat


Whoawhoawhoa. What boost?




Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 22:46:26)

The riftwalker boost now starts at 50 instead of 25. And the final attack now deals more damage depending on how many boosts are gone.




everett910 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/14/2019 23:16:44)

If this quest made me feel anything, it's that at least this Maleurous the avatars are right about,
spoiler:

nothing good comes from kathool except his armor....


speaking of armor the new chaos weaver armor is amazing(for now it could be changed in the future) with guests like rhubarb and Mazurek to lower chance to be hit, and the vanilla katana special...after many attempts I was finally able to use my luck to fell an inn boss that gave me a lot of trouble
spoiler:

the unraveler
(managed to use gambit twice in the last match), though for solo quest farming the riftwalker still wins out.




Axpower -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 0:47:51)

Anyone have any idea how much CW is going to cost? DC classes are usually 1800 but I don't know, inflation? I only have 2k DCs ready, hopefully it won't cost more...




maxlimmy -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 1:46:36)

really like the chaosweaver but the walking animation is really bad, not sure why it needs a flashy effect.




The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 3:21:07)

I love this week's release and think that Chaosweaver's animation looks amazing. In terms of game play, Chaosweaver seems to be dominated by Soul Gambit, that is that the damage when Soul Gambit is not active seems to be lackluster. I understand that as Soul Gambit is so powerful, then the other skills with 200 boost would be too strong, however I think this could potentially be fixed with a special passive and a few tweaks. For example, say the passive is:

- Each skill gains a boost equal to the percentage health missing from the hp bar, except for when Soul Gambit is active

Other changes I can think of are:

- Have Soul Aegis' duration extended to equal to Soul Gambit i.e from 2 turns to 4 turns
- Have Soul Gambit apply -200 M/P/M and B/P/D defence and decrease the All reduction to 4 turns (down from 8 turns)

By doing this, Chaosweaver will be able to do decent damage outside of Soul Gambit shenanigans and there will be synergy between Soul Aegis, Gambit and Siphon. The -200 M/P/M and B/P/D defence on Soul Gambit means shenanigans from Bk3 Aegis, baby chimera, pet dragon and (pre-nerf) not-so-tiny-bubbles can't take place. Also with the -200 M/P/M and B/P/D defence on Soul Gambit, not-so-tiny-bubbles could be un-nerfed now, a lot of classes used it as a crutch to make them viable in the inn.





Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 3:25:53)

Whats this about a tiny bubbles nerf?




Roxas45 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 3:26:14)

Just wanted to check.. Is anyone else having the issue when roaming around falconreach, where if they enter into a dialogue with an NPC (that doesnt have a pop up thing like Ash, Twilly, etc), that they're unable to move to the rest of the screen? Not that they're continuing the dialogue, just that they're not moving anymore after exiting it.

Also, I read somewhere that there was an update to the class? What update would that be? I didnt see it in the notices (may have just been that I hadn't noticed.)




The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 3:44:48)

@Kurtz- Basically some people on the discord were talking about how they would mitigate Soul Gambit's negative aspects by using shenanigans like shields from guests, baby chimera, pet dragon and (pre-nerf) not-so-tiny-bubbles. They also said they would use Hexing Wheel to loop not-so-tiny-bubbles, despite Hexing Wheel not affecting trinket cooldowns, neither now nor the first version of chaosweaver last night, and also people on the discord were randomly spamming about a secret M/P/M build for Chaosweaver. All in all, bubbles got nerfed from -50 bth to -10 bth.
Also chi bomb was nerfed as well, but it's still usable.

@Roxas45- The DN's contain information on the latest skills for chaosweaver, but here's a useful link to chaosweaver changes timeline:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZwHUaQKowzfiHUoxMWKFO-oH_htpCh0vg6p-aoixC7A/edit#gid=0






CelestialBaconWeaver -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 4:00:32)

quote:

But the actual answer is, the reason CW is non-canon is that real ChaosWeaving (using a corrupted soul ally, not the technical ChaosWeaving definition of Edelia that's just "using weaving in battle") is unambiguously and unavoidably morally corrupting. Being linked with a corrupt ally corrupts the weaver over time, and so far as we know the only way to avoid that is to purify said ally (i.e., rip their soul apart like Pandora) in which case you wouldn't be a CW any more.


I dont think being morally corrupted means that a concept would have to be non-canon. We've seen with the Doom weapons( which are canon) that the hero is getting slowly corrupted more and more by the doom as we level up the weapons (a la the weapon's description) I'm not debating whether Chaosweaver is canon or not (It does make me sad that its not), I'm just saying that it's possible for the Hero to be in possession of items that are capable of corrupting them. To a lesser extent, the player stays in possession of the Mysterious Stranger's cloak before it's stolen from us by Valtrith, and we've seen that its pull is strong enough to convince the Hero to take it, regardless of our choice.




ergotth -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 4:31:38)

I think a viable walk cycle for CW that is still good to watch could be running in a similar pose to epoch, (but without the arm flailing, please xD) while the steps leave small red ripples (similar to Ascendand) with maybe a trail of soulthreads. But I would keep the original walk during fight, since many skills such as the auto attack and others that have you walking towards the enemy have this walk cycle, and obviously in battle it won't cause any issue.




Ace Woodlink -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 7:24:32)

quote:

All in all, bubbles got nerfed from -50 bth to -10 bth.


