RE: =DF= Technomancer Armor Discussion Thread


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8/25/2014 13:26:26

Dracojan
Member

Btw the 30% boost is added after the 80% dmg attack of the tog( rabit byte)

if a 100-100 weapon has 100base and 100 random then youve lost me. sine there is no random anything when you deal constant dmg. but ill keep that in mind. id love if you exaplain it more thoroughly.
i know that df doesnt use the base/random dmg but min max. idk if rolight is calling min- base and max-random. is that the case? actually not rolith but rather zhoom and artix, since they made df the way it is.

< Message edited by Dracojan -- 8/25/2014 14:03:27 >

DF	Post #: 51

8/25/2014 13:30:02

Ash
Member

Basically what happens is the game looks at the damage range and picks anything between those numbers. If it's 5-10 it picks from 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. If a weapon is 10-10 it picks from 10. There's not a "oh hey I'm going to have 10 base and 7 random to get 10-17." It's a straight, what you see is what you get, in terms of how damage ranges are picked.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/25/2014 13:31:32 >

AQW

Post #: 52

8/25/2014 14:00:10

Dracojan
Member

i c. then its better just to use the min max dmg when we talk then :D.

well for me techno is like the perfect support for a bigger team. it has so many controlling skills and with the mana reduction skill that it has, also with low cd, the class can effectively drain the enemy of all mana and keep the enemy stunned for a looong time and also reapply those stuns very often. the defence of the class is a bit more complex than say dl but its very effective against any enemy. especially since it has immobility resist nerf of 30%. and thats a lot. i cant really call its 3 multi skills very significant since there are classes with one or 2 multi skills but with 0cd and same or even higher dmg. mage fury for example and necro multi. the overall dmg of the class is low but the strength in its effects is high.
the only thing that bothers me a bit is that mana grenade is now weaker than before. and also the random dmg of one of the skills, but thats purely because i dont like random things.

DF	Post #: 53

8/25/2014 15:30:23

The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

Min/Max and Base/Random means the same thing here.

quote:

- Multi attacks count as 3 attacks in 1. Regardless of if all hits hit they are counted as (damage per single enemy * 3) in terms of how much damage they count as since you're only meant to use them against multiple enemies. This also means that they detract from the total amount of damage that any other skills on the class are allowed to have. This is why the original Necro had that...weird and slightly gimmicky bit of code to lower the amount of damage to all enemies over 1. It didn't work well.

- Any effects placed on them count as 3 effects for the total number allowed per class. If, for example, it's only allowed 10 effects you just dropped down to 7.

I did count multis as triple the damage.

quote:

Techno in 5 turns against 3 enemies:
Turn 1: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))
Turn 2: Photon Bow (3 hits of 140%)
Turn 3: Static (3 hits of 120-140%, average of 130%)
Turn 4: Black Hole (3 hits of 125%)
Turn 5: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200))

Now to put this into numbers, assuming a weapon with 100 base 100 random and and no attacks fail, but 0% crit rate unless guaranteed...
Turn 1: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200) = 225)
Turn 2: Photon Bow (3 * 140 = 420)
Turn 3: Static (3 * 130 = 390)
Turn 4: Black Hole (3 * 125 = 375)
Turn 5: Mana Grenades (100 + 170 / 5 + 100*(2000/2200) = 225)

Monster 1: 845
Monster 2: 395
Monster 3: 395
Effective total damage of 1635, split over 5 turns to equal 327
Adding in 70% crit...
Monster 1: 1436
Monster 2: 671.5
Monster 3: 671.5
Effective total damage of 2779, split over 5 turns to equal 555.8

quote:

- All classes are allowed one, spammable, upfront damage skill that is not tied to an automatic crit. As the overall damage output of Techno isn't high, Grenades is it. Usually it's on a 1 turn cooldown but because of the upper damage range it has a slightly extended cooldown.

I'm saying that Mana Grenades is the wrong choice for the designated spam skill.
You stated that TM is meant to be multi-target semi control. That means to me that the class should have its spammable skills be in line with its purpose.
Right now, that's not what's happening.
Right now, TM appears to be a class that tries to do burst damage, and just so happens to have extra multis in it. Except that doesn't matter, Necro has a 0-cooldown multi that does the same job as Photon Bow, and Static, and Black Hole combined. The fact that Static has +300 BTH or Black Hole stuns the enemy is irrelevant, because when you use a multi, you don't care if it inflicts an effect, the purpose is damage across 3 monsters. You're not inflicting 1185% damage, you're inflicting 395% damage 3 times. That's different. The fact that DF doesn't pool hp (the way AQ does) means that 1185% and 3 * 395% are different.

