RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (Full Version)

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Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 13:05:13)

Can I take the chapsweaver to the orb of savings and save? So I can keep this armor without the DC?

And when will the permanent version of this armor be released? Previous testing for other classes have usually had the actual release a week of 2 after.



TFS -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 13:07:23)

You cannot save this class as it has not been officially released yet.
The release date has not been announced, but as you yourself said testing usually lasts two weeks.



rater202 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 13:48:55)

And since we're finally getting Chaos Weaver, that means that Fleshweaver shouldn't be far behind.

Anyway, on the canon discussion since I did'n t comment on this.

Chaosweaver probably isn't canon becuase, well... I'ts a True Chaosweaver. Not the technical Chaosweaveing that the PC already is.

That means bonding with and drawing threads from a Corrupted Spirit. We probably could have become True Choasweaver... IF we werren't already canonically bonded to Aegis. There may not be room for another spirit, and honestly with the Sheild Animation beign using Aegis as a human shie;ld(and implicitly shunting damage into him) the fluff for Chaosweaver may involve severing our connection and then enslaving him, which would be OOC for even the worst interpretation of the character.

Or, if you choose to become a Fleshweaver, Secudus could refuse to partner with you out of self preservation. Chaosweaving is soulweaving with a corrupted spirit andsoulweaving invovles bonding your soul to another soul.

fleshweaving invovles absorbing other souls into your own.

Even if the Fleshweaver PC had no intention of betraying Secundus, Secunsus interfacing his soul with ours could result in him getting eaten by accident.



LurkBlackSmith -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 13:58:28)

So the other malerous taking action during the holidays...will one take action during the celebration of Falcronreach's rebuilding and Swordhaven's annual uh parade?



joglaze -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 17:03:37)

Why did they have to touch not so tiny bubbles? Time to go on a break again I guess



Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 17:19:11)

I mean no one should have to depend on or need tiny bubbles to win. I have never used tiny bubble for any Inn challenge and beat them all.

I agree that making tiny bubbles -10 bonus make them basically useless but it should not affect your ability to beat any enemy, only make fights easier.



Chewy905 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 18:27:20)

@Kurtz96
Don't you also tend to use Dmk for every inn challenge? Of course you don't need NSTB when you're using the most broken class in the game...



Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 19:27:34)

I have also beaten all the challenges with other classes (BSW, ranger, Atealan etc) but that isn't the point.
The point is that if your strategy fails with one nerf to one skill then it could probably be better. I don't think there is any enemy in the game where if you don't use tiny bubbles or DmK you can't win.

Relying on tiny bubbles is like using Dragon slayer against Trigoras, a situational and linear exploit against a specific enemy; not a comprehensive and flexible game plan suitable for all situations. The inn challenges reward you for finding unique/different equipment, but you should not be dependent on them.
ie: fragment blade makes Uthuluc easier, but you could also change to a class that boosts crit, or update your equipment to be offensive, or reallocate your stats (which is only 1000 gold now). You should not dependent on the fragment blade.



Jeune -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 19:44:31)

What I have found with the Chaosweaver class is that the attack power on it is very high, but the survival rate on it is a little lower that what one would want. But that is what makes it fun, the idea of the timing for the boosts is very important so that works great. Of the things that I would like to see changed one would be the movement animation, it has glitched the avatar into places or into npcs that prevent any further movement causes the user to either log out or to leave the quest or area in order to get out of said spot. Second would be the ability Soul Gambit, it does have a great damage boost, but the lack of defenses in the build are slightly alarming for such an attack based class. Most attack type classes have something akin to a sheild that boosts defensive stats whereas the Chaosweaver has only the aegis to defend themself. Maybe add in a light defense buff with a moderate damage attack that has a semi long cooldown. This would not only preserve the attack based theme, but also boost the survivabilty of this class a little more.



