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RE: =DF= DeathKnight Discussion Thread

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9/28/2014 8:48:37   
mahasamatman
Member

Great job, Ash. a lot of paladinish healing powers, modified to life-draining. really good for long time battles. (although slightly vampiric).
good damage, but not OP. nice, useful debuffs and 2 stuns.

points for improvement:
the "death knight items" skill was cool, because of sir malifact's items... but i think it kinda lost it. also, it becomes a bit useless in higher levels.
there should either be more (and more powerful) deathknight items, or the skill should be based on something else (as Faerdin suggested- the amount of darkness equipment you wear).
EDIT: i didn't know there were new, powerful DK items. thats great.

why the cooldown on the necrotic presence shift? i think we should be able to change it freely (especially if the count restarts when we shift). if it does not restart, then yeah, its fair.
the passive buff itself was a great idea, but i think instead of making it stronger than each of the original classes, it would be better to make it considerably weaker and to have both HoT and DoT.
(a deathknight is not as good in healing as a paladin, or in destroying life as a necromancer).

It's a great improvement, anyway, both in terms of power and of flavor.
EDIT: just found out both my points for improvement were improved. DK is perfect.

< Message edited by mahasamatman -- 9/28/2014 8:56:54 >

_____________________________

His followers called him Mahasamatman, and claimed he was a god.
He never claimed to be a god, but then, he never claimed not to be a god.
Circumstances being what they were, neither admission could be of any benefit.
Silence, though, could.
DF  Post #: 201
9/28/2014 9:52:26   
NatsuDragneels
Member

Just leveled up from 44 to 46! Whew, that was so insane farming EXP.

4 level left so I can upgrade these items .-.
DF AQW  Post #: 202
9/28/2014 9:56:36   
ProstheticFate
Member

I'm not sure if its worth comparing DK to its predecessor classes the pally and the necro. The Death Knight, IMO feels its set in the middle in between the pally and the necromancer. Both DK and pally have similar healing skills except pally has the full heal to fall back on while the necromancer has Shroud of the undead which gives the necromancer better longevity than death knight's heals alone.

This is just purely my opinion. I'm sure Ash was smart enough to not revamp death knight to the point where it doesn't give you no reason to use the necromancer or pally, the necromancer and pally have slight advantages over death knight as I mentioned above, the only thing that I know for sure death knight can do better than what pally and the necromancer can do is offer superior damage output combined with some high DoT.
Post #: 203
9/28/2014 9:57:23   
Lord GrimDusk
Member

One request: can we get the DC items at lower tiers too?
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 204
9/28/2014 10:06:38   
Ash
Member
quote:

You are too quiet about it. People who don't play every week and don't check the forums regularly could easily overlook how much is happening with the class revamps.

The classes that are available for testing, go live and/or have new items released really should be mentioned in the Design Notes in my opinion. I know you have tons of things on your plate, and writing DNs also takes time, but I really think this stuff needs to be broadcasted more.

I've chosen not to. *shrugs* I really don't think it needs to be really broadcast simply because it's something that should have happened anyway. I'm just playing catchup for things that were promised or necessary. There's not really a need to go "Look what Ash is doing!" all the time. If someone doesn't play for a few weeks and comes back to see a bunch of "new" classes and new guests and such then they'll enjoy the game more even if they don't know how they all got there. That's all I care about.

quote:

The armor skill with no dk pieces deals like a normal attack (+-150%). The armor attack with the full dk set does +-300%.

Attack is 140%, Empower is 150% + 20% per DK item equipped so 270% with all 6 of them.

quote:

I was fighting Zadd from Z, targeting the second golem. I had my aura set to heal, but when it autoswitched to Zadd, I had both auras active. sorry to tear the duct tape, Ash Q.Q

That shouldn't be happening. It's set not to apply if you've got the HoT on you or a DoT is in effect. I'll figure out what's going on.

quote:

Hey Ash, would it be possible to have a simple way to upgrade the DC items? I'm level 60 and spent all my slots on them an don't want to waste them when I get to 80?

We can't do DC "upgrades" like that as it messes with the tracking system. =/

quote:

I love the new art up close, but like someone else said, it looks brown from a distance. xD

That's scaling in the game itself to make the armor "smaller" looking in zoomed out places. The brown you're seeing is actually the gold trim on the armor scaled "larger". It's a weird and odd thing the game does. You can kinda see it on other items if you find a few that are drawn like that.

quote:

right now the new coil does 5% dmg/heal every turn for 5 turns. a total of 25%.
is it going to be broken if we had a higher heal/dmg per turn but about the same if not even a bit weaker overall dmg/heal. just decrease the turns of the effect.
what about 8% dmg/heal for 3 turns, total of 24%. or 10% per turn, like the current dk, but for 2 turns and 20% overall dmg/heal.


