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RE: Static Grenade

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11/18/2013 17:03:31   
Altador987
Member

it'd be really interesting if one of you could prove in words how the skill is op without stating "if you can't see it then you're the one over using it" i've already seen suggestions i suppose but still nno reason why other than stating what it does which isn't helping the case
AQW Epic  Post #: 76
11/18/2013 17:58:50   
I Underlord I
Member

Precisely, Altador987. I even created a small list on the first page regarding Static Grenade. Besides, Static Charge for instance is could be considered overpowered if Static Grenade is, and we don't see much complaints about that.

The only players for whom it is overpowered are those who abuse technology and those have a large amount of Credits or Varium to change their class, equipment, and build as needed to what they consider the "easiest" class.

I personally would agree with if the energy drain was decreased to 75% of what it is and the energy regain was increased to 75% of energy taken as well as the scaling changed to dexterity or support, but it seems that buffs and nerfs to skills are always overshot. :/

_____________________________

"Memories and thoughts age, just as people do. But certain thoughts can never age, and certain memories can never fade."
~ Haruki Murakami, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle
AQ  Post #: 77
11/18/2013 18:01:04   
Altador987
Member

lol i'm not even trying to argue the point anymore cause a good bunch will complain till the cows come home but seeing as no one is interested in even trying to see my point of view i'll try to see theirs instead however i need some form of evidence first and while i noticed a slight glitch that i myself admitted to, i havent seen anyone else actually state any evidence...

Edit: i mean i saw Kaiert1's comment about the leaderboard and i've checked twice once about a half hour after his statement and just now and unless he's talking about all time leader board which is irrelevant as those people have been up there since i've been playing this game and switch their classes all the time for kicks then he's just flat out lying as there were 2 bounties in 1v1 earlier and there is currently as of this moment one bounty ranked 5th in 1v1 and there is none in 2v2 it's only tech mages, a merc, and tact mercs, which is just about right as i've had my fair share of bounties and none of them abuse the emp or even use it as bounties don't bother using it against each other lol, the only outrageous tech builds i've seen have belonged to both mages, and then the usual tech merc and support tact merc so i really can't figure out for the life of me what there is to actually complain about at all

Post edit. Please don't double post. Use the edit button next time. ~Mecha

< Message edited by Mecha Mario -- 11/18/2013 18:11:54 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 78
11/18/2013 19:31:08   
veneeria
Member

Static grenade.
Well, if you must know, it is pretty much an skill that is nearly as equal to the mercs static smash.

Loses its point, when there is nothing to steal and wastes a valuable turn.
As an bounty hunter, i advise you to waste all your energy, either in one turn or save your drain after the bounty hunter as threw the grenade.

That is how you deal with them.
You also have cores in which drain energy for free or for a small fee, they are great to force some bounty hunters to use their grenade earlier. ;)

See? Is it really that terrible?

_____________________________
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 79
11/18/2013 19:46:00   
Altador987
Member

@veneeria for people who don't wish to do any thinking yes xD
AQW Epic  Post #: 80
11/18/2013 19:47:19   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

As an bounty hunter, i advise you to waste all your energy, either in one turn or save your drain after the bounty hunter as threw the grenade.


Can't really do much if you're a class without an effective EP regain.

quote:

You also have cores in which drain energy for free or for a small fee


Don't forget, they have access to cores as well.

Anyway, just because there are counters doesn't change the fact that this skill is a little too powerful. As if EMP wasn't powerful enough, this move is a super-buffed version of it o.e
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 81
11/18/2013 19:55:18   
Altador987
Member

you still haven't described how it's too powerful... and i've fought a bunch of good players with decent strength and no ep who beat me as a bounty
AQW Epic  Post #: 82
11/18/2013 20:04:43   
Dual Thrusters
Member

It drains just as much EP as EMP Grenade. Only it's FREE. While you're still scraping with what little EP you have, the Bounty already has junk like Smoke and MoB stacked on you.

And I know you can counter it with strength, but that still doesn't change the fact that the skill is too powerful.

