CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (Full Version)

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Aura Knight -> CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 12:26:44)

With how necessary resource management is to the builds relying on followers and their stat distribution unable to be interrupted, the change in which all healing moves to endurance will destroy certain strategies. It is for this reason we should work to keeping charisma as the stat used for followers if their only purpose is healing. There cannot now be a sudden change which shakes up what we've been used to. Numbers can of course see adjustments but beyond that a further change would be much too drastic. As a charisma enjoyer I do not wish to be forced to change my stats to compensate for a change I never asked for.

I'm looking for a way in which charisma and endurance can equal each other on just heals because it isn't right to expect the beast build to accept a loss.



Lorekeeper -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 12:57:11)

Hello. In the interests of a constructive discussion, could you replace the clickbait with an introduction to the premise to be discussed?

Edit: Thanks.



Sapphire -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 14:08:28)

The END v CHA debate that has dominated the other thread has a few basic points that some seem to make, that I find to be outright fallacy. It's an argument that is made to fulfill an outcome, when the actual argument has holes galore.

Here's what I mean.

Despite being mathematically overpowered, it has a lower desire to be trained by some players. But the power there is still there. The false argument that is made stems from the style bonus END received. 12.5% heal resist modifier.

That has caused some players to call END "the healing stat". That's an outright strawman. Self-serving arguments aren't reasons for wholesale change. Just because it increases heal resistance, doesn't mean "Endurance should heal better than other stats" There's the fallacy that's used to justify the changes attempted to be implemented.

In actuality, END is the ....ding ding ding ENDURANCE STAT. The amount of up-front HP's it gives matters. The 1x per battle cleanse matters. And yes, the 12.5% heal resist matters. Anything else that may or may not be done with END, ultimately means it needs to provide durability to the player, more than other stats perhaps.

There are two ways stats work. A. Inherent base behavior and style bonus the stat provides. B. Item support that makes use of what the stat gives and provides.
The reason why END is viewed by some as undesirable is because either A (base behavior) or B (item support) are unattractive.

The reason why CHA is viewed by some as "doing too much" or "more attractive (including healing) is either because of A (base behavior) or B (item support)

CHA's base behavior is that it boosts companions, both pets and guests. The item support for CHA comes in the form of pets and guests enabling a huge swath of ideas. Almost every status under the sun is available, as well as healing. CHA provides a TON of versatility, not just damage. The item support also comes with item design choices that were made back years ago, so make pets and guests have toggles. In more recent memory, some have up to THREE modes.

MOAR damage is generally better 99% of the time over MOAR defense. Why is this? Because monsters do not threaten the player, in most cases. They're weak. Everyone knows this. The result is a favorable approach to offense over defense or nuke and win over sustain strategies. This is why FO leans are far more popular compared to FD leans. The stat revamp's style bonuses of proc mastery and warrior leans ( Not a style bonus but you get it) did in fact somewhat help. But the fact remains CHA and LUK might look more attractive than END.
END's MAIN attraction isn't that it gives access to HP's, nor 12.5% heal resist, nor the 1x per battle cleanse. It's main attraction is that it has a surplus amount of HP's to fuel Essence Orb. But EO is on the table , ready for surgery. The impending nerf will be felt widespread. It's become so ingrained in people's playstyle and inventory, it will be a big deal the day it is changed. How big of a deal will be dependent on how much it is nerfed.

The only other ideas/playstyles that utilize what END does are things that cost HP's, and backlash. So you have a stat, that's not assumed, that provides a surplus amount of HP's to fuel EO and a few HP costed ideas vs CHA, which has thousands of pets and guests, skills, weapons, and is also the least used stat in monster design so that any status from a pet/guest that is Cha v CHa the player has a major major major advantage. The utility and versatility of CHA comes from both A and B (listed above) being superior.

I hope LK doesn't mind, but LK said this in discord about END: Isn't the whole point of the thread to come up with a way to take it from "Mathematically overpowered, practically underpowered" to a middle ground?