For all that matters, we could say that Black Hole deals 1 million damage.
There is no monster that you are intended to defeat that has more than 300k hp.
Every point of damage that exceeds the hp of the strongest monster that the skill is intended to be used against is wasted.
That's why I did not say that TM had an effective damage output of 2779 over 5 turns, because it doesn't have a damage output of 2779 over 5 turns, it has an output of 1436, 671, and 671.

quote:

Work those into your number comparisons as they are weighted in it. The biggest hint I can give you of the *right* question to ask for getting Force's damage upped is look at the "Multi attacks count as 3 attacks in 1" part and go from there. Trying to give you the right way to ask for things instead of doing a bunch of number crunching that will get a no once again.

I don't have the slightest idea what to say, because I'm in the dark for any requirements that are not openly stated.
I gave burst damage comparisons for 4 different classes, and TM was last because I was only calculating against bosses.
If I was to do the same for the best multi classes in game by purely spamming their multis, we get the following:

Ascendant:
[140 +5% + 140 +10% + 140 +15% + 140 +20% + 140 +25%] * 3 = 2415% damage
= 805% per enemy
Necromancer:
[130 + x + 130 + 2x + 130 + 3x + 130 + 4x + 130 +4x] * 3 = 2286% damage
= 762% per enemy
Techno:
80 +30% + [140 +30% + 130 +30% + 125 +30% + 140 +30%] * 3 = 2190.5% damage
= 730% per enemy

Even if I was to use all of its multis as quickly as possible, Technomancer still doesn't beat any other class in its weight group other than Dragonslayer and Paladin.

Unless I'm using the wrong formulas, there is virtually no circumstance where Technomancer would be used over any other class.
Due to the lack of monsters that strategically use MP in battle, there actually are 0 monsters to fight against where Techno is better than anything else, even after the revamp.

Unlike Necromancer (which did a very good job of knowing its purpose), TM has no important niche, it has no best situation, it does not fulfill any role.

AQW

Post #: 54

8/25/2014 15:37:44

Ash
Member

If you want more damage on ANY other skill than your multi's get less damage. Plain and simple. If you really want adjustments I'll make adjustments. They'll go live tomorrow.

Several additional points.

- Ascendant is one tier above TM. It should not be used for comparisons. If you did, it doesn't count.
- Necro's multi has no effects, and it only has one skill for that, while also being a mage track class, allowing it to have no cooldown. Techno has more than one and all have effects so it does not get to benefit from that.
- What other skill should be the spammable skill then? If you say one of the multi's, no. See above.
- No one uses the multi's for effects? Really? YOU may not use them for their effects but that doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Don't use that as a reason. It's a personal opinion, not a fact.
- It still COUNTS the same. Multi attack = multiple attacks in one. Regardless of how you want to word it your max output is 3x the listed damage.
- Just because there is "wasted" damage doesn't mean it's wasted. It DOES have that effective damage output. Just because it kills the monster and there's overkill doesn't change the numbers.

< Message edited by Ash -- 8/25/2014 16:09:10 >

AQW

Post #: 55

8/25/2014 15:46:13

Melissa4Bella
AmeSylph

Technomancer is a storyline-related class. Why *should* it be better than anything else (not including base, Angler, etc.)? Most players actually want a more balanced class.

Balancing these classes into a modicum of rightness means that the OP days are over. We understand that change can be disconcerting to some players, and that is exactly why Ash has been in and out of all the class threads, explaining in minute detail what is being done and why. Some players might not like the final product, and that's fine. Not every player will love every armor, that was true before updates were started and it will be true after everything is complete.

*Edit to add*
Over time, players have been lulled into the idea that all classes (and even some joke classes) should breeze through a quest and OHKO everything. That's called unbalanced, which is why these revamps are being done. OHKO's just about everything with one click shouldn't happen. Techno is now at a place were players can actually use a ... strategy. That doesn't mean that a class is underpowered or that it is junk or that it is not "your class". It simply means that it's becoming a more sensible armor. It will take some getting used to, yes. But might as well accept that changes are happening that over the long-haul will be beneficial overall to the game and more importantly, to the player.

< Message edited by Melissa4Bella -- 8/25/2014 16:10:27 >

Post #: 56

8/25/2014 16:23:30

The_element
Member

I have to say that I'm very happy with where classes are going. Before there was simply endless power creep, it was expected all classes should one-shot everything and that most bosses should not take any longer than 5 turns. I think, to an extent, it has to do with Rolith's vision of classes- he wanted all classes to be VERY offensive with little defence, whereas Ash wants there to be greater balance of defence and offence. From now on, classes will be comparable to one another (due to Ash's use of class tiers) and have the own individual gimmicks i.e. technomancer will be a very 'stun-ny' class. I know change is hard, but if classes take this new direction there won't be endless power creep as there was before, like look at riftwalker, when combined with high crit it can one-shot most bosses and look at how base soul weaver doing 450% dmg on 1 mob with banishment was considered acceptable. I feel this new approach was very necessary to balance classes and the game as a whole.

@Ash- Can you do me a big favour and buff Impossible doom crawler by making it do evil damage, increasing its dmg by 50% and increasing its bth to 40% of the player's level? I say this, because it will make testing any class's peak defensive capabilities more easier (as necessary for techno) and give a decent challenge to players.

< Message edited by The_element -- 8/25/2014 16:37:35 >

Post #: 57

8/25/2014 16:31:07

Azan
Member

After testing Technomancer, I can say I like the result. Very much. I remember my secondary when she was non-DA. Technomancer was her class, and being a lefty forced me to have a real combat startegy instead of ROFLstomping everything like I do sometimes with my main. I'm glad Technomancer has kept that spirit with the revamp. It's even better now, with three multis (one even having a decent stun chance AND good damage) and all these better skills (a big plus for new Nanobots having both an instant heal and a HoT).

So, a big congrats to Ash for this awesome revamp. Of all the revamps it's the one I like most.

Also, due to it being restricted to lvl30+, I think Technomancer could be in Tier 2.25 or something like that. Its skills are nice enough to deserve Tier 2.25.

< Message edited by Azan -- 8/25/2014 16:32:08 >

Post #: 58

8/26/2014 2:59:44

trinityfrost
Member

@Ash For the mana grenades damage formula does it subtract the 25mp cost of the skill before, or after it calculates damage?

And on a less relevant not, why was Iota the skill changed to a multi? Though it does have a very large animation wouldn't mana grenades have made more sense? It does fire three grenades, one for each mook, and they explode which just screams splash damage.

< Message edited by trinityfrost -- 8/26/2014 4:29:01 >

DF	Post #: 59

8/26/2014 3:12:34

NagisaXIkari
Member

The_element: Powercreep is still inevitable. Weapons and enemies are getting very much stronger as times goes on. And crit is still the end all be all stat.

Twenty bucks and you get the most accessible weapon in the game that trumps most everything barring one weapon and that's because it takes an ungodly amount of time to get.

And if that doesn't suit you, get the final upgrade for your Doom weapon. Barring Dark resistance you have one of the strongest, most accessible weapons available. And unless stated otherwise they're bound to get stronger due to plot signifigance and possibly legacy support.

And the boss discussion thread that's somewhere around the board demonstrates a level of powercreep with bosses. Personally I didn't have issues with Dr. When (he up and ran away from me) or Mysterious G, but I did ManaCrest who is another common complaint.

DF	Post #: 60

8/26/2014 10:30:27

Sakurai the Cursed
Member

@Nagisa - But, as I think you're aware, Crit is soon going to be reduced if Ash's proposal is accepted (and hopefully it will be), which will result in far less powercreep. Specific bosses who are difficult hardly count as powercreep though; they're only noticeable because they're exceptions and it's not as if they were all recent things either, which means that for the most part the only creep going on with bosses is HP (which actually can result in less powerful bosses, since large HP + large damage = bad), largely due to Crit.

Anyway, I've played with Techno some more, and I have to say, whatever balance issues there may be, the class is simply fun to play, and I think that's what really matters the most. It's very versatile, you always have something you can do other than pure damage, and I find myself actually using all the skills, even all the multis which I see people complaining about. And not just as part of a specific omnipresent combo, like, for example, Ascendant, but each for different situations: Fighting a no-weakness enemy? Throw down a Table and use whatever I like best of the two elements; Three weak enemies? Just a Bow and maybe a Static will do; But against multiple stronger enemies or a boss with minions? Rabid Byte and Event Horizon time, then Bow and/or Static. Of course, against a single enemy spamming Mana Grenades, Drill and Overclock is pretty much the go-to strategy, but even then what you do in between those skills will vary depending on what you're facing.

So, all in all, I personally think this revamp was done brilliantly. Great job Ash! :P

AQW

Epic

Post #: 61

8/28/2014 5:58:38

mahasamatman
Member

Mana grenades has been really weakened (from about 295% as a first attack to about 205%). yes, i know it was very powerful for the class, and that we have to pay for strong multies, but mana grenades was pretty much the reason that it was a 30+ lvl class and that free players use it a lot. could be nice if it was at least 1.5* or 1.25* % of mana left (between the new 1* and the old 2*), with the wis bonus (which rarely exceed 30 unless you put heavily into it and hold a very high level.) that way, the dmg of grenades as first attack would be around 260% or 235%.

is the current new abilities certain or it might be changed before the class is released?

EDIT: also, free players gain access to only 1 multi, so it's a bit unfair to lower their damage with a good ability for something they can't use.

ANOTHER EDIT: crit is an integral part of the game. Ash wants balance between defense and offense, which means there will still be offensive classes that need high crit. in my opinion, after the revamps, if crit is reduced in importance offensive classes will become much weaker.

< Message edited by mahasamatman -- 8/28/2014 6:20:35 >

_____________________________

His followers called him Mahasamatman, and claimed he was a god.
He never claimed to be a god, but then, he never claimed not to be a god.
Circumstances being what they were, neither admission could be of any benefit.
Silence, though, could.

DF	Post #: 62

8/29/2014 14:49:53

tthorn4
Member

Small question. Are there any plans to fix the arm skin tone issue?

AQW

Post #: 63

9/1/2014 0:27:17

Hemabody
Member

I don't know if this is a bug or something , but when I use "Table Of Elements" on a neutral creature (No weakness or risistance) it does nothing

AQW	Post #: 64

9/1/2014 12:29:50

Silver
Helpful!

@tthorn4 I thought the same after first using technomancer, but then I noticed that it was more of a glove or something worn below the technomancer gauntlet rather than your skin.

quote:

Balancing these classes into a modicum of rightness means that the OP days are over. We understand that change can be disconcerting to some players, and that is exactly why Ash has been in and out of all the class threads, explaining in minute detail what is being done and why. Some players might not like the final product, and that's fine. Not every player will love every armor, that was true before updates were started and it will be true after everything is complete.

To be honest, I didn't find technomancer THAT OP or anything. Its best skill was probably debug, but that had its own problems. It would have worked GREAT in PvP if it worked the way it was SUPPOSED to, because apparently, PvP chars can still use mana attacks despite having no mana. Also, not too many monsters USE mana.
I don't really see a huge difference between the original class and the recoded class. I don't know why though, I don't think I'm using it wrong or anything =P

Post #: 65

9/1/2014 12:39:49

Azan
Member

It's quite normal not to see such a huge difference between old and new Technomancer, even if new is quite better. Technomancer's abilities were not rebuilt from scratch like Dragonslayer's will be. Technomancer was one of the best, if not the best, pre-9.0 class, it didn't need as much change as classes like Dragonslayer, Deathknight, Pirate, Ninja or Paladin.

Post #: 66

9/1/2014 12:59:06

Flamehead 12
Member

will technomancer ever be a mage class (like all mancers should be)

_____________________________

AQW

Epic

Post #: 67

9/1/2014 13:48:25

Ash
Member

quote:

also, free players gain access to only 1 multi, so it's a bit unfair to lower their damage with a good ability for something they can't use.

I'm sorry? I'm counting the old multi's and non-DA's had a grand total of ZERO before. Instead of going "why didn't you give non-DA's more" why not do it correctly and say "Thank you Ash, for giving non-DA's a multi when they didn't have one before."

quote:

ANOTHER EDIT: crit is an integral part of the game. Ash wants balance between defense and offense, which means there will still be offensive classes that need high crit. in my opinion, after the revamps, if crit is reduced in importance offensive classes will become much weaker.

I'm not going to go into the math another time. Short answer, NO offensive class NEEDS crit. You as a player WANT crit. There is a very large difference. When everything is done you won't really notice anything different except "oh...I'm not doing crits as often."

quote:

@tthorn4 I thought the same after first using technomancer, but then I noticed that it was more of a glove or something worn below the technomancer gauntlet rather than your skin.

This

quote:

I don't know if this is a bug or something , but when I use "Table Of Elements" on a neutral creature (No weakness or risistance) it does nothing

I'll check and see why and fix that.

