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Hybrid/Mineral/Plasma Buffs

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1/16/2014 19:00:19   
Xendran
Member

Plasma Armor
Increase Resistance for 4 turns. This skill is unaffected by stat changes.
A percentage of direct damage taken is reflected as EP damage.

Level 1: 30% Resistance | 15% of Damage
Level 2: 39% Resistance | 17% of Damage
Level 3: 48% Resistance | 19% of Damage
Level 4: 56% Resistance | 21% of Damage
Level 5: 64% Resistance | 23% of Damage
Level 6: 72% Resistance | 25% of Damage
Level 7: 79% Resistance | 27% of Damage
Level 8: 86% Resistance | 29% of Damage
Level 9: 93% Resistance | 31% of Damage
Level 10: 100% Resistance | 33% of Damage


Mineral Armor
Increase Defence for 4 turns. This skill is unaffected by stat changes.
A percentage of direct damage taken is reflected as damage.

Level 1: 30% Defence | 15% of Damage
Level 2: 39% Defence | 17% of Damage
Level 3: 48% Defence | 19% of Damage
Level 4: 56% Defence | 21% of Damage
Level 5: 64% Defence | 23% of Damage
Level 6: 72% Decence | 25% of Damage
Level 7: 79% Defence | 27% of Damage
Level 8: 86% Defence | 29% of Damage
Level 9: 93% Defence | 31% of Damage
Level 10: 100% Defence | 33% of Damage



Hybrid Armor
Increases Defense & Resistance for 4 turns. This skill is unaffected by stat changes.
Incoming damage grants the opponent less rage;
30% of Cost must be repaid by the caster on the affected dealing direct* damage
50% of Energy Spent during Hybrid Armor is returned on effect end

Cost: 110 +20 per level

Level 1: 22% Defense, Resist | 15% Less Rage
Level 2: 28% Defense, Resist | 17% Less Rage
Level 3: 34% Defense, Resist | 19% Less Rage
Level 4: 40% Defense, Resist | 21% Less Rage
Level 5: 46% Defense, Resist | 23% Less Rage
Level 6: 52% Defense, Resist | 25% Less Rage
Level 7: 58% Defense, Resist | 27% Less Rage
Level 8: 64% Defense, Resist | 29% Less Rage
Level 9: 70% Defense, Resist | 31% Less Rage
Level 10: 76% Defense, Resist | 33% Less Rage


< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/28/2014 9:20:48 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 1
1/16/2014 19:07:51   
Remorse
Member

Supported,
I like the fact the sheilds do other effects apart from shielding.
Epic  Post #: 2
1/16/2014 19:11:22   
Mother1
Member

Not supported.

These shields are already annoying enough as it is since with most builds they completely outshine and last longer than debuffs. Last thing these shields need are yet another buff since they were overbuffed originally.
Epic  Post #: 3
1/16/2014 19:13:18   
Xendran
Member

@Mother1

You gave no reason as to what situations they are annoying in, and how you feel they compare to the current dominant classes. In most situations, these buffs are next to useless, especially because they have an energy cost.
If they were overbuffed, i feel like i would see more players using these skills. I have seen armor skills used a grand total of 3 times combined in the last week, and these players fall prey too easily to hunters and mages upon messaging them to test these skills.
I find that most players who view these skills to be devastating are ones who either have a lack of off-element damage (physical on a tech mage caster, for example), and have not compensated for that lack of off-element damage with non-offensive options. These builds will be crippled by shields due to their extremely one-dimensional nature. Every build should have either consistent off-element damage, consistent alternative options for shield time (including striking for rage), or both.

More importantly, not knowing what situations they are annoying in also brings in the idea of "Annoying = bad". In reality, anything anybody does to counter anything you do will be considered annoying to you, so I'm not sure that you can really create a valid viewpoint with a term like that.
If you'd be willing to elaborate, I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say, and potentially modifying the presented skills a bit more.

The thing i've noticed the most is that Tech Mage holds both the highest energy efficiency as well as the second highest EP suppression potential ,next to BH which has less EP efficiency (third, behind Mage and TLM) but more EP suppresion potential. The other classes use energy very inefficiently, and this is one of the reasons i chose the things that i did. Merc has a way to store up emergency energy while stalling for a heal with this version of hybrid armor, and cyber hunter's poor energy efficiency compared to mage or tlm is made up for by giving them a Bounty Hunter level of EP suppression with the new plasma. I chose damage reflection for the tactical merc as a semi-passive way to compete with the Tech Mage's Bludgeon as double strike ,despite having less cool down, does not synergize as well with the TLM skill tree compared to bludgeon in the mage tree.

Not only that, but these skills will especially allow classes with Armor skills to be more competetive in juggernaut, either forcing opponents to act more defensively to stall for time, or by punishing players for attacking during these effects.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/16/2014 19:43:13 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 4
1/16/2014 19:14:22   
Altador987
Member

i really don't think the shields need that kind of a buff i think they could be a lot less ep expensive but that's a bit much
AQW Epic  Post #: 5
1/16/2014 19:38:45   
Stabilis
Member

Just a tip, both Mineral and Plasma armours here give Resistance.
AQ Epic  Post #: 6
1/16/2014 19:41:04   
Xendran
Member

Thanks, fixed that.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 7
1/16/2014 19:53:53   
Mother1
Member

@ Xendran

Sorry I will do that.

While in the hands of player with low defenses these buffs are a joke, in the hands of tanks they are overly strong. As it stands now these buffs already stand above the rest since unlike the others they have immunity to the buff breaker items. Meaning in mineral armor's and plasma armors case you will have to go around it if you can, and in hybrid armor's case well you can't go around it since it protect both defenses since it is two shields in one.