If so, The answer isn't to then, replace CHA with END on all pets and guests that heal, and force scaling throughout the game based on END to every single item that heals. If that's the point of the thread, then in my opinion we should be dealing with END's base behavior and it's accompanying item support and leave other stat out of the discussion. Replacing how a pet or guest operates when they heal with some END-scaling idea is bad business, and only serves to tick people off.


There *are* people who like END as it stands. Those people also shouldn't be trounced on, either. You have backlashers and EO-abusers and players who love the security of a massive HP pool.

That HP pool is so large, that when I ran a comparison between Main-stat/END/LUK and MAin-stat/CHA/LUK and used a healing pet and guest over a 20 turn model, that the END/LUK build had more functional HP's at the end than the CHA/LUK build did despite CHA boosting the heal from the pet and guest every turn. This means that replacing CHA with END to be required for heals isn't even necessary. It nerfs CHA build's ability to heal, which is provided by item support, and replacing it with END. ANd it incentivizes a 0 Main-stat build even more than conditions already do. There will be a domino effect that could end up requiring much more work than anyone even realizes.

Ultimately, the base behavior of END is less attractive and the item support is less than CHA has, pure and simple.

END's base behavior probably needs a tweak, but done so in a fashion that doesn't trample on those who like it as it is, as well as use any idea that it's used to "ensure it's the best healing stat" like replacing everything. As I have pointed out, it doesn't have to be the best healing stat. It needs to be the best durability stat. Healing should only be apart of the equation. Using "should be the best healing stat" is false.

As for base behavior, this is why I believe reducing what END currently provides from 2895 down by 25%, to 2171. Then add back in x1.25 (or +25%) to all player derived heals. If a 250 END player starts out with 5129 HP's compared to 2958 for a 0 END player, and increases ALL PLAYER DERIVED healing, I think it doesn't trample on players who like END as much and I think they'll accept this idea once they see it in practice, AND it doesn't trample on anyone else's gaming (like how the proposal kicks CHA players in the teeth)

Some examples-
Trickster magic weapon can heal up to 284 HP in 4 landed hits. With my proposed change, if you had 250 END, you'd heal 1.25x instead or +25% for 355 instead. If you then include END's style bonus, that's another 12.5 for 399.
Trickster Shield heals for 253 per dodge (capped at 4) With this proposal, this is now 355.
Now take potions, heal spells/skils, bell shell, nulgath shield, chrono misc, nickelclad etc and you can see how strong the idea is.


The reason for it needing to affect all heals is this: 1. EO will be nerfed, and there's very very little options for SP healing for non CHA players (lack of item support) We need more options for Sp heals for non CHA builds 2. CHA can fuel better heals via scaling with pets/guests that heal.

Where CHA's item support fuels healing of all three resources, here instead, END's base behavior fuels healing of all three resources. Or, there needs to be a *focused*, concerted effort at more item support that utilizes END in terms of HP and SP healing.


Also, many players who run END also run LUK. END's 1x per battle cleanse sort of takes a back seat to Lucky Break. I honestly would prefer it if the cleanse idea was dropped and saved for End-based items, and instead have END reduce DoT damage specifically. Another idea might be to have END decrease the player's Harm resist some. These are better ways to make END create more durability, and thus, it'd be more attractive.

This is how you make END more desirable . If all the stats were deemed fine 1 month ago, and now there's a revisit to END based on the healing discussion, stop including targeted nerfs to CHA when all of this is really about increasing END's attractiveness and item support.

Remember, if you're more durable, there's less of a need to heal in the first place. But yeah we can let it help player derived heals, too. I find this approach to be rather clear.



Aura Knight -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 16:47:07)

Attempts made to make endurance a more desirable stat should not include removal of needed benefits to other ones. Build identity needs to be protected and for one which uses companions for resource management, to suggest that is a worthy loss has no fairness.

Resource management is expected from charisma focused builds but most of the heal power still relies on endurance. The fact we heal a lot even with 0 means the endurance stat is too powerful and charisma has the weakness being we need the 250 for full potential. Heal reliance on endurance needs less of a focus or we'll get the most overpowered stat to exist. Charisma helps maintain the balance making any attempt at changing this a threat.

It's not like endurance couldn't get other changes so why push for the nerf to charisma if we have other options?



aq DarkKnight -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 17:40:02)

In ten words or less, could you clarify this topic in layman's terms? I am confused about the main points why Charisma and Endurance points in need of fixing as I am not very familiar with it.



Aura Knight -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 17:46:56)

Healing moved from CHA to END will hurt beast builds.




Branl -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 18:19:15)

quote:

Attempts made to make endurance a more desirable stat should not include removal of needed benefits to other ones. Build identity needs to be protected and for one which uses companions for resource management, to suggest that is a worthy loss has no fairness.


I find this an alarming proclamation, given Charisma is probably the most guilty stat of violating build identity to begin with. The choice between Charisma/Endurance/Luck is so insanely skewed because it dips it's fingers into everything. It's in the same role as Int is, in that both severely limit the avenues we can pursue to achieve stat parity due to their sheer versatility. Charisma has been violating Endurance's identity as THE defensive stat for years because Charisma can effectively replicate Endurance's benefit of extra health through extremely skewed healing ratios that regular healing spells can't even begin to match, along with effectively any other defensive or offensive benefit that gets created through pets and guests.

Total health has been found to be incredibly wanting as a benefit, as unlike healing, you don't get any benefit out of any health that goes unused in a battle, but with healing, you can always heal as much health as you want and use your resources towards another effect afterwards. Increasing Max Health is the least flexible way of playing defensively, only really held up by a mechanic in desperate need of balance adjustments (Backlash).

So the problem is simple:
Endurance should, as a consequence of it's lacking flexibility compared to Charisma, be strictly superior to Charisma in whatever identity we decide to give it. Because invariably, through pets/guests, Charisma is going to eat into practically any identity you can think of for Endurance. Whatever it is strictly superior to Charisma in, HAS to be an effect desirable enough to make the choice between Charisma and Endurance (or omitting Luck entirely) meaningful.

Healing is one of the choices. Chaotic's suggestion is one implementation. You could argue we can just dump raw heal res into Endurance and call it a day, but the amount of heal res End needs to provide to exceed a 1:2 input:output ratio that Cha gives it's healing effects is so absurd that it's unreasonable to think you could approach a heal focused change strictly along those lines and have it not result in major balancing problems.

The problem is simply that making workable proposals is less fun than simply ranting against the only workable proposed solution we have been presented. It's a lot easier to be destructive than constructive, after all. But, ultimately, all of these complaints are in danger of being ignored simply because we lack enough workable alternative suggestions. This is EXACTLY what happened with Int's Wallbreaker and it is looking very likely we're going to see a repeat.

So if you want this thread to be productive in the "don't make End eat into Cha's identity of eating into literally every identity", less rants about how people may "like" End as is, "don't like Cha losing value" and more workable alternative suggestions.



dizzle -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 19:01:38)

I do feel the need to step in and comment that this rhetoric of people being destructive without being constructive is rather toxic. This has to be the 3rd or 4th time I’ve seen a negative connotation attached to people providing feedback that goes against certain proposals. Bashing somebody who has opinions on radical changes even though they might not have an equally radical proposal in a different direction is unwarranted. The forums and especially the GENERAL DISCUSSION section is here for discussion. You don’t have to come armed with a list of alternate ideas and you don’t need to one up the wildly radical proposal you’re responding to. Please anyone who disagrees feel free to disagree and let’s talk about it. You don’t need to be as creative as Chaotic or Primate or Jeanne or Sapphire battle siege or Aerin to make sure you voice is heard. EDIT - I’m gonna add this in because I said it elsewhere, this entire thing is a paradox anyway because just about everyone in this conversation *has* provided alternate solutions to this shadow of a problem. But you have certain people who just refuse to actually read what others say and just provide inaccurate straw men. If any progress at all is to truly be made we have to honestly engage in good faith and not just say we’re engaging in good faith while doing nothing of the sort

I’ll invoke the same thing I’ve been saying over and over for the last 2 years. In a game where the devs ACTUALLY listen to player feedback, ALL feedback should be welcome. Even if you’re not armed with a counter suggestion. And it’s especially welcome when radical game changing proposals are made. I’ve made my thoughts on this subject clear but I will come back to this post and edit it after reflecting and brainstorming for a bit.



Aura Knight -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 19:35:24)

Maybe this belongs on the other thread. Endurance needs its own identity without hurting other builds in the pursuit of getting it. We can't take part of one stat benefit, move it to the other and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. We should look at hypercrit for heals being too easy to force, healing being wasted turns and how to improve that, the number of items supporting one stat vs the other.






Branl -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 19:44:29)

Nobody said you needed to come armed with a list of alternate ideas. But those alternate ideas are far more actionable than just objecting to one proposal or another.
Ultimately, like with Wallbreaker, it doesn't matter how many objections you have to an idea if workable alternatives don't exist or aren't proposed. If it's the only solution presented, it'll very likely by what gets implemented in some way or another.

This is why Aura Knight had to make another thread to begin with. Precisely because these massive complaint posts with little in actionable alternatives or support for said alternatives are inactionable in and of themselves. The devs can't do anything with them beyond have it impact what solution they might choose. But the problem is that nobody has really presented an alternate solution that satisfies some very simple conditions:

You need to give End something it does better than other stats that players want but don't need, and it needs to be significant enough that the choice between End/Cha/Luk is meaningful.



dizzle -> RE: Charisma threatened! Endurance wages war on the better stat. (3/30/2024 20:18:44)

quote:

Precisely because these massive complaint posts with little in actionable alternatives or support for said alternatives are inactionable in and of themselves. The devs can't do anything with them beyond have it impact what solution they might choose.


Make no mistake, these threads and discussions are just as much for us as they are for the devs.

Anyway, regarding END. The point of this thread is discuss how the proposed Healing change would affect the dynamic between CHA and END.

The point of the Healing proposal change was to 1) dispute the perceived unfairness of healing between builds and stats and 2) make END more attractive. I’m under the impression that END is not inherently unattractive, and that the decision between secondary stats *is* meaningful. Just because you view END as a wasted investment does not mean that it is inherently a wasted investment. Anyone who has played with an underleveled character to any extent at all or has fought against War-Torn Dragon will recognize just how impactful END can be.

However, that’s not to say that the huge 6,000hp bar is acceptable. END is the tank stat and should continue to give extra HPs, but where to draw the line is debatable and will most likely be arbitrary if it does change. I think dropping the max HP count at max EnD investment by ~1000 would be acceptable. But with the nerf to the HP bar, undoubtedly some will feel like they will need to be compensated in other areas. I do not believe this to be the case. I think that at base functionality END is fine where it’s at.

In the other thread I saw a suggestion from Telcontar Arvedui suggesting that EO clicks could scale with END. This is precisely where my line of thinking is. Something as simple as scaling the amount of SP you can get from EO would be enough to vault END into relevancy for EVERYONE, not just the newbs. This doesn’t require a wholesale change to the healing mechanic, it doesn’t require dozens of case by case item changes, and it doesn’t require alienating a large portion of the player base. On top of this i do believe this would help fulfill your list of requirements. Give END a few of these and boom it’s worth considering by even the “skilled” players, if that even means anything.

You might ask “Why should EO scale with END, but not something like plush mort or fae wanderer?” The answer is simple, EO is not a pet or guest. Miscs are much more flexible in terms of versatility and we have seen this proven repeatedly. Tbh the standards for miscs in general might even be questionable but that’s another debate for another thread for another time. Anyway, this is not to say that I’m opposed to some rare case where we get a new healing companion that scales with END, my only point is to say that we should not be changing items already existing to do this.



Telcontar Arvedui I -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 22:14:01)

Oh wow thanks dizzle. If you really like my EO proposal, do hop into the Healing thread and say it there! I still stand by my proposals that "wholesale changes the healing mechanic" and "require case-by-case item changes", though - I do believe it is necessary, as hard a pill as it is to swallow.

* * * * * * *


31st March EDIT: Corrected my calculations on Healing Guests' output to properly account for CHA's Style Bonuses.

That aside, I agree with Branl's posts. All of them. We need to make END much better than CHA and LUK at something, to the point that something becomes associated with END's identity. Similar to how CHA is much better at Companions compared to END and LUK. Yet, Companions are doing so many different things, at efficiency levels that fly in the face of the basic balance model. To put an analogy, CHA already has a big 10-pound cake when other stats have at best a 7-pounder - it wouldn't hurt to give END a quarter-slice of it.

How, you ask? In the Healing thread, I proposed this:

HP Healing should be scaled by END. If you want HP Healing to be scaled by another stat as well, I'm okay with that, but only up to a 80:20 ratio in favour of END.
Pets/Guests that heal HP? 80% END-scaled, 20% CHA-scaled.
Other items? 80% END-scaled, 20% mainstat-scaled. You can even make the 20% LUK-scaled or CHA-scaled (again!) if that matches the aesthetics/narrative concept. And we can still have some HP Healing items that are 100% END-scaled, for 2-mainstat-plus-END builds.

This barely affects Beastmaster builds. Really. They are still stupidly overpowered. Because my proposal means that, at 80:20 scaling, a 0-END, 250-CHA character can still summon a HP Healing Guest with 30 %Melee cost, and heal (22.5 + 0.2*22.5 + 5) * 1.2 * 0.9 = 34.56 %Melee back in HP. Heck, at 100:0 scaling, That same HP Healing Guest is healing (22.5 + 5) * 1.2 * 0.9 = 29.7 %Melee. These numbers include CHA's Style Bonus of +5% Melee to Guest output and Ferocious Strikes.

That's a 115% output-to-input ratio at 80:20 scaling, 99% at 100:0 scaling. With 250 CHA and 0 END. WHEN EVERY HEALING SPELL OUT THERE CAPS AT 90% OUTPUT-TO-INPUT RATIO, AND CAN ONLY DO THAT WITH 250 END.

If you want to whine that "MY GUESTS ARE HEALING AT 180% RIGHT NOW, WHY SHOULD THEY GO TO 99%", then I will reiterate, Guests are still healing for far more efficiency than all other healing stuff - a good 10 percent more efficiency, without having to invest in what we call the actual healing/tanking/endurance stat. That should be reason enough to not argue against bringing Guest healing efficiency down. Plus I'm not even touching MP/SP Healing Guests.

There are several other nuances in the proposal that I won't go into details here, because I had done it at the Healing thread - even at 0 stats invested at all, HP Healing should still provide base value to the player's turn, for example. MP/SP Healing should not be scaled by END, for another. But go there - this discussion is solely END vs CHA.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 22:49:18)

On its own 20% heal sounds bad but if things like hypercrit are added or if celerity is active it might help just enough. I do still think charisma should matter for companions whose only purpose is healing.



legendd -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 23:04:11)

quote:

Healing moved from CHA to END will hurt beast builds.


Not impacted as I have been running INT/END/CHA since first phase of stat revamp (expected the "bugfix" to pet celerity/hypercrit from ages ago - offtopic :D).

I support this because it forces players to invest in the most useless stat (as claimed by certain echochamber).



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 23:28:16)

Please drop the insertion of server rivalries and the meme of casting doubt over whether a fix is a fix.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/30/2024 23:44:34)

If you use a tank beast build you'll be unaffected as both CHA and END are part of your stats. I'm more concerned when the option will need to be between the two.



Sapphire -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 7:56:44)

END's identity isn't, nor shouldn't be "the best healing stat". That argument is a self-serving one that only serves to justify the END replacement of CHA on all healing.