The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 20:01:55)

I think the point that's being made is that the loss of NSTB makes various classes less viable in the inn and in some cases outright kills certain strategies e.g. beast master pirate. What I don't understand is that bubbles wasn't nerfed because it was overpowered, it was gutted because of

a) Discussion of shenanigans to mitigate Soul Gambit's negative aspects e.g. shields from guests, baby chimera, pet dragon, (pre-nerf) not-so-tiny-bubbles and zardburgers
b) Saying that Hex Wheel could loop NSTB despite Hexing Wheel never affecting trinket cooldowns
c) Random spamming about a secret M/P/M build for Chaosweaver

The nerf to NSTB doesn't really deal with the cheese mentioned in (a), as you can still outright avoid getting hit when Soul Gambit is active, so the nerf to NSTB was pointless except for making various classes less viable in the inn. The best way to avoid the cheese with Soul Gambit is to slap a -200 M/P/M and B/P/D on it and make a few other tweaks (mentioned here ).



Kurtz96 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 20:11:03)

Oh I agree that the NSTB nerf was not good and should not have happened. I was just making the point that if this one item not existing ruins your strategy then it probably was not a very good strategy.

quote:

What I don't understand is that bubbles wasn't nerfed because it was overpowered, it was gutted because of

a) Discussion of shenanigans to mitigate Soul Gambit's negative aspects e.g. shields from guests, baby chimera, pet dragon, (pre-nerf) not-so-tiny-bubbles and zardburgers
b) Saying that Hex Wheel could loop NSTB despite Hexing Wheel never affecting trinket cooldowns
c) Random spamming about a secret M/P/M build for Chaosweaver

Has this been confirmed? Cause I find it very unlikely that the devs would nerf an item just from theroy-crafting and what is essentially ****posting.Hun, guess it was. Who knew individuals had this much power.

Will the nerf be announced somewhere? Cause i didn't know about it.



TFS -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 21:37:50)

Bubbles was certainly problematic in its prior state; almost loopable -50 Bonus is already a very strong defensive skill on its own. Trinket skills are very easy to make overpowered, as they can be slapped on to any class in the game, present and future; a skill like NSTB that's already very strong can be used to patch up defensive flaws that classes like Chaosweaver or Dragonwarrior are intentionally balanced around. While the series of events that lead to it being nerfed was silly, the nerf was overdue nonetheless. That being said, making the skill completely useless is kinda overkill, just upping the cooldown would have been better imo.

quote:

The nerf to NSTB doesn't really deal with the cheese mentioned in (a), as you can still outright avoid getting hit when Soul Gambit is active, so the nerf to NSTB was pointless except for making various classes less viable in the inn. The best way to avoid the cheese with Soul Gambit is to slap a -200 M/P/M and B/P/D on it and make a few other tweaks (mentioned here ).

I feel like Gambit is something that's supposed to be difficult to play around, not outright impossible. Like I said before, I feel the duration and lack of mitigation are a bit too harsh and should be poked (or at least have Aegis's duration poked or something). Of course, having to rely on a trinket skill (or the excessive reliance on pet dragon's shield, which I don't think has been mentioned here yet) rather than something the class is equipped with on its own isn't something that should be encouraged and you're certainly in the right there.

quote:

Hun, guess it was. Who knew individuals had this much power.

One of the best things about DF (and arguably AE as a whole) is that the developers take player feedback very seriously and do their best to make their players happy; ideas and opinions posted on this board and on Twitter have historically been listened to as well. That being said, an unofficial Discord server's low barrier to entry, high activity, and lack of regulation often leads to informally announced changes that a third party (hi) has to relay to official platforms such as this forum and the 'pedia; this isn't a super hot situation and is the biggest reason these forums haven't been too active this past year, but it's the direction the playerbase has chosen and the developers have followed accordingly. Policy is as accomodating as it's always been, it's just the playerbase's platform that's changed.

anyway can we go back to talking about chaosweaver please and thank



Nessa Ellensse -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/15/2019 23:27:23)

just did the friday the 13th release and that was strange



The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 0:46:27)

NSTB isn’t overpowered, if it was all classes would be using it universally, but this isn’t the case, not a lot of classes even use NSTB in the inn, only a few use it to be viable in the inn e.g. beastmaster pirate. The following are more problematic and overpowered, especially as they can often be used consecutively, shields from guests, baby chimera shield, pet dragon shield, and zardburgers. None of these have been hit. These will definitely be used by Chaosweaver to wombo-combo any boss into oblivion without the fear of retaliation. I’ve also never seen a dragonwarrior build use NSTB before and I doubt Chaosweaver would have used it either.

