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10/4/2014 17:55:07   
Mr G W
Member

Obliterate and Dreadblade serve different purposes.

Obliterate is very reliable. You will *always* deal 390% damage no matter what.

Dreadblade is less reliable, you depend on your critical chances. You NEED high criticals for it to surpass obliterate which won't happen at lower levels.

If for some reason you are using accessories with lower or none critical chances (in favor to defensive bonuses for example) then obliterate will be better.
If you fought some enemies that greatly debuffed your critical, obliterate would be better.

Both skills are situational. Yes dreadblade will surpass obliterate at most situations, mostly because of how asininely high critical chances hit at high levels.
But that is not an issue with the skill itself or its mana cost.

The issue is being able to have such high crit chances in first place which undermines skills like obliterate. Unless 100% crit abilities worked in a way where any "excess" critical would be turned into damage or bonus (example if your critical is 70 then you only get +30 critical off the ability. The excess 70 would be turned into 70% extra damage, accuracy or something)

That being said: The issue is the skill or its mana cost. The issue is how high our critical chances go.

< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/4/2014 18:40:58 >
AQ DF  Post #: 426
10/4/2014 18:22:21   
Ash
Member


quote:

A reason? Of course there's a reason.
I don't have the time to be working out every combination of skills, every bit of math, and every little detail the instant that the class is released.
I was looking forward to getting the numbers on Monday or some other relatively early time in the week so I could see if there's any quick swaps with the numbers to make things more fluid.

This is the statement that I looked at when I thought of this.
You said that it could go on as long as it needs to, and I saw a change that I wanted to see only today.

You're upset about this and it's not fair for me to hold you to this, but then what's the point of prolonging testing if you want people to stop throwing ideas after Tuesday?

There's a difference. You've had over a WEEK now to test and push out ideas. I was fine with the multi because it was early enough that I could still fiddle with it. Now? No. No one else brought up core game play issues and were satisfied with it. Now is last minute bug fixes for live. You don't have to have the numbers to get a general idea when you have a static damage weapon. If you get some percents wrong I'll correct you just as I did with the other couple of people who posted. Players didn't used to get skill breakdowns at all, the job fell to YOU all to do it. I'm being generous by even giving them out at all. I could still go by the old way it was done and say, "figure it out on your own and give me feedback."

Why were numbers needed to go, "Minion just seems bland and might go better with Reap." Those are two of the easiest skills in the set to check. One I even upfront said was only for damage. Blaming this on me for not giving you exact numbers doesn't fly here.

quote:

My reason for believing that Dread should have a higher MP cost than Obliterate is because Obliterate is forced crit. Really, at any stage of the game, forced crits are a way to both increase damage, and to prevent damage from exceeding a barrier. Obliterate hits that barrier, and since Dread does not, Dread has the ability to go beyond 380 by as much as 42%.
You reach 30 crit at about level 50+. You reach 50 crit at 60, and 60 at 70. At 80, it's not unnatural to get to 70 crit, which essentially means that by the time you get past level 50, Dread will on average, constantly be stronger than Obliterate.

Because of this, Dread should be more expensive because the skills have the same MP cost, and therefore there is no reason not to use Dread in any situation that requires 35 MP.
Dread has higher damage potential, therefore it should have higher cost. That is my belief.

I will say this as many times as I have to, STOP focusing on crit. I'm tired of that being a huge issue with every single class. If it comes up and is the main focus again all revamps after that will be postponed until I finish the stat calculations and updates as a whole are done. Crit should not, and is not, factored into BASE damage ranges and costs. You can list out any string of numbers you want but until that point is hammered home and understood you aren't going to be winning that argument. Get off the Crit kick.

quote:

Crusade and Familiar on P/N serve different purposes.

Crusade is a high damage skill enabled to NDAs very early into training Paladin. It doesn't do anything else because it's NDA-enabled. Combined with the rest of the new NDA Paladin, it's a very good change.

On the other hand, Familiar's biggest use is in conjunction with Seed. Familiar has the highest damage increase on the class, so Seed - Boon - Final - Familiar deals some of the highest damage in the class's rotations. By getting Seed to land on a Mage / Warrior / Berserker, Familiar deals between 480 and 640 damage.

In short, Crusade is an NDA skill while Familiar is a big combo piece. They're significantly different from Minion, which is just a 175% damage skill.
If it was like the old Call Minion, which dealt fixed damage based on your DPS, then that would be different because it would have a distinction from all of the other skills.