Not broken, it would just be the same as Necro's at that point. 3 turns is the shortest time frame I've found to actually do one of these at a nice rate. I can make it divide out 25% over 3 turns and round it off so it could keep the same amount. Is it to make it do the damage/heal faster or is there a different reason as to the shorter duration?

quote:

This is just purely my opinion. I'm sure Ash was smart enough to not revamp death knight to the point where it doesn't give you no reason to use the necromancer or pally, the necromancer and pally have slight advantages over death knight as I mentioned above, the only thing that I know for sure death knight can do better than what pally and the necromancer can do is offer superior damage output combined with some high DoT.

That was the point. No class should totally chomp on another in terms of its gimmicks and fun things. Pally and Necro are powerful in their own and even though DK is a combo it's not "better" at doing them than the originals. It's its own item, similar to the things that go into it, but not the same. Took a bit to get the right mixture though.

Lord GrimDusk - At level 40?

< Message edited by Ash -- 9/28/2014 10:09:04 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 205
9/28/2014 10:11:14   
Lord GrimDusk
Member

^Ash: Well back to the lowest that the DeathKnight items scaled down to would be smarter I think but it's my opinion so you don't have to listen. One question: will all of the DK set that isn't DC get the art update too?

< Message edited by Lord GrimDusk -- 9/28/2014 10:12:28 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 206
9/28/2014 10:13:30   
Ash
Member


 Ah, I can see about putting a level 40 set in then since that's the "base" level. The Non-DA items are recolored versions of the original DK items to match the new armor coloring. The DA and DC items are the same artwork wise.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 207
9/28/2014 10:14:49   
WHITE DRAGON MAGE
Member

Leon Shadowhart: Nothing surpasses the necrotic sword of doom as a darkness weapon but there is a void weapon a fair bit stronger, the grandmaster weapons at the pvp battle spire.

Anyway on topic I think as most people predicted this class is basially the same as the ice bound revenant class, but I think the minion summoning's axe looked a lot better coming from the ice bound revenant, it just had a lot more detail where as the death knight's version was very plain and to be honest a bit lazy of the artists, unless they intended the minion to look more like the undead enemies where it doesn't have a weapon that looks like it belongs to us and not in the hands of a common undead skeleton.

< Message edited by WHITE DRAGON MAGE -- 9/28/2014 10:23:46 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 208
9/28/2014 10:15:29   
Lord GrimDusk
Member

Level 40 is the base level? Huh. Also, how do I find the DA items, I can only find the DC items.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 209
9/28/2014 10:16:36   
Zeldax
Member
 

 You can find the DA and Non DA ones by clicking the Upgrade Items button.
Post #: 210
9/28/2014 10:17:00   
Lord GrimDusk
Member

Oh ok.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 211
9/28/2014 11:00:23   
DarkLore
Member

Hey ash. Could we eventually get a Sir Malifact guest. Also who wrote the descriptions for the new DK items! I just love them! Also who wrote Sir Malifact's items dialouge? He seems much nicer for some reason. Is there also any hint as to how he knew about other DK's? Let alone how he was able to leave his crypt to find all the new DK items? Maybe he just strolled down doomwood as his undead vessel! LOL!

< Message edited by DarkLore -- 9/28/2014 11:02:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 212
9/28/2014 11:08:11   
Ash
Member


 I might be able to make a guest out of the monster version but that would be a LONG time from now as there's a bunch of stuff I have to get done and would need to get a new guest like that approved from Geo.

I did all the updates for the items, town, etc. So all those descriptions and dialog are my work.

While the crypt is his "home" in a way, whenever someone finds his items he can wander around. He can find journals and records and items to increase his knowledge just like any other being. If he gets injured he has to head back to the crypt or he'll disappear entirely. (While the items are basically his Phylactery's, kinda, in that's how he manifests physically, he's also tied to the crypt) Time frames are kind of a weird thing to get right in DF so while NPC's always appear to be there when we go to them they aren't *always* there. Some are off doing things like Val hunting for treasure all the time.