As far I’m concerned there are 2 ways to use Chaosweaver:
a) Without cheese: Use the skills naturally, and then finally use gambit as a finisher towards the end. Probably suboptimal for inn.
b) With cheese: Immediately use gambit and use shenanigans to completely avoid getting hit, then blow up the boss with your wombo-combos. Will be busted and be meta, certainly against single target bosses. Vulnerable to indirect nerfs.

@rater202- Even though DC classes aren’t canon, you’re still free to add your own headcanon onto them. For example, my headcanon for GPS is that the hero’s head got decapitated and fused to a squat-thrust machine.



dragon_master -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 2:56:56)

What even is a "beastmaster pirate"?

NSTB was OP, now it's UP, top kek.



Ace Woodlink -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 3:04:28)

I'd understand scaling something back because it's overpowered while keeping it viable. The nerf to NSTB isn't this; it's just gutting it to unusability, on top of being yet another stealth-nerf to anyone not in the Discord server, yet another one that I have no control over in a single-player game I play.

It's just awful feeling.



TFS -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 3:11:15)

quote:

NSTB isn’t overpowered, if it was all classes would be using it universally,

No? That's not what overpowered means and directly contradicts what I said earlier - it can be used by offensively oriented classes to easily bypass weaknesses that the classes are balanced around, completely ignoring the fact that it further boosts already defensive classes by a significant amount. And even if the assertion that "overpowered = everything uses it" wasn't completely ridiculous to begin with, the vast majority of meta classes did indeed use it for one or more builds and several weaker classes (GPS, Guardian, TimeKiller) relied on it exclusively as a crutch BECAUSE there was no other way they could be usable.

quote:

not a lot of classes even use NSTB in the inn, only a few use it to be viable in the inn e.g. beastmaster pirate

...Cryptic, Ascendant, Pyromancer, Kathool Adept, Baltael's Soulweaver, Ninja, Shadow Walker of Time, Archivist... "I do not use something because I do not understand its potential" does not mean "Nobody uses this thing because it is not good."

quote:

I’ve also never seen a dragonwarrior build use NSTB before and I doubt Chaosweaver would have used it either.

I personally have used NSTB Dragonwarrior to clear the entire Exaltia Tower (in fact, I changed from Mage to Warrior for the explicit purpose of being able to use NSTB DW) and if you've actually been reading the posts you're responding to you'll know that NSTB was literally nerfed for the EXPLICIT REASON that people were using it on Chaosweaver and the ability to so easily get around its vulnerabilities was deemed overpowered.



EdyMaster -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 5:03:42)

I also think NSTB deserved an adjustment for being "too good", but the way it was done really made the item useless now. The item just needed an adjustment, either a slight reduction in its effect or a slight increase in its cooldown, but after all it received a massive nerf that ended up with it. Another item that needs to be adjusted is Chibomb, it should stop taking into account boosts and resistances of the target to be balanced in my opinion.



The Betrayer123 -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 8:33:00)

I am absolutely buzzing this class is finally coming out. I've been a long time player of DF since I was a kid, dropped off a bit for Book 2, but the range and depth of the current story lines in Book 3 have had me hooked. I love the Weaver-type magic and think it's an incredibly original and fun concept, so Chaosweaver being released will prompt me to buy my first DCs since I was in school. Love the hyper-offensive nature of the class and the fantastic animations.

Only issue at present is getting stuck in walls when walking around and having to restart, but I understand this is the testing phase so that minor niggle will be ironed out. Definitely will be buying this one!