In reality, END should be the durability stat, and just focusing on healing in my opinion is a further distraction to nerf the output of healing from pets/guests.

I don't have issues with making EO scale with END. There should be *some* items that utilizes END. It lacks item support compared to Charisma, and is the BIGGEST issue. It is clouding everyone's judgement in terms of this hyper-focused dogmatic point of view of CHA.
Again,what should happen is an adjustment to END's base behavior, and then introduce item support for it.

There is also this sentiment that we should be killing off Lucky Strikes, etc from heals. I disagree. This entire healing debate has become so widespread, just because of SC lean/berserk changes, that there's an attempt at essentially a redesign around this entire idea. For me, that's a non-starter. The backlash with a change on this scale and of this magnitude would wholly turn out to be a negative both in the short term and long term. It would be perceived as a bad faith change for many players.

The best path forward is addressing END by itself w/o touching any other stat, and do so in a manner that doesn't also destroy the gaming experience of those who like END the way it is, too. That may be rather difficult, and yes it is impossible to please everyone. But upending a lot of the game in some pursuit of imposing changes based on what a person or a small group of people think onto the masses is extremely selfish and severely lacks empathy for other's gaming experience.


This game isn't new and growing. So be delicate.

I wanted to touch on luck once more, before moving on. I was once on board and pushed for the idea of doubling lucky strike base rate to 20%, and halving the lucky strike damage. This came with the caveat that during the stat revamp, that luck was given a strong idea to offset the feels bad of this change. While average output with that change wouldn't change, the top-end extremes would no longer be there, and that might not sit well with some people. This approach does quell the lucky strike portion to healing, as well as damage, but because lucky strikes essentially props up luck so much, this is why it should be given a new idea. Lucky break IMO is too niche. 98% of monsters don't inflict a status on the player. And most of the ones that do, it's not going to alter the results of the fight. It does have some extremely powerful instances, such as vs a boss who's heavily utilizing statuses...but while that application can be strong, overall I find the mechan ic to be 'meh'. If we were to come up with, and add in something else to luck (it DID lose quite a bit during the stat revamp, tbh) then I could be persuaded to accept increasing base rate to 20% and halving the damage. This would require all or most items that deal with lucky strikes to be reevaluated mathematically, but this would bring down extreme cases for damage/healing. It's this type of compromise that's needed, not just killing lucky strikes altogether from healing.


Now, in terms of END, how can we make it more attractive and make sure it's identity is durability? (not "the healing stat")

If people feel as though the sheer amount of HP's is superfluous, and if people feel as though training CHA provides a healing advantage.. (it may, but HP's matter as it means up-front HP's means needing to heal less often, which is an inherent advantage btw), then perhaps END can use some better heal power. So again,

1. 2895 HP's END gives x .25=2171 HP's instead.

2. Increase all player-derived heals by 1.25 (+25%). This offsets the HP loss.

3. Replace Status cleanse (reserve this idea for items, it could be an idea exclusively using END) with...

4. Reducing DoT damage specifically

Other ideas

1. Increase MRM by an amount, remove HP's further. If you lets say, block 10% more often, you don't need the HP's because you blocked. So this is a swap. Endurance can also mean blocking at a higher rate. Currently, nobody blocks more than anyone else. This actually makes it so training END gives more durability for blocking, too.
2. Let END decrease the player's Harm resistance. This is more niche, but I think it fits in with "more durable"
3. You could tie some added feature to the player, based on END. Example-->Everytime the player chugs a HP potion. You are forced to skip a turn. Maybe this is a hybrid idea of what LK mentioned. Instead of all turn skips, make this occur when you chug a potion. Give the player an eleshield (or a barrier) based on END, when they chug a HP potion. This means having to take the turn followed with the eleshield (or barrier) should result in more benefit than everyone else.


And finally, there just needs to continue to be more item support. I think if you approached changes to END in order to have it do many things that all increase durability in a variety of ways, and reduce it's HP's some, but not by a whole lot, it would become more attractive and therefore, more competitive in many's minds as a viable alternative.

LAstly, here's why it should affect all 3 resource bars healing:

1. Pets and Guests exist that heal all 3 bars, and these are all increased by training CHA. Plush Mort (premium), Mosquito (premium), Jelly (rare), Wishweaver (premium), Vampoglin (gold), Void skull (premium), and others all heal SP. Training CHA boosts this.

2. Take the above pets. If the heal/attack that heals lucky strike, this boosts the SP heal.

The above 2 instances means that both CHA and LUK can boost SP healing. Also, Wishweaver armor's (premium) exchange costs HP and heals SP = to damage, with a cap. It's 2 hits. A lucky strike can help get to that cap by increasing damage. This is another example of Luck boosting an SP heal. Currently, END cannot boost SP at all, where there are cases where CHA and LUK can. This is likely the basis for Chaotics argument with this entire "build agnostic v build dependent". In both instances he is trying to disable CHA/LUK and have NOTHING increase the SP heal, or REPLACE it all with END such that only END can. Both cases are a terrible application.

Instead, a proper "fix" is you make END boost SP heals from player-derived items, too, to match the instances with LUCK and CHA. So, for example, Wishweaver's SP heal would be boosted by END. Dodge SP heal (like ultragauradian/moonfang shields) would boost the heal. There are some other SP heal items, however, almost none of them are of anything significant enough to challenge Eseence Orb. If we're to see EO nerfed, IMO, first we'd need a couple armor options, maybe a trickster shield for SP, maybe an Infinita staff redesign to be sort of a nickelclad approach (mostly) (Please see my infinite rework idea in suggestions, it's essentially nickeclad and the 5% MC is damage based SP) and some other options so that END players can make use of these new items so that the EO nerf isn't so devastating. (BEcause that's actually the main reason players train END)

Lastly, I am open to the capped healing idea, but weary. I wouldn't support anything draconian, nor would I support anything based on item category (like how eaters are based on the melee valuation for capping) It would need to fit with how damage caps work, a more universal set up and still allow for players to try and stack , etc. (Because Fun matters more than some strict dogmatic ideological model nonsense) I found Wishweaver's cap to be just fine. Not too low, not too high. Any draconian caps would fall out of favor for me, personally.

Focus on an Endurance redesign and mostly leave other stats alone. This doesn't slap people across the faith and doesn't give off bad faith feelings from devs in terms of items, etc (like altering premium items, or even completely altering people's favorite builds in a negative way)



CH4OT1C! -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 9:19:11)

I don't particularly wish to get involved in the discussions here. With that said:

quote:

The above 2 instances means that both CHA and LUK can boost SP healing. Also, Wishweaver armor's (premium) exchange costs HP and heals SP = to damage, with a cap. It's 2 hits. A lucky strike can help get to that cap by increasing damage. This is another example of Luck boosting an SP heal. Currently, END cannot boost SP at all, where there are cases where CHA and LUK can. This is likely the basis for Chaotics argument with this entire "build agnostic v build dependent". In both instances he is trying to disable CHA/LUK and have NOTHING increase the SP heal, or REPLACE it all with END such that only END can. Both cases are a terrible application.

This statement made by @Sapphire is inaccurate. As was mentioned in this post in the other thread, my reasoning isn't related to fact that "CHA and LUK can boost SP healing". This statement in itself isn't accurate - the stats CHA and LUK do not directly boost SP heals. My point was that the item support provided to these stats has always fallen under the build-agnostic nature of SP. All Guests are currently CHA exclusive and the majority use SP. This is a CHA-exclusive outlet for SP, which is agnostic because SP is not inherently tied to these item options. The examples @Sapphire quotes also fall under this banner. They represent items that can heal SP. My point was that regeneration options for SP should be tied to END, but that other stats may still offer agnostic benefits in other areas.



Sapphire -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 9:33:40)

Like I said when pinged in discord, I stand corrected on what you meant. Also, as mentioned, it changes nothing in my estimation. It just means it's attempting to be fit into the model you guys are creating.

For the record, guests are not CHA exclusive. And even if I didn't wish to point out boosters, they still wouldn't be. They're simply suboptimal w/o CHA. In addition to that, guests BTH get half their BTH from main stat.

I find it rather odd, that the suggestion is attempting to make all healing be required to scale with END, but then claim that all guests are CHA exclusive when they aren't. If that were the case, then no guests would have main stat included in their BTH and no boosters would have main stat scaling at all. If one were to truly be consistent, if END were to be the domain of healing only, then guests would need to be the domain of CHA only. But since that's not the case, neither "rule" should occur. Besides, the idea severely limits item design..and therefore, fun. Also, trying to mathematically present proof of concept on a bad idea is still a bad idea.

Also SP regen options shouldn't automatically be tied to END.

This entire issue is Burn Bridges vs Ideological Dogmatic Adherence to an unproven idea. IDk what else to tell you





Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 14:56:13)

The lack of appeal with endurance is an issue of player choice not of stat imbalance. Following the change to dexterity 250 points were freed up which pures previously using main/dex/luck for their builds had the option to move the dex points to endurance without issue. The conclusion where charisma is too powerful is too much of a reach when you can say the same for every other stat when paired with its respective items meant to work with it. Strength makes melee very powerful, intellect makes magic powerful which in itself is an overloaded stat yet we won't discuss it. Dexterity was offered the biggest buff yet the stat previously nerfed will need to lose more because endurance, the already powerful stat lacks appeal according to the people who refuse to use it well? Currently heals are extremely powerful from just spells. You heal well even with 0 end, however for the power charisma has you require the 250 points too.



zoby77 -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 17:54:45)

This is the 4th back to back nerf to beast builds, there's clearly an agenda. I'm not here to argue it or try to get it reversed because that hasn't worked in the past and I'm not willing to waste the energy,

I don't know why I don't see more new people voicing there concerns like I do,,,,,,,, OH WAIT I DO! Just a few weeks ago I voiced my opinion on the optico nerf and got banned for 3 days! These mods are a joke to me, they want to play king of the castle while being blown by a few sorry individuals and they don't want anyone to challenge them.

NEWS FLASH: This game isn't getting a lot of new players you might want to hold on to what you have. Inappropriate comments removed. Sexual harassment is is prohibited. ~Ward



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 18:06:01)

I don't get how those of us who like to play beast builds or at the very least rely on charisma are expected to accept the loss to part of our strategy. Charisma is for followers, if they heal us they use the stat. I can't force change to endurance while pretending it's ok. This is an attempt to ruin part of how I prefer to experience the game. Until the topic was brought up nobody cared that endurance was neglected.



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 19:24:45)

This is not a forum for harassing the moderation team, or attempting to misrepresent measures for walls of insults and cursing at devs as the censorship of an obviously nonexistent conspiracy. Kindly remember that:

  • The rules are not suggestions that users not make sexual jokes and curse each other/the team out. They're a requirement for constructive posting. There are consequences for breaking them.
  • Bans do not happen without documentation or contacting the user with an explanation. Before alleging that one was banned for voicing an opinion when it was for flagrant rule breaking, while repeating said misbehavior, it's recommendable to check one's inbox and email.

    Please post constructively.



    • legendd -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 19:35:57)

    quote:

    when you can say the same for every other stat when paired with its respective items meant to work with it. 


    As you pointed out, in addition to that been a couple years already that some players view individual items math to determine whether said item is OP or not. And then view item interaction whether OP or not. Then propose fixes.

    :D



    Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 19:46:51)

    That's enough ignoring of the warning against trying to drag server rivalries into official forums. Firstly, CHA's versatility cannot under any circumstance be compared to END's. Secondly, there is precisely nothing wrong with pointing out mathematical errors in items, or using an item's publicly posted numbers as one of the avenues of feedback by which to point out if they have issues.



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