Now, it doesn't.

Thank you for explaining to the person who designed the class how the skills work. The skills serve multiple functions, focusing only on one, as has happened in the past, doesn't make your argument correct. Again, stop tunneling into something and look at the big picture, how multiple play styles interact and THEN try and come up with reasoning. I have to when I'm designing the skills and where they go on the bar.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 427
10/4/2014 19:34:32   
Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph


I'm just going to step in right here.

Everyone, has had a good amount of time to play and test the class. Well over 10 pages of posts have this fact documented, thoroughly. When the VAST majority of players both on the forums and other social media have concluded that they are beyond satisfied with the class - then it is appropriate for a specific date to be slated for official release. There will always be a handful at the most who will not like everything about an armor/class. That is unfortunate. However, projects do have to move forward and this is one project that is. Otherwise, if given the chance, a state of uncertainty can exist without ever officially releasing a revamped item, which is never a good event for a game.

At this point, I'm going to strongly advise that any further bickering and flat-out arguing with game staff, over minor biases, stop.
AQ DF  Post #: 428
10/4/2014 20:47:59   
Chazero
Member

Ash, I think it's time to you had a bit of a rest. You have already done a lot and I think it's time that you took a either a few days or a week off. Maybe 2. BTW, do you have a deadline with these or do you do them on your own time? If you do these on your own time, then take that break. You deserve it.

I don't have any schedule for anything I do in DF. When it gets done it gets done. I give myself deadlines so you all get it in a reasonable time frame. ~Ash


Anyways, about the class, it's certainly more powerful than it was before. I managed to easily beat Envy in Part 1 of the Tomix Saga Finale. That laser attack of his didn't even hit me once. I will have to try it out on some of the other challenge monsters later to know of its capabilities first hand.

< Message edited by Ash -- 10/4/2014 20:54:49 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 429
10/5/2014 1:57:51   
Roxas45
Member

extreme alkiroth, impossible doom crawler, dr when

all done with the new DK.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 430
10/5/2014 3:25:47   
Snakezarr
Member

Now its time for you to fight meltface akriloth on hardmode with 2 level 1 guests :)
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 431
10/5/2014 4:19:37   
elite dark slayer
Member

Its out Monday? Non DA so I want to test it out.

_____________________________

DF MQ AQW  Post #: 432
10/5/2014 5:40:34   
Lanxy
Member

Sory for late resopnse, but in female version, her hair is lower then it has to be so you can see bold head as well...
Post #: 433
10/5/2014 6:43:43   
ProstheticFate
Member

Just to re emphasise, can't praise Ash enough for how well he has revamped DK. I think it might become my main class, it's very durable class that has really good offence and healing on the side, not much to say it for it's weak points like for going up against someone such as Dr.When on hard mode since he's very unlikely to miss and does high damage at the same time but even that be easily solved with high water resist equips if you where to look around in the accessories section in this forum.
Post #: 434
10/5/2014 6:52:44   
DarkLore
Member

I agree! Say goodbye DMK! I probably will still use DMK for quicker drop farming, but DK has me sold!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 435
10/5/2014 7:34:57   
99th Dracopyre
Member

Well, I did say I didn't want anything to be changed with the Death Knight, but the changes now are good without replacing much from the original.
I wonder if the Death Knight items will be getting a revamp too? Hehe.
Good job DF team, the armors are looking so good now!

~Draco
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 436
10/5/2014 7:36:53   
Roxas45
Member

meltface with two doomlords difficult but doable
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 437
10/5/2014 7:39:55   
Mr G W
Member

quote:

I wonder if the Death Knight items will be getting a revamp too? Hehe.


They did get revamped. You can get new ones by talking to malifact (select items option).

There are level 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 items. And there are Non-DA, DA and DC versions.

You will need undead slayer badges to get the level 40 items.
To upgrade them to non-DA items you will need shadow essences (made from braughlmurk binding and shadow bone shards).
To upgrade them to DA items you will need umbral essences (made from shadow essences and unlucky doom essences)

Not only they provide decent stats, but also increase the damage of one of the death knight's skills.

< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/5/2014 7:43:55 >
AQ DF  Post #: 438
10/5/2014 8:07:04   
99th Dracopyre
Member

Oh gosh. I didn't know that! (I was on a college break from DF)
Can't wait for DK's full release. Will definitely save it as my default armor and spend some inventory space to keep the DK items.

~Draco
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 439
10/5/2014 8:38:56   
NatsuDragneels
Member

@Mr G W: Also, those items had darkness and light resistances.
DF AQW  Post #: 440
10/5/2014 9:01:47   
99th Dracopyre
Member

I don't know if it's too late to say this, but I hope they revamp how the Death Knight stands. It'll be so cool if he stands like when you fight the Death Knight.

~Draco
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 441
10/5/2014 9:06:32   
Mordred
Member

That would require changing every animation, which isn't in their scope of time at the moment.
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 442
10/5/2014 10:06:07   
elite dark slayer
Member

Especially since it supposed to come out tomorrow. Why does everyone have a problem with its stance? Seems fine to me. If I have a problem its art will take a little getting used to, its a bit too... ornate if you ask me. Not bad, but, I'm one of those people who enjoys simplicity.
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 443
10/5/2014 10:29:52   
NatsuDragneels
Member

Doesn't important to me. All I want is just the skills revamp.
DF AQW  Post #: 444
10/5/2014 10:31:48   
Mr G W
Member

Yup.

Sure the class animations do not look as flashy as the most recent classes, but the skill revamp is what matters. The new look is nice too.
AQ DF  Post #: 445
10/5/2014 14:07:19   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


All of the Classes from the Necropolis (Death Knight in particular) don't really scream* "revamp my animations" to me, funnily enough. Their animations are not as flashy, but I feel like they work.

* Not that the rest of my armor ever screams things to me on a daily basis. Nope, nope nope.

_____________________________

AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 446
10/5/2014 14:40:13   
plue344
Member

With Necromancer we get a very tough defense, with Palandin we get an unrelenting offense, and with DeathKnight we get a very offensive class with lots of defense.

I feel that Deathknight is a great combination of both classes because if Deathknight had the best skills of Paladin and Necro then we would never use them as DK would be too OP! XD

_____________________________

http://www.dragonfable.com/df-chardetail.asp?id=9002189
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=100+tall,+500+wide+skeleton&start=24&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=ms-palm-webOS&channel=iss&biw=1024&bih=686&tbm=isch&tbnid=qLqaoZGZus8YTM:&imgrefurl=http://twistedphy
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 447
10/5/2014 16:14:04   
pitties
Member

Actually, I would say necro is full defense and Deathknight is full offense and PALADIN is the hybrid of the two playing styles.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 448
10/5/2014 16:33:57   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


Necromancer is undoubtedly the most defensive of the three. No contest. But between Death Knight and Paladin... I think that's a little more difficult to classify.

I feel like it would be more accurate to say they both dabble in a "hybrid" playstyle that gives them greater defensive capability than most other Classes cut from the offensive cloth (SoulWeaver and Riftwalker, for example) while exchanging that for lower attack power or a moveset that requires some set-up to deal damage. Death Knight, for example, is much weaker without Inspire Weakness and Soul Reap and relies on those to achieve the enemy-crushing Crits that Classes like Riftwalker can use at the very start of the battle.

One might be a little more defensive than the other, but I think their abilities cause them both to still fall within the "hybrid" category. They are just different hybrids.

< Message edited by Faerdin -- 10/5/2014 16:35:18 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 449
10/5/2014 16:39:40   
Mr G W
Member

I'd say its more like this:

- Necromancer's defense focuses on preventing hits and reducing damage for the times you do get hit by using skills that lower the enemy damage and accuracy, 2 stuns and able heal off the enemy's attack by increasing resistances to above 100.
Its offense relies on damage overtime effects and medium powered skills, mainly by the 3 damage over time skills + passive.

- Paladin's has a large choice of offensive skills, some which are element locked thus becoming stronger as a compensation. It's defense relies on the 4 healing skills it has and its passive.
Also has skills to increase damage dealt and decrease damage taken which work for both offense and defense.

- Death knight ends up being a mix of both: Has great offense skills (dreadblade and armor attack specially), has 2 healing skills + passive and is also good at preventing damage from enemies by making use of 2 stuns and lowering their accuracy and damage.
In the end it can have similar play styles like paladin or necromancer, but not as good as those: It trades effectiveness for versatility.

I think death knight achieved its purpose of being a hybrid class: Playing as death knight feels like i'm playing with both classes at once.


< Message edited by Mr G W -- 10/5/2014 16:48:28 >
AQ DF  Post #: 450
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