Ever see a combined defense and/or resist with these buffs of 500-600? I have and even with my debuff of 31 Tech (which takes about 110-150 depending on my opponent) That still leave me going against 390-450 and many times I am hitting the bare min 30 even with my best attacks. Not fun to deal with especially since you can't break the buffs or in many cases you are forced to go throught them.

Not only that but when you range if you are going against this shield whatever you are going up against (let's say it is 350 from a max mineral armor) none of that get ignored like with the old passive armors. Like ever other defensive buff it get's adding in with the remaining about of defense ignored but it subtracts your from the damage which in many cases leave me hitting barely anything with my rage depending on the situation.

I remember remorse telling me just go around them or not use my debuff right away since that what used to be done in the old days, However if a tank triggers these buffs unless you have away around it, or have really high offensive power have fun scoring 30 damage and doing low damage when you rage.

As I mentioned before Debuffs (which was one of the counters to buffs before the azreal items came along) were nerfed as well, so even if you are really abusing the stat your debuff works with or you have the necrosis robot (A varium robot which free to play won't get for another year) you don't have a really effective counter to these buffs either.

I have some other thoughts to your buffs, but I have to ask are the ones that reflex damage back at your opponents from just melee's of that kind or from all kinds of damage from that buff?
Epic  Post #: 8
1/16/2014 19:57:36   
Xendran
Member

Reflect will reflect all non DoT/Reflect damage.
You still are falling within the type of player i explained in before, if you cannot get around a single shield in the current game your build is too one dimensional.

There are many defensive options that can be used during a shielding period, as well as going for flat energy drains and off-element damage.
It sounds to me like you want to just footbal charge your way through the shield, and nothing you have said seems to provide evidence towards the contrary.
When somebody else uses an armor skill, it is meant to be a game-changer, forcing every player on the field to either roll defensive along with the tank during their shield, or to bypass it.
Too many players ignore the idea that they could throw up a technician when they throw up a plasma armor, for example. They consider it a wasted turn and just do the typical "plow right through" method to attempt to circumvent the shield, rather than counter-tanking.

This is also a good way to delay your rage, especially now that we have three armor cores that allow you to save your rage (Generator, Piston Punch, Chairman). If you are finding that raging through an opponents armor skill is crippling you, then you need to counteract that and invest in skills and cores that do not consume rage, but still provide some sort of benefit to you. Turn skipping is also a viable option against tanks, as usually they will not have enough strength to do severe damage to you during their shield if you have removed your energy.

This, and every build has it's bane. Perhaps you have a build that is specifically crippled by shields, but in exchange is more powerful against other methods of play. Nothing you have said so far has actually convinced me that it's anything other than your build that struggles with shields, rather than them as a whole breaking the synergy or balance of game mechanics, especially when most other players i find in game steamroll shield users, and most shield users i find in game stop using them after they don't work out all that well compared to other alternatives.

Another thing you haven't really taken into consideration is that hybrid now has the potential to lock mercenaries in place, forcing them to skip turns. If they do not have the proper type of active cores, or energy pool to support this powerful skill, it will keep them alive but cripple their ability to do damage. This makes it fully serve the purpose i wanted for it, which is to allow mercenaries to stall battles like true tanks in order to deal with things like cooldowns. That's also part of the reason energy is returned upon Hybrid Armor ending. It gives mercenaries the much-needed ability to essentially store up energy that cannot be drained, stall for cooldowns, and unleash a powerful attack.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/16/2014 20:06:30 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 9
1/17/2014 3:19:58   
DarkDevil
Member

um , we are in a middle of discussing smth when we hadn't even started it.

so let's start , what is wrong with those classes ? what is wrong with those skills ? why should those skills be buffed ? what will happen when they are buffed ? what are the side effects of this buff ? what is a sutible amount for the buff ?

answering those questions will help us get to the point faster , as curently we are standing in the midfle of the falling bridge in this thread.

orelse my reply is just the ordinary "no" as you have given a buff without reasons to smth that's already strong.
those shields last for 4 turns and can't be removed by anything , also have a strong effect as mother1 pointed , so they doesn't need a buff as the current way to deal with them is to go the other way around where hybrid armor must be penetrated to win.

< Message edited by DarkDevil -- 1/17/2014 3:23:28 >
AQ Epic  Post #: 10
1/17/2014 4:13:58   
Xendran
Member

DarkDevil, if you are not going to read my posts which contain the answeres to all of your questions, you should refrain from posting in the thread.
It is a common courtesy to at least be correct when claiming that somebody has not provided a desired set of information.


quote:

hybrid armor must be penetrated to win.


This is just lack of experience talking. There are a multitude of actions you can be taking that are not attacking.
However, since it seems the majority of players will not actually want to read all of the text in this thread, or consider the effects of these buffs themselves, i will simply answer these questions in a concise format.
quote:


what is wrong with those classes ?


Tactical Mercenary has high energy efficiency, however still does not have the power capabilities of Tech Mage and Bounty Hunter when it comes to synergizing the skills together. Reflecting 33% damage is not a giant boost, and can be avoided by not dealing heavy damage. Adding damage reflection adds an interesting decision between high base resist/defence and low damage reflect, vs lesser defensive effect but with more damage taken meaning more damage reflected. It also can be used as a last ditch effort if your opponent is on extremely low health and you can survive a single strike. It's balanced out by being easy to avoid.

Cyber Hunter has very poor damage output when compared to its energy suppression and efficiency levels, so increasing it's energy suppression in a way that suits the class, while simultaneously buffing a nearly useless skill is a good way of fixing both the class and the skill simultaneously.

Mercenary has absolutely horