RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (Full Version)

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Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 20:18:57)

Is what's to happen really the proper move if the expected benefit to endurance comes at the expense of one of the traits which charisma benefits from?

quote:

Firstly, CHA's versatility cannot under any circumstance be compared to END's.


This is a problem. To me it sounds like lack of compromise with thought expression. Why can it not be compared? The more endurance we have, the more of every resource we access if the trio of essence orb, pixel ether and to a limited capacity candy bag are used. This set of resource manipulation is almost unlimited while with charisma we get one or two regen attempts a turn. Endurance offers more hp, charisma works off the minimum we get. HP costs are close to free, follower upkeep uses resources. Spending resources to gain them is fine. Charisma does this well but endurance can do it better. You're either underestimating current endurance or choosing to ignore how good it is.

Rather than empower an already plenty strong stat, we should focus most on replacing excess hp with more useful effects without hurting how other builds play.



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 20:20:56)

My apologies, that was missing a word. I meant to say 'disfavorably compared'. As in, CHA is so versatile that END doesn't have anywhere near as much going for it.



sujin6614 -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 20:21:26)

Stay on topic. If you wish to discuss CHA vs END here, do so. ~Ward



zoby77 -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 20:26:20)

This is a PG13 forum. And even if it wasn't, the comments are not appropriate. ~ Ward



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 20:31:45)

1) I didn't say anything about sexual harassment.
2) When insistently breaking the rules, receiving punishment is not mod abuse. It is the consequences of one's actions.
3) In light of the unapologetic and antagonistic doubling down on rule breaking, this thread is now locked until a moderator reviews it.



Ward_Point -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 22:25:12)

A final reminder to all

1) This is a PG13 forum. You are to read and adhere to the Forum Comprehensive Rules
2) All members who post here shall stay on-topic. The Forum team has permanently locked threads for far less.
3) External rivalries shall stay out of this forum.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 22:38:43)

Sweet a new chance. [:)]

With the first attempt at this ending in failure I welcome another opportunity to properly express thoughts on the matter concerning possible future changes in which stat identity can be further distinguished. As much as it sucks to admit, the charisma stat, despite lacking mainstat status, is overloaded. I like it but for the sake of true fairness it needs to be adjusted. We'll hopefully work together to do this.

Now, Chaotic has begun a talking point in which the neglected endurance stat be given the role of the resource regen or heal of every type stat. While the idea to me feels extreme, upon further thinking it can be an opportunity to push for build balance. Every stat can offer something while losing very little. The topic for this thread will be limited to charisma, endurance and how to find a middle ground where each stat keeps its usefulness.

With respect to the current power of charisma we should look at reeling it in a bit to offer room for endurance to matter. Before everything we must set expected roles for the two stats.

What should endurance be?

What should charisma be?

Can the two work together or will it be best to keep their effects completely independent?

Could we look to remake typical beast builds where endurance replaces luck for heal power? In other words no more LS reliance.

At this time I think looking to remove hypercrit from beast builds just for heals would be a worthy sacrifice. By moving heal focus to endurance and away from charisma while keeping the other benefits of the stat it can work.

In practice a lucky beastmage would convert to a tank beastmage where the only loss is with initiative and lucky strike. Resource regen would improve. I know it feels like a forced change but one which will be done in a way where relying on LS for resource control will not matter.

On the side of endurance we should look beyond just heals and focus too on other tank related benefits. At this time this is as far as I can get while rushing through typing this. Feel free to help out with the brainstorming.

Oh and if you need to 1v1 people do it through pms or something.

edit: Just pointing out the topic of healing in the other thread is not confirming changes. I thought it did which was why my previous reaction was very defensive. We're still in the discussing phase.



sujin6614 -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 23:15:44)

quote:

What should charisma be?


Its perfect as it is though? Just change END.
Brother the changes that are being discussed effects so many premium items. How would the people who actually Own those think when they will be nerfed by the changes? Just a PLUSHIES that AE sales is 20$ a pop. How can you sell those knowing you will change them. So many tokens, UR item will be effected. Do you think people who have paid with their hard earned money will be happy?

Just change END without nerfing or even touching Cha

quote:

1. 2895 HP's END gives x .25=2171 HP's instead.

2. Increase all player-derived heals by 1.25 (+25%). This offsets the HP loss.

3. Replace Status cleanse (reserve this idea for items, it could be an idea exclusively using END) with...

4. Reducing DoT damage specifically


I like this suggestion by Sapphire


quote:

Focus on an Endurance redesign and mostly leave other stats alone. This doesn't slap people across the faith and doesn't give off bad faith feelings from devs in terms of items, etc (like altering premium items, or even completely altering people's favorite builds in a negative way)


Trust me its more than just a slap.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (3/31/2024 23:25:50)

There will always be item adjustments and to expect exemption from that due to premium status is just wishful thinking. Looking at plush mort for example, with my idea the heal from it will remain strong even without reliance to lucky strike. Luck is a luxury to beast builds and one I'd not mind losing provided the effect of the pet remain equal while relying more on endurance and charisma vs cha/luk.



Dardiel -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 3:04:21)

Trying to be quick and simple about identities: Endurance is the stat for having health, but other stats can create more health (technically up to infinitely more health, if any stat with good heals wants to *endure* for any given amount of time) and those stats are also able to switch between heals and other effects while END locks you in to having health even if you don't need that much.

I think that making END be the health stat means it should be associated with gaining health, but technically if END becomes the "last a long time in battle" stat (which I think x2 HP is a bit janky for; it resists burst but as mentioned it can't actually outlast healing) then it could potentially gain a mechanical identity that doesn't require editing gear.

I personally also feel that END could benefit from having an output, ie a thing that can happen in battle to remind you of how useful your END is being - Mainstats and CHA have accuracy and damage, while LUK has lucky strikes, meaning all of the other stats will reliably have popups directly associated with the cool things you're doing as opposed to just having your countdown timer start higher.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 9:36:58)

For those who play lucky beastmage would you be ok if the luck part of it was made less relevant for resource management if the proposed change improves regen itself? There would be a damage loss but more opportunity to skill/spell spam. Power sacrifice for the sake of resource focus to me seems worth it.

Charisma and endurance can work together rather than have one try to be better.



Sapphire -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 10:01:13)

Dardiel, thank you for that post.

END already does have some output..both with HP-costed items and backlash. It exists, but playing with HP's as a means for output is a risk. In fact, HP cost seemingly causes an item's effect to become more powerful. If you look at every item that causes you to pay HP, the effect is almost always considered stronger than normal damage reduction or SP or MP cost, especially in terms of subjective opinion based attractiveness.

END already is the tank stat. It doesn't need to "become" that. Their suggestions are attempting to transform it from the tank stat to the heal stat, and honestly, optically speaking it comes off as a means to an end...that end being what everyone sees.

Luck also boosts heals via lucky strikes. Cha boosts heals due to CHA scaling on pets and guests when a pet and guest's design is to heal. So it makes sense that END boosts heals. That provides for more durability, but that's not justification to transform into the one and only requirement for healing.

Youre right in that END is not nearly as versatile as CHA. Actually, CHA is the most versatile stat in the game because of item support. The only way to even remotely attempt to bridge that gap is either A. Change the entire game by going through and redesigning every pet and guest. B. Find ways to alter others stats (END in this case) and provide item support. Going the "A" route is massively unfavorable to the masses, but preferable to the few. Going the B route is preferable to the masses, but unfavorable to the few. Why? People like their builds, like their items, and like AQ mostly as it stands today. And those folks aren't beholden to "an idea" as much as it's just about having fun. Make that idea some form of Religion and then attempting to impose it onto everyone in my eyes is untenable.

END isn't "the healing" stat. It's the "tanking" stat, and always has been. There's literally zero need to alter that foundation. But better healing can certainly be apart of END. Pay for that by reducing top end HP's, but not so much so that people who actually LIKE those top END HP's won't be so utterly destroyed ALSO (like as with CHA players).

Tweak END, and provide much more item support.

What are some item design types of items that can utilize END?

1. More backlash
2. More HP cost
3. Any player derived heals (esp if you implement the suggestion I put forth)
4. Status cleanse ideas
5. Heal booster Pet/Guest
6. Heal resist mods
7. ENd-scaling barrier after consuming any Potions...This actually rewards END builds for skipping a turn to consume a potion...ie more tanky

If you approach END with multiple ideas, you widen it's versatility. Just address END and stop stepping on the throats of everyone with some of these game-altering wild suggestions



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 11:18:35)

quote:

What are some item design types of items that can utilize END?

1. More backlash
2. More HP cost
3. Any player derived heals (esp if you implement the suggestion I put forth)
4. Status cleanse ideas
5. Heal booster Pet/Guest
6. Heal resist mods
7. ENd-scaling barrier after consuming any Potions...This actually rewards END builds for skipping a turn to consume a potion...ie more tanky


These could definitely work. Backlash improves based on the stat which puts power to what's otherwise a weak stat for offense. Higher cost using hp adds a need to train the stat. Status cleanse from the stat made to resist them makes sense. Heal boost/resist would be fine. Barrier after potion use might be too much though something to help when we experience turn loss should be discussed.

The process leading up to the improvement of endurance doesn't need to ruin existing ways to play. Even my idea to remove reliance of luck feels weird to suggest because it still interferes with player stat choice. It's fine if some strategies have more power. True power balance will be impossible. Best we can do is offer appeal to whatever lacks it.



Sapphire -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 11:33:09)

In terms of the ENd-scaled barrier post HP chug... END isn't assumed. Potions aren't assumed. There shouldn't be an issue with tying those together in order to make END more attractive. 0 barrier at 0 END. X barrier at 250 END. Probably at 250 END, cancelling out average monster damage on average would make this come off as a turn skip in terms of time only. That would also be the max barrier, IMO, but maybe even ideal.

Also, another idea for END or even an ITEM. Lucky-strike clawback feature. Scale it with END. If the monster performs a lucky strike, there is a clawback that reduced the amount of extra damage LS's are providing.

This can also be given to monsters based on END.




Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 19:27:22)

To keep certain beast builds relevant beyond any future changes by not forcing unwanted stat changes it would be best to focus on attempting to equalize healing between builds with luck/endurance and charisma/endurance and the way to do this is pitting chance against guarantee. Heals where endurance exists will need to be unable to lucky strike and ones where there is charisma those will require a lucky strike for significant advantage. This will offer people the option to invest in either charisma or endurance from which they can strategize around. No extra power is offered to beast builds while plenty can go to tanks.



dizzle -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 20:23:52)

I agree that we need to be looking at this from a different angle, possibly figuring out a way to balance healing with the idea in mind that 2 secondary stats are standard. From a balance perspective we can’t even use hybrids because they destroy the games basics assumptions, and even up until recently we were expected to spend 1/3 of our total stat points on a universal accuracy stat (dex). Now that the concept of a universal accuracy stat is diminished we’re left to pick up the pieces and try to make sense of 1) why we’re still using fundamentally flawed and out of date assumptions to attempt to mathematically balance the game TODAY and, 2) the discrepancies between builds (or more accurately - stats) niches given the multiple doors that have been opened up after dex is no longer required for basic BTH.

It’s hard to make sense of how to go about this because as I said in a previous post, the talk of beastmasters being OP has persisted, but I’m still not sure who were supposed to be comparing “beastmasters” to. “Non-Beastmasters” covers a massive amount of play styles. If the claim is beast masters are OP compared to every single build not invested in CHA then that’s a questionable claim for a number of reasons, namely it being way too broad. If the claim is that beastmasters are better at healing compared to every single build not invested in CHA then that’s also a questionable claim.

I’m going to stop my train of thought here before we get too deep into the weeds because it seems like there’s just a bottom line disagreement here and I’m wondering if we’re all just spitballing for no reason. There is a disagreement on the very foundation this entire proposal is built on. Okay that’s fair, I think END is fine where it’s at mostly, but some (maybe even the majority) of people do not. That’s fair enough I’m willing to talk about ways to make END more appealing. However I don’t think that it should envelop and hold a monopoly over the healing mechanic. And we have seen very little compromise from the other side in terms of END *not* consuming healing completely.

So I ask this of the devs, please, how much credence are you guys (the developers) giving to this idea that END should hold a monopoly over healing, and the idea that a pet like Plush Mort should no longer scale with CHA and instead scale with END? Can we get an official comment or at least thoughts from the devs on these radical ideas being proposed? I can’t help but feel like we are all just spinning our wheels here and as much as I’d love to waste my time continuing to argue over semantics to prevent this from coming into fruition, I just feel like I’m wasting my time because there has been virtually 0 progress made in terms of compromise. I am all aboard for buffing END of making it more appealing if that’s what players feel they need to improve their experience, but I have not seen a single person who supports the healing change budge or seriously suggest anything different, or at the very least leaving the “healing pets and guests no longer scale with CHA, and now scale fully with END” idea behind (don’t flame me if i missed you just giving my perspective) It’s been a whole lot of bold and italicized words doubling down on the proposal or fleshing out the math behind it, instead of *really* trying to find an alternate solution that won’t negatively affect others. Am I wasting my time pleading my case, or is this just a necessary evil, playing this back and forth no-progress-made forums game?



legendd -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 22:36:04)

+1 what dizzle said



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 22:39:49)

To clarify, the discussion is strictly a matter of players' feedback on a topic that we acknowledge as important and something to keep an eye on the discussion of. It's not something that we're committing to any specific implementation on, but rather something to learn from. It's largely out of busyness that other team members haven't checked in more actively. For my own part, with all due apologies, I've been less able to keep up with heated discussions due to personal matters being too stressful at the moment - I don't have the attention budget to do the discussion justice, and have only stepped in when this subthread was hijacked to pick fights or curse people out.



dizzle -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/1/2024 23:57:26)

Thank you for the response



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 0:13:53)

quote:

To clarify, the discussion is strictly a matter of players' feedback on a topic that we acknowledge as important and something to keep an eye on the discussion of. It's not something that we're committing to any specific implementation on, but rather something to learn from. It's largely out of busyness that other team members haven't checked in more actively.


Hope I'm misunderstanding but I have to take issue with the fact that the topic forcibly moved out of the discussion which threatens to hurt a specific strategy isn't given the same attention as the one pushing for the change itself.



VileReptile -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 0:31:55)

I feel like we're jumping the gun here, but for good reasons, that I can see. EO will inevitably be changed, but I don't know how. Backlash and monster stats will probably be changed. Things that will influence how much stock we place on END and the other stats to some degree. If things were simple, I wouldn't see much issue with END being mathematically overpowered just on the premise that it didn't directly contribute to decreasing a monster's HP compared to the other stats. But that isn't the case.

My initial thought when reading is how many items support CHA had compared to END, which Sapphire mentioned (Isn't it weird that of all stats, CHA is the stat shields like Duke's, Sol Buckler, and Macka-lot scale their damage reduction off of? But I can recognize that it would be superfluous if one invested in END already). So the idea would be to use HP as a resource where builds w/o END may not have the luxury to do so. Of course, things like EO and backlash do just that and have been brought up in the GBI forums, and I don't have much to say on those matters right now.

END isn't in a predicament right now (EO, backlash, monster stats), and it may not even face one later on. Maybe devs could look into getting freaky with item support somehow that doesn't translate END stat into means of more damage (EO, backlash, damage scaling off of END)? I guess with that in mind, should END scaling items outclass other stat-related items when focused on providing certain defensive effects? My answer to that is yeah.



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 0:33:29)

The other thread is not being ignored; the heavy rule breaking took place in this one. That made one thread's issues more time sensitive and faster to deal with than the other's. If it's the reduced attention budget that's being objected to, I'm afraid I don't know how else to put it without detailing personal affairs that I would very much rather not get into. As I mentioned, the team is very busy and I'm currently dealing with some heavy personal matters.

Believe me, I take issue with having to deal with said matters myself, but my personal time and attention very limited for the time being. That's the reason I'm not currently involved in tense discussions for balance suggestions.



Aura Knight -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 0:50:25)

Maybe I messed up the wording. It's this topic which I'm concerned is ignored but I'll not push the issue as it's still good to have some place to voice thoughts on a topic of interest.

quote:

Maybe devs could look into getting freaky with item support somehow that doesn't translate END stat into means of more damage (EO, backlash, damage scaling off of END)?


I like this perspective. Some out of the box thinking could very well offer reason to invest in the stat beyond the thought to improve heals.



Lorekeeper -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 0:56:59)

My apologies if I misread; I misinterpreted the statement given that this is the thread that got more attention so far.



Branl -> RE: CHA vs. END needs further discussion. (4/2/2024 15:17:41)

I personally can't accept any suggestions to fix end "through itemization". End has been in this position ever since End stopped being assumed and nothing's changed. Charisma has such a massive itemization advantage that an itemization solution would just be indefinitely maintaining the status quo, which is unacceptable.

You would basically have to completely freeze Cha support (this likely includes pets and guests as well) for multiple years to focus on End items before an itemization issue could feasibly "fix" the issue of the lack of incentive to use End.

Not to say End doesn't have an itemization issue. Luck Drives can't really exist since a 50 advantage over a monster translates to + status potence (making status potence shields useless), but End shield drives are all permarare premium. The release of mainstat and cha scaled healing basically threw away the niche for healing End used to have. And the only significant support for End has been premium 100 dollar armor sets that are invariably going to have to be rebalanced since there's issues of the set paying "fake" penalties and paying too little for certain effects (Doomlight).



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