The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 9:43:11)

@Dragonmaster- Type in Lord Arugula in YouTube and he'll show Beastmaster Pirate

quote:

If you've actually been reading the posts you're responding to you'll know that NSTB was literally nerfed for the EXPLICIT REASON that people were using it on Chaosweaver and the ability to so easily get around its vulnerabilities was deemed overpowered.


No the reasons it were nerfed were the following:

a) Discussion of shenanigans to mitigate Soul Gambit's negative aspects e.g. shields from guests, baby chimera, pet dragon, (pre-nerf) not-so-tiny-bubbles and zardburgers
b) Saying that Hex Wheel could loop NSTB despite Hexing Wheel never affecting trinket cooldowns*
c) Random spamming about a secret M/P/M build for Chaosweaver*

I'm also sure the guys talking about (b) and maybe (c) were on their mobile and weren't even on the game at the time.

quote:

The following are more problematic and overpowered, especially as they can often be used consecutively, shields from guests, baby chimera shield, pet dragon shield, and zardburgers. None of these have been hit. These will definitely be used by Chaosweaver to wombo-combo any boss into oblivion without the fear of retaliation.


Why have you also ignored this part of my post? Without using class shields and only using 1 guest (shield), you can be protected for 12 turns consecutively. 12 turns. Let's say NSTB is completely overpowered, what's this then? NSTB is completely ethical and tame in comparison to this, the nerf doesn't make sense while this is still around. This isn't 'playing around' gambit, this is mega cheese, the best way to avoid the cheese with Soul Gambit is to slap a -200 M/P/M and B/P/D on it and make a few other tweaks (mentioned here ).

@The Betrayer123- I think Verl said that ChW's walk will be fixed, whether it's a bug fix to prevent it from being stuck in the walls or something like it getting new walk animation.

@EdyMaster- That would work if used. Even now I can easily get 4k+ on a dragon assisted chi bomb on chaosweaver. Maybe they could put a hard cap on damage to something like 2000 or 3000 dmg.




Tr4pD00r -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 10:56:59)

Ive played more with Chaosweaver and now Im reading this thread.

Soul Gambit, a skill that will only be used when you reach the point where youre close enough to win the battle anyway, only gets overpowered because of all these things not related to Chaosweaver itself, and then NSTB is deemed 'overpowered' and gets nerfed because of some Chaosweaver Soul Gambit/Rebuke niche? This can't be good design.

If its true that NSTB gets nerfed because of Chaosweaver coming out (and I dont want assume thats the case, there hasnt been any official notice about the change yet) a good item has just gotten the sack at the expense of everyone, because of one class that not everyone is going to buy or be using (or even want to use for that matter, in the case of myself because it is apparent to me that Soul Gambit does more bad to the class than it is good, both in its actual ingame effect and for the class as a whole being the skill that is holding back Chaosweaver's other skills from being distributed more power).

NSTB is a good trinket that has its uses but its by no means 'overpowered'. You give up an attacking turn to activate it, enemies at later levels have inherent Bonus (the real accuracy debuff is lower than 50%), and it only affects one enemy at a time. Saying 'NSTB is op because so many classes use it' makes no sense. Trinkets, like helms/capes/rings/necklaces etc an equippable item that anyone would be using if they had them. And even if everyone WAS using NSTB specifically, why would that surprise you? Theres a Dragonfable guide called 'Best Weapons and Accessories for your level and class' which, as I imagine many here would describe it, lists the most "overpowered" items for your general consumption. Its only normal for people to evaluate the same item, come to the same conclusions and end up with the same loadout using the same item that does what they need it to do.

NSTB is a 'crutch' for weak classes, that I dont understand. What does that even mean? If a bunch of fringe classes use NSTB and have a good time challenging the Inn, thats a positive for NSTB. Its a good thing we have NSTB, for making bad/inferior/unpopular classes playable at the very least. If someone really really likes playing Shadow Rogue and NSTB gives it the desperate 1-Up it needed for that player to enjoy Shadow Rogue, all the better for you my friend. For us fortunate souls with Dragon Amulet and DCs, Powerful classes are already powerful. Giving NSTB to every Entropy or Kathool Adept is not going to make Entropy/Kathool better by as much as Shadow Rogue in comparison. If some class cant survive without NSTB and would like to have it in their arsenal, well, maybe the class is just bad to begin with.