And I'm not asking for a drastic nerf, I just think it needs to be tone down a bit like with battery backup.
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 83
11/18/2013 20:12:37   
Altador987
Member

battery backup was overpowered because before they nerfed it any mage and or tact merc could gane up to 45 mp free of charge with no requirement at all, one could gain back almost a full mp bar and THEN mages had assimilate and tact mercs had atom smash and whether they choose to use those skills is literally choice, but to put it flatly mages still have two skills that regain mp not even talking about cores, a bounty can only gain mp as long as the opponent has it and if the opponent pays attention to the cooldown time the emp is a minor nuisance at best, you still haven't given actual reasons as to why the emp is overpowered you just tried to smooth it out with "i'm not asking for a drastic nerf", not to mention as much complaining as there has been about all these tech bounties (which existed before the update as emp, smoke, and bots were affected by this anyway) i've seen very little difference from before from any bounty other than more skills used on emp because you could take 40 at lvl 4 before the update...
AQW Epic  Post #: 84
11/18/2013 20:29:39   
Dual Thrusters
Member

You can just keep spamming a high level Static Grenade to recover your energy while Destroying an insanely large portion of your opponent's. It can be countered with something like piston punch or generator, but they have them too and are only a one time use.

quote:

battery backup was overpowered because before they nerfed it any mage and or tact merc could gane up to 45 mp free of charge with no requirement at all, one could gain back almost a full mp bar and THEN mages had assimilate and tact mercs had atom smash and whether they choose to use those skills is literally choice


The problem is the exact opposite with Static grenade. Battery had a regain problem, and now Static Grenade has a draining problem. The fact that they gain EP is just a little side effect. The thing that worries me is that it is a FREE EMP.


You know what, why don't we just make EMP Grenade and Atom Smasher cost no energy while we're at it -.-

< Message edited by Dual Thrusters -- 11/18/2013 20:30:56 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 85
11/18/2013 20:36:36   
Altador987
Member

that doesn't make sense... the emp grenade costs mp specifically because it's not a regain as well as due to the fact that cyber hunters are supposed to be able to regain mp with static charge (however crappy that skill may be)... the same goes for atom smasher, TLCs have a free regain in a different skill and in order to steal mp they use a little bit, this doesn't even sound like you think it's overpowered it just sounds like you're crying over the fact that a class has a 2 in one while other classes dont and the only reason no one is complaining about blood mages is because no one sees how useful that skill actually is... you can't continue to spam emp as bounties can't even last that long at most you might use it thrice in a match and that's usually only in the case of a mage or tact merc trying to regain mp (from battery backup, assimilation, generator, etc)
AQW Epic  Post #: 86
11/18/2013 20:49:36   
veneeria
Member

quote:

Can't really do much if you're a class without an effective EP regain.

Nearly every class has got one, blood mages need a buff for their skill, i could agree with that.
Even if it is not the case, there are cores in which also have EP regain, i used to use them when bounty hunter didn't had an energy regain skill AGAINST tech mages before battery nerf.

quote:

Don't forget, they have access to cores as well.

I am well aware of it, but it doesn't have to do with how many or how good your gear/cores are, but how you use them. That is strategy, plus, not everyone has the exact same cores.

quote:

Anyway, just because there are counters doesn't change the fact that this skill is a little too powerful. As if EMP wasn't powerful enough, this move is a super-buffed version of it o.e

Actuality, it is. If there are counters, it is not a reason to nerf something to the ground, that is not balance.

EMP itself, is not the problem. But the fact that energy regeneration skills overall are. SPECIALLY, those which also steal energy from you/ or damage you while doing it.
As it stands, there is no reason to NOT have any of those skills, they cost nothing (since it serves to refill).

And that is what you should be concerned with, skills with no costs. Unless there is an actual cost for them, they will continue to be "powerful".


An extra advise, removing skill synergies doesn't really solve much, the pay is not worth for the price.
AQ AQW Epic  Post #: 87
11/18/2013 20:55:49   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

because it's not a regain as well as due to the fact that cyber hunters are supposed to be able to regain mp with static charge (however crappy that skill may be)... the same goes for atom smasher, TLCs have a free regain in a different skill and in order to steal mp they use a little bit


They have to pay the cost of their drainer, even though they have a regain. Bounties don't. Ultimately, they save energy AND spare an extra turn.

quote:

If there are counters, it is not a reason to nerf something to the ground


OK, I never said anything about "nerfing to the ground". All I'm asking for is to put a leash either on it or the synergy.

< Message edited by Dual Thrusters -- 11/18/2013 21:02:07 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 88
11/18/2013 21:00:37   
Altador987
Member

of course not it's a two in one that's the point... i could see if they split it and replaced one skill with a regain skill and then reverted the emp but it specifically doesn't cost mp just like assimilation as it's a 2in1 and it makes no sense to use mp to get it back that's redundant
AQW Epic  Post #: 89
11/18/2013 21:03:18   
Dual Thrusters
Member

quote:

makes no sense to use mp to get it back that's redundant


Exactly with Static Charge and EMP Grenade.

@veneeria

The fact that some players had to throw their builds to counter this is wrong. More build diversity should be promoted. It is the fact that only SPECIFIC styles of playing can counter this.


