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look at what you've done

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12/21/2013 18:23:55   
x ts
Member

so the last time i played was when static grenade was first introduced and in almost every 2v2 match there were bhs. Here in the forums demands for nerf were skyrocketing. so left and decided to wait it out. i realised that the new skill was not op but rather it did not function as its skill description said it would as it did not take 50% scale to the opponents current energy. but that was fixed as i read the previous design notes. but then i guess that wasn't enough cause now, not only does grenade not improve with tech anymore ( now sup) but it went from 50% regain to 30%? can u guys guess how often i see bhs now? ( i'll let you guys answer that) and now ppl are moving onto smoke? they already scaled it down. to some players: "if you want to counter then stop using so much offensive and starting going defensive like the rest of the player base.

i'll say what i have said before concerning complaints about bh and other syngerys

to all the reason for smoke and emp (now static) grenade improving with tech brings us all the way back to when there were only 3 classes TM, BH, and Mercs.

BHs were designed to be the poison of tech mages with their smoke. the tech part of the skill was to also increase resistance so bh's could withstand TM debuff and spells. so a two birds with one stone senario

Likewise, TM skill tree was build to have a counter with BHs smoke by needing dex to imrpove which would increase def. same as a bh except malf needed sup.

Mercs had the passive +10 def Hybrid armor which was a precaution against smoke but was vulnerable to TM malf and spells

BH>or=TM
Mercs>BH
TM>Mercs
(something like this)

the classes were all meant to counteract each other so no "one" class could be ruling. obviously with the introduction of new classes this is no longer relevant.

so how is sup beneficial to a bh in anyway? and then on top of that a 20% decrease on regain? only one of these should have been implemented, not both

i agree that change is needed but that doesn't mean we should stab the "next best" class after each skills update/balance. lol i remember when everyone jumped ship to BHs and Tact mercs when delta first started, its the same thing that's happening now. all i can see in most of your demands for balance is this , "the usually easy to kill class is beating me, therefore they're op" or "i've been losing so many times because ( insert class) here keeps on ruining my victory with ( put skill name here)" instead of debuffing and rescaling we should look at what needs to be buffed cause constantly nerfing is only going to always put someone at disadvantage.

and to encourage more creative building and countering builds, i honestly think the best step towards less copying and complainng is to just make retrain free or cost less

i think that static grenade should be revised to either improve with sup and regain 50% or improves with tech (rescaled down) and regains 30%. just not the current version

your thoughts plz.


< Message edited by x ts -- 12/21/2013 19:07:42 >
Post #: 1
12/21/2013 18:53:58   
bestia immortalis
Member

Yes, I have also realised that about 90% of the players at the levels 30 and above tend to be bounty hunters.

That about the three old classes being balanced with each other is true. The new classes were introduced and nothing could be balanced for a long time because of overlapping skills. With the update a few weeks ago this problem was partially solved (they made many unique skills for each class).

They wanted to nerf the static grenade so they did that in two ways (support improving and less regain). Personally, I think the support increase is okay because bounties had a really nice synergy with high defences, focus, robot damage, high smoke and high static grenade only with the skills tech and dex (more or less). Making static grenade improve with support fixed that issue a little bit, but still many people are using the same build. However, the 30% regain change can be an indirect "buff" to the skill / nerf to the opponent. If the hunter takes away energy and only gets 30% of that back, that could not be enough for him to use the skill he wants. So he uses the next opportunity (ex. if a tech mage uses battery backup) to just take away his opponent's energy again. This can completely ruin the other player's strategy and that because the bounty hunter just wanted more energy (wasn't aiming for the draining effect).
A much better nerf to the skill could have been just leaving the 50% regain but reducing the drain.

Free retrain may seem like a good idea, but that could potentially INCREASE the amount of build copying. It would not even cost any credits to just retrain to the next overpowered build out there. On the other hand, it may encourage players to experiment more with builds. I guess we can't know what would happen.

AQW Epic  Post #: 2
12/21/2013 18:56:21   
CN2025
Member

im fine with it and im a bh working great now :)
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 3
12/21/2013 19:04:04   
x ts
Member

quote:

Yes, I have also realised that about 90% of the players at the levels 30 and above tend to be bounty hunters.


this is not as true after the big nerf.

quote:

They wanted to nerf the static grenade so they did that in two ways (support improving and less regain). Personally, I think the support increase is okay because bounties had a really nice synergy with high defences, focus, robot damage, high smoke and high static grenade only with the skills tech and dex (more or less). Making static grenade improve with support fixed that issue a little bit, but still many people are using the same build. However, the 30% regain change can be an indirect "buff" to the skill / nerf to the opponent. If the hunter takes away energy and only gets 30% of that back, that could not be enough for him to use the skill he wants. So he uses the next opportunity (ex. if a tech mage uses battery backup) to just take away his opponent's energy again. This can completely ruin the other player's strategy and that because the bounty hunter just wanted more energy (wasn't aiming for the draining effect).
A much better nerf to the skill could have been just leaving the 50% regain but reducing the drain.
having both is just too much. the concept of foiling strategies was the main purpose the skill before it even became static. regain was to level the playing field as bh did not have any type of energy regain to maybe attempt to "turn the tables" or even just make it less one sided.