Flamehead 12 - Umm, it is? A "mancer" class has such a wide variety of definitions that there is no one "this is what a mancer SHOULD do."

AQW

Post #: 68

9/1/2014 13:52:19

Lord Ferno
Member

Wait can anyone explain what elements does table work on? I'm not quite understanding the fact that it decreases the defence towards 2 elements and would like to know if it is the first 2 you attack with or random.

Post #: 69

9/1/2014 15:06:56

Azan
Member

To quote Ash from the first page of this thread:

quote:

8. Table of Elements
130% damage

Picks 2 of the following elements and nerfs the foes resistance to it by -25 for 10 turns.

Metal, Silver, Stone, Energy, Water, Fire, Ice, Darkness, Light, Wind, Wood, Nature

It cannot pick the same element twice on the same use. (No Water/Water for -50 total) It CAN pick the same element on multiple uses. (Water/Fire on the first use and then Water/Darkness on the second)

Post #: 70

9/1/2014 18:35:42

Neliux
Member

Words can't describe how much I love the Event Horizon and Table of Element skills, there aren't many skills in this game able to stun multiple enemies so this is a godsend, and the table of element is just pretty cool, I didn't know such an effect could be done so I'm surprised.

Anyway, the class excels at dealing with multiple enemies so if that's what you where aiming for Ash, good job. Three stun skills, a heal, three multi attacks, it's a great class as it is, It doesn't deal crazy damage but it makes up for it with a variety of different effects and dealing with multiple enemies at once, it's a little too strong in my opinion but if you think it's okay then so be it.

< Message edited by Neliux -- 9/1/2014 18:37:51 >

AQW

Post #: 71

9/3/2014 4:34:16

Kingman93
Member

@Ash
Sorry if this has been stated already and I missed it, but shouldn't your formula for mana grenades be (current man/max mana) +100? Because 1500/2000=75%+100=175%+(100/5)=195%
Or am I just missing something?

Just trying to figure out min and max damage for it.

< Message edited by Kingman93 -- 9/3/2014 4:36:07 >

DF	Post #: 72

9/3/2014 7:49:10

RamDF
Helpful!

I find the revamp to be good in the sense that it gives the class a very unique set of skills that is fun to play around with. The various effects are quite creative as well. Definitely an improvement and a great one at that. At the same time, I do have one or two things that, perhaps, could be adjusted. While it wouldn't be too much of an issue otherwise anyways, it would be good to increase the damage of certain skills at least slightly - the skill that immediately comes to mind is one at the right-most end, which feels slightly underwhelming - this could be the attack's damage itself but need not be. It could have an effect which enhances the enemy's current weaknesses, or the damage of certain skills, set up a combo etc. Something like that which binds the whole class together is the only thing that is missing at the moment - as in, there are a lot of cool individual skills but soemtimes, they don't seem to come together and synchronise in terms of how they work (or maybe I'm just not so used to the class :P). As to Mana Grenade, it feels fine as it is, though I definitely wouldn't mind an increment in damage either.

On a side note, this class feels a bit like how I envisioned a class like Chaosweaver or enTropy would be like - a lot of effects here and there, a bit of chance (Table of Elements is epic) and a very unique skillset. Come to think of it, this unique style of play fits Technomancer very well too, with all its innovation and hi-tech moves. I hope GPS can be upgraded in a somewhat similar fashion or, for that matter, many other classes could be upgraded in an individualistic manner to have specific skillsets that make them unique like the post-revamp Technomancer.

DF	Post #: 73

9/3/2014 14:49:10

Faerdin
Rune Knight

I just had the opportunity to test out Technomancer last night and have to say I am very pleased with the revamp. Its single target damage is not spectacular (Though I couldn't help noting that Mana Grenades is definitely strong enough to be able to one-shot war monsters), but it more than makes up for that with defensive capability, crowd control, and several options for hitting multiple targets at once. It just feels very different from every other Class in DragonFable. Since it is so good at being able to keep itself alive while dealing damage (MRP + Overclock = Insanity), I actually feel like one of very few Classes in DragonFable that could be treated as a "hybrid," capable of being offensive or defensive depending on the situation at hand. :)

_____________________________

AQW

Epic

Post #: 74

9/5/2014 8:01:03

TotalHavok114
Member

I am loving the Technomancer armour so far and wouldn't change a thing about it.

Keep up the awesome work!

AQW

Post #: 75

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