Might as well delete it from the game for all it's worth now. (Spent hours grinding for that for a Pirate build, too...)




Dratomos -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 8:09:39)

After using Chaosweaver, I must say, I like it a lot. The animations are so good and skills are very interesting to use. Great job Dove and Verly, after waiting this class for 6 years, you didn't disappoint!

And the Friday the 13th quest was great. Even if I wanted war, since I want to farm DM and gold and in wars that is so easy. But we will get another friday the 13th in december and we got a war in may, so it's not that bad. It's good to know that Maleurous saga goes forward, but we still know how it fits to the timeline.

spoiler:

I also liked Remthalas and that he has connections to Kathool Atchoo. Nice callback for Water Orb saga. I still remember how excited I was to fight Kathool when the final fight came, over 9 years ago.




blowthemandown -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 12:12:24)

Man, that blink-walk animation is ugly. I'm almost afraid to take it on a longer quest, for fear that I might damage my eyes. More importantly, I'm getting some weird glitch where none of the skills work. They all just say 'skill locked' when I click on one of the boxes, and I can only use the basic attack. What gives?




TFS -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 12:40:11)

So after another day of playing around I think I have feedback that's a bit more specific.

Rebuke is way too strong and encourages really degenerate play. I feel like I did a decent enough job communicating this earlier but forgot to include a demonstration so here. I think being capped at 12 statuses (780%) is incredibly high given that the class on its own can't put that many statuses on itself and there are few if any enemies that can make up for the difference - I don't feel like being rewarded for slapping on all this gross stuff is the kind of gameplay that should be encouraged. The actual damage isn't in line with the class's other skills, either, considering they're all moderate-to-low to make up for Gambit's damage buff being so high. Outside of Rebuke, your strongest skill (Assault) is capped at 502% damage and requires you to take a huge risk in lowering your health to the point where you're almost dead - There is no risk at all in using Rebuke, and the reward is much, much greater.
Obliterate feels kind of like a filler skill that got carried over from Corrupt Doom Epoch but has no particular use on Chaosweaver. A 1 turn stun isn't particularly great on a class that you definitely don't want to be stalling with - especially now that Soulthreads are gone and there's no reward for stalling a turn. This is of course assuming the enemy can be stunned at all, which the vast majority of endgame enemies can't. The animation and sound effect are really fun, though, which is kind of a bummer given that they're on a skill that isn't particularly useful lol.
While Soul Shred definitely fits with the class thematically, I don't feel like a dedicated finishing move really has a use on a class geared towards hyperoffense. You're going to be ending fights with Gambit-boosted damage - ALL your skills are finisher moves. I don't think there are too many situations where a class geared towards fragility and high damage will need a dedicated autokill to finish off an enemy that's already severely weakened. You either kill it or you don't - Soul Shred doesn't really match what you're trying to accomplish with Chaosweaver.
Vengeance is kind of similar to Obliterate in that you don't really want to be stalling with this class. In the rare situation where Gambit's damage buff has expired and you aren't already dead, there's definitely a case to be made for trying to stall, but even if that comes up -50 Boost on a single target isn't going to save you. While this would certainly be a very useful skill on a more neutral or defensively oriented class it doesn't really fit the goal or playstyle you want to be accomplishing with Chaosweaver. The high hit count for proccing a weapon special is more useful than the skill's actual effect.
While Untangle is going to be your best skill for turn 1 damage (assuming you go into the battle with full health), it's overshadowed damage-wise by both Assault and Rebuke despite being a Final. It doesn't have any utility now that Soulthreads are gone, either. This is definitely a minor nitpick not on par with the above stuff and I've already communicated this in my earlier post, but I feel like there should be some reward for using your Final or at least something to make the skill stand out. I said this earlier, but the extensive duration of Gambit's debuff is a weakness you try your hardest to play around and I feel like giving the Final some synergy with that would be really neat.

All that aside, this is still a very fun class that's already managed to carve out its own identity. Like I've said in prior class threads I love the sort of risk-vs-reward design mentality that most of Verlyrus's classes have. It encourages resource management and strategic forethought; in the case of Chaosweaver the resource is the amount of damage you've taken and thus how close you are to losing. Surviving an attack by the skin of your teeth and then ending the battle with a massive counterattack is exciting! It's close! It's fun! You're on the edge of your seat! I've already said this but the synergy between Gambit, Assault, Aegis, and Siphon makes up the core of the class - like an actual Chaosweaver, you live on the edge. You come close to death by your own doing, in turn boosting the effectiveness of your own skills. Chaosweaver is already exciting, unique, and very enjoyable to use - that's why I felt compelled to write out two long posts of feedback that hopefully are helpful in determining balance haha. I'm definitely loving the class already.




Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 12:55:51)

Can someone clarify how Aegis works? The description says resist death but the bracket says fatal damage is halved. So if I have 10 HP and the enemy does a 100 damage attack do I not die or take 50 damage and die?

Also I'm not sure how to beat enemies that have too much HP to kill through 1 round of Gambit and do a lot of damage.




TFS -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 12:58:20)

It prevents direct attacks from dealing more than 50% of your remaining HP, meaning you'll asymptote towards 1 HP (at which point you'll take 0 damage) and can only be killed by indirect damage sources like DoTs and damage reflects. In the situation you described you would only take 5 damage. It works the same way as Bound Fate and Wind Orb Drakath.




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