< Message edited by Dual Thrusters -- 11/18/2013 21:10:08 >
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 90
11/18/2013 21:03:38   
I Underlord I
Member

quote:

Dual Thrusters wrote:
It drains just as much EP as EMP Grenade. Only it's FREE. While you're still scraping with what little EP you have, the Bounty already has junk like Smoke and MoB stacked on you.

Even before the buff EMP received in the latest update, this would be blatantly incorrect. A maximum level static grenade with great technology abuse barely drains more than a level 4 EMP with moderately high technology did, and you're comparing it to the current EMP?
Don't forget that even a maximum EMP doesn't have a significant EP cost as compared to other powerful and vital skills.

In reference to your other point, you're talking about someone who has little concept of strategy and/or saved their energy for something, as well as a tactical BH who is proficient in both aforementioned skills and stacks them.
Each is uncommon, and combining the two to prove a point that isn't even true in the first place will do little good to promote senselessly nerfing a skill rather than balancing it.

As I suggested before, the technology scaling should be replaced by dexterity or support scaling, and the energy drain should be decreased while the energy regain should be increased.
That is balance; giving a four-turn cooldown, for instance, would simply be unfair, especially as the skill relies entirely on investing points in it and on opponent's/opponents' energy.
AQ  Post #: 91
11/18/2013 21:09:50   
Altador987
Member

hmmm maybe dexterity would be a good idea... seeing as bh multi and stun aren't the best to begin with then people wouldnt see too much reason to abuse a stat... support would be a horrible idea as a support abusive bounty would most likely go first, crit, and unlike mercs actually be able to defend themselves due to both shields being support influenced, but dex could be a probable solution, idk if energy drain decrease would even be necessary at that point as both a the stun grenade and multi take up a bit of mp and a bounty (even though many have tried) can no longer last on only dex and actually be able to function with synergy
AQW Epic  Post #: 92
11/18/2013 21:11:28   
Dual Thrusters
Member

Dex would be nice. It might also be able to promote Stun Grenade+Multishot builds
MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 93
11/18/2013 21:21:29   
GearzHeadz
Member

I abuse dex with a multi-shot/grenade combo. I don't support it being changed to dex though. It needs to stay on tech. If it doesn't, there will be only one other skill that uses tech.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 94
11/18/2013 21:28:30   
Altador987
Member

i mean i think i'd prefer it stay on tech but i think dex would also be another solution that could work and still be balanced
AQW Epic  Post #: 95
11/18/2013 22:02:14   
AQWorldsFarmer
Member

quote:

it'd be really interesting if one of you could prove in words how the skill is op without stating "if you can't see it then you're the one over using it" i've already seen suggestions i suppose but still nno reason why other than stating what it does which isn't helping the case


ok here we go.

First off, its a free 40+ drain (for most bounties) as for this would at one time cost you some of your own energy (about 15)

Second off, it gives energy for basicly getting rid of all of your opponents energy.


As I said, the drain should be lowered because its free, and isn't meant to be a draining skill.

Its meant to be a gaining skill, so why not lower the amount taken and raise the amount given?


To add to this, i am a Bounty Hunter my self, so this is NOT biased. As a Bounty I agree the skill should be changed.

< Message edited by AQWorldsFarmer -- 11/18/2013 22:04:05 >
Post #: 96
11/18/2013 22:16:17   
Altador987
Member

stating your class does nothing for your argument as i have four and could argue both for and against the grenade, you simply just stated what it the skill does and seeing as i have a bounty hunter i'm fully well aware of that, if you're going to propose an argument try to be specific and not use vague terms like "basically" as that means it does not exactly do that you simply have interpreted it as doing such. stating what you've said is also redundant because if you read the quote you chose to copy from me you'd notice i've already acknowledged that i'd seen the suggestions and i've already argued the point that the static grenade is meant to do both at the same time because if it was only to regain then bh's would be without an energy drain, also i'm not sure what kind of stats your using because my bh has almost 100 in tech and can barely reach 40 at max...
AQW Epic  Post #: 97
11/18/2013 22:20:52   
AQWorldsFarmer
Member

Ok, well you keep saying I need to have a valid argument. Meanwhile I don't recall you telling me why we should keep it the way it is.

Please tell me, why do you think it is fine the way it is?

And to add to this your use of the term "Almost 100 tech" has the same concept of me using the term 'basicly"


< Message edited by AQWorldsFarmer -- 11/18/2013 22:22:02 >
Post #: 98
11/18/2013 22:34:13   
GearzHeadz
Member

@AQWorldsFarmer
Do you think static smash is OP as well?
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 99
11/18/2013 22:36:04   
AQWorldsFarmer
Member

no, as for it is on a much lower scale.
Post #: 100
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