Post #: 4
12/21/2013 20:46:59   
toopygoo
Member

AS a merc, you dont realize the power of BH and their drain advantage over us. their drain skills is stronger tahn mercs, and even though the percentage regained is lower, you can still regain as much as we do WHILE DRAINING MORe. oh and also, yours is a tier 2 skill, while ours is tier 4, and our is blockable, while yours cannot even be deflected.

If anything, even your grenade should STILL be toned down a little.
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
12/21/2013 21:30:47   
CN2025
Member

how much toning does it need ? its balanced now why do you do this because you dont like it its suppose to cripple you ..
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 6
12/22/2013 0:21:54   
DarkDevil
Member

i haven't played since the update , but if its as you say 30% and supo , i think they have done an overnerf.

currently bountys have no effective way of regaining energy , which places them at the bottom at using cores and skills , this also destroyed variety.

i think just moving it to supp was enough nerf.
as others might disagree this is just my opinion.
AQ Epic  Post #: 7
12/22/2013 0:24:45   
ValkyrieKnight
Member

@ DarkDevil

While they may not have the best way to regain energy, they don't need to, static grenade guarantees that their opponents can never regain energy themselves, unblockable and takes enough that even counters battery charge. As it stands tech mage is the only class that can at least regain their energy. Because of this, they have the advantage over many classes.

< Message edited by ValkyrieKnight -- 12/22/2013 0:33:15 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 8
12/22/2013 0:26:52   
GearzHeadz
Member

Yup. Now bounties have 3 skills on support and one on tech. Poof synergy. Poof any good energy regain. Drain 240 ep and you can regain 70. 70 energy isn't enough for a single move. It should still be on tech. The 30% drain was a good enough deal for its balance.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 9
12/22/2013 0:35:53   
DarkDevil
Member

actually 5 skills on supp since both masacre and shadow arts require supp.

perfect support snyrgy.
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
12/22/2013 0:38:05   
GearzHeadz
Member

They require support but aren't improved with it.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 11
12/22/2013 4:24:41   
bestia immortalis
Member

Bounties don't use static grenade that much anymore, that's probably because of the sleight overnerf. However, they have found another very strong build (high HP, high STR, high defences and low support), which is just as effective as the "old" focus build. Bounties still have absolutely no problems in winning fights.
AQW Epic  Post #: 12
12/22/2013 5:49:46   
DarkDevil
Member

quote:

Bounties still have absolutely no problems in winning fights.

with 1 build.

other builds were all rendered useless as they got no way to effectively regain energy.

the point here is not that the class is weak but that the skill had overnerf that it is no longer usefull.

who would dump 100 supp just for 12 energy back.

they should reduce the supp boost and make it scale with lvl and increase regain to stand the same as assimilation , where currently even assim is way stronger , althought mages already have battery.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 12/22/2013 5:52:32 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 13
12/22/2013 5:57:28   
Scyze
Member

toopygoo and I are on the same page. Right now it scaling with Support is a good thing because the Skill doesn't work anymore with Technology. Technology builds were common in the world of EpicDuel.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 14
12/22/2013 16:44:28   
  Exploding Penguin
Moderator


 To comment on your recollection of the classes back when there were only 3, BH and TM were pretty much opposites that countered each other. Merc was an oddball that had great weaknesses but also great advantages to both classes. Back then Merc was super susceptible to debuffs, but if the BH couldn't debuff the Merc's tankiness rendered blood lust very ineffective, and Merc's high damage output over a few short turns could enable them to make short work of TMs IF the TMs didn't kill them first.

And increasing static grenade with support could just not work, even if synergy seems strong with reflex boost and energy shield. BM looked like it had good synergy with support because of intimidate, deadly aim's support requirement (this was back before passives got removed), and its defensive buffs. However, support BM faced a huge problem of having ridiculously low unpredictable damage output. Even if you could hit hard it was easily predictable and guarded against.

I guess one way to solve the static grenade supposedly being OP problem is to increase smokescreen and field medic's base energy cost, but reduce the energy cost increase per skill point or the HP recovered or something. This would make it much harder to get a free level 4 smoke from static grenade (which typically gives just enough for one, too), or a heal. What lots of people fail to see is that static grenade can be troublesome in the fact that the energy return is quite small compared to other skills, so hopefully a change like this will fix it.
Epic  Post #: 15
12/22/2013 18:49:41   
GearzHeadz
Member

@Exploding Penguin
A level 10 static grenade with 69 support that drains 400 will only return 120. Not enough for a single skill. Maybe a few cores. I don't know why you want to increase costs of other skills. The grenade is only useful for draining enemies now, energy regain is hardly there anymore.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 16
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