< Message edited by Ash -- 9/28/2014 11:12:22 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 213
9/28/2014 11:20:21   
DarkLore
Member

I don't intend to pile on more on you, but would there be a possibility to have Sir Malifact as a character slot? I bet everyone's been hoping we'd be able to play through his backstory so we know how everything happened. The journal is a good read though. It just would be so cool some day to play the journal's scenario! I still laugh a bit at the whoops! at the end!
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 214
9/28/2014 11:25:58   
Dracojan
Member

quote:

Not broken, it would just be the same as Necro's at that point. 3 turns is the shortest time frame I've found to actually do one of these at a nice rate. I can make it divide out 25% over 3 turns and round it off so it could keep the same amount. Is it to make it do the damage/heal faster or is there a different reason as to the shorter duration?
please please please do so. yes, its to make both stronger. burst heal is more valuable. 5% hp heal can easily be lower than the dmg we get in a single turn. so 8.3% would definitely help more. also the dmg from the skill will be less spread out and better overall against lower hp monsters and bosses.
aside from making the skill a bit more useful overall i also enjoy it more when i see one bigger number than lots small ones.
and also, 3 is my fav number so yeah... id love it if you can make it a 3 turn dot/hot. the high mana cost and cd can stay the same to make up for it.
DF  Post #: 215
9/28/2014 11:26:08   
Zeldax
Member
 

 While I do like the idea, I feel like that isn't necessary right now because Sir Malifact and his story are pretty minor, unlike Ash and Alexander's stories. Though Alexander's was a whole lot more important than Ash's because it told the story of how Xan became… Xan… and it helped us understand Book 2.

Believe me, I really like that idea, I just feel like it isn't really needed right now.

< Message edited by Zeldax -- 9/28/2014 11:27:46 >
Post #: 216
9/28/2014 11:29:54   
DarkLore
Member

I just thought of it because the journal didn't give us much to go on. Remember that several of the pages were torn out or otherwise illegible. Sure it was more of a slap in the face that we helped Sir Malifact come back to unlife, but not a bad idea.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 217
9/28/2014 13:27:24   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 @Dracojan: It would also make Dark Rite a "burstier" ability since you could fit all that DoT damage within a single use of Inspire Weakness.

_____________________________
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 218
9/28/2014 14:41:00   
Dread97
Member

I have to say this revamp (along with all the other ones) are just amazing. I can't really help with the balancing as I am not good with numbers and the like and it seems to be bug free as far as I can tell. The only pet peeve I have with this armor is the fact that it does not remember if the passive is a HoT or a DoT, it always resets to a DoT, but I am going to assume that's a game engine issue and is not "fixable". Anyways good job Ash. You Da Real MVP.
Post #: 219
9/28/2014 14:47:08   
Edorath
Member
 

 Ok, now that i have all the items for my level, i can accurately tell how the class is, and it's AWESOME! This is one of the strongest classes i've ever used! I am in love both with the skills AND the art for the new set! The only thing that seems a bit weird to me is a Death Knight drinking a health potion, but that's it. Besides the potion thing (which is not THAT bad), the class seems perfect to me. Also, one question about DK's artifact: Will it count as a DK item, and so work with the Empower Armor skill?
AQ AQW  Post #: 220
9/28/2014 14:58:43   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 This likely explains why -- unlike Sir Malifact and other Death Knights -- we can drink Health Potions.

quote:

Malifact's Ghost: While you are not cursed as I and many other Death Knight's were, you can still use some of our equipment.

So Ash settled the debate once and for all. Death Knight is a canonical Class. We are not undead. :)

Edit: By the way, I loved the tale of Lord Zeclem! It reminded me of WoW's Prince Arthas, and it's nice to have a neat little example of minimalist storytelling woven into my equipment.

< Message edited by Faerdin -- 9/28/2014 15:01:01 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 221
9/28/2014 15:38:48   
Romulus
Member

Just a curious question Ash. How come you removed the Curse ability from the DeathKnight class?
Post #: 222
9/28/2014 15:45:23   
Edorath
Member
 

 He removed it because you either lost too little health and barely gained a bonus or you lost too much hp to obtain a big bonus. As you may inderstand, none of these options would actually be useful.
AQ AQW  Post #: 223
9/28/2014 15:46:39   
Faerdin
Rune Knight


 Here is the post in which he provided the answer Edorath just mentioned:

quote:

Curse is no longer a part of the DK skill set because trying to balance self damage for more damage output was a massive headache. It ended up making you do gobs more damage than you should be doing while basically signing away a death warrant for yourself or you would do pitiful bonus damage while losing an almost unnoticeable amount of health. It didn't work, even at a middle range or health for damage, so I scraped it for something else.

Edit: Just realized that keeping Curse would also be contradictory, since Sir Malifact explicitly states we are not cursed. :)

< Message edited by Faerdin -- 9/28/2014 15:50:15 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 224
9/28/2014 15:53:38   
Edorath
Member
 

 I realized than our char looks quite older in close-up scenes when using DK. Also the red glow from the eyes is still there when it closes it's eyes, and it kinda looks like make-up
AQ AQW  Post #: 225
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