In the same vein, NSTB doesnt suddenly become 'overpowered' in itself because one day Chaosweaver drops into the game. Not So Tiny Bubbles has always been Not So Tiny Bubbles. We should perhaps consider the possibility that if introducing Chaosweaver is somehow so bad that theres no way other than to nerf one or multiple items and mechanics that already exist in the game (and be prepared to do this again and again any time any other class comes out), that maybe it is a problem with Chaosweaver's mechanics and/or the belief that "Every class X has to be balanced with all these existing items A, B, C,... etc taken into account" is unsustainable (trying to find the right words to describe this) ie not a very good future proofing way of going about design, and going out of the way to nerf items at the drop of a hat does not do good to retain player favor.

On Rebuke: Chaosweaver does not have any way of putting status effects on itself bar Soul Gambit and Soul Aegis yet so much of an upper cap on Rebuke's base damage, which makes me wonder if we are actually supposed to use all this other stuff like guests or whatnot. If we are - Balancing items and other aspects of the game because theyre expecting you to do that is a clear conflict in the fundamentals of Chaosweavers design which is only coming at the expense of everyone else who wishes to use guests/items. And if I dont want to use guests or dont have any offending items such as NSTB... I never use Rebuke in my entire Chaosweaver career because its no better than a basic attack. There are ways to internalize the concept of Rebuke to aspects of Chaosweaver itself as to make it not be dependent on outside mechanics so much, or at all. Consider this mechanic if some skills granted the player a 'Chaos Charge' on use (as well as doing what the skills do currently like ShadowWalker of Time's charges). Its stored for the next x turns. Then when Rebuke is used, its base damage goes up for each Chaos Charge on yourself. And thats all Chaos Charges need to do.



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 11:31:51)

Regarding NSTB: it was used for more than just Chaosweaver shenanigans. I had plans to nerf it already, and I did nerf it overly much, and I'm taking another look at it today. I mostly wanted a clear view of how Chaosweaver works that wasn't dependent on specific item strategies.
A new version of Chaosweaver will be coming out today with some interesting stuff! As well as an update to NSTB.



JIKIL -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 13:00:38)

Chaosweaver feels good to use with its high damage numbers and super slick animations. For me this class finally made the rose stuff I stockpiled look good. Overall quite fun. sometimes i would go back and forth between tiles or be stuck in the corners of the screen but presumably that will be fixed at some point.

The only gripe i have, in my personal inexperience, i would say that the class too reliant on Gambit to deal the massive feels good damage its known for. I mean the buffs and drawbacks are fine on their own perhaps but outside using that ability it deals quite the mediocre amount of damage with rebuke pulling it through. Obliterate is king of weird as is since it only delays CW's inevitable demise by one turn without any guests/pets maybe.

Maybe its made intentionally like that, I wouldn't know.



The_element -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 15:25:52)

For those not on the discord, NSTB has been updated to -30 BtH for 4 turns on a 9 turn cooldown. Also bear in mind that most mobs have scaled bonus, 18 bth at level 90, and a lot of inn bosses have higher bonus than this.



JIKIL -> RE: =DF= September 13th Design Notes: Maleurous: Part II and Chaosweaver Testing (9/16/2019 17:04:54)

Coming back from the new CW changes.

The soul threads return and they make playing CW so slick and much safer, especially when planning ahead to use Gambit. Rebuke has changed so that it acts like previous soul assault, which does more damage based health lost so it would've still have some value if not for one detail. It being unable to crit is just excessive for a nerf. It also doesn't synergise well with soul slice, which grants crit and CWs passive, which is more crit damage. Frankly its in a quite weird spot now and is more situational than before, if it ever gets any use.

Haven't tried nearly killing myself yet though, so I've yet to see how much damage it actually does. ill make an edit once I do some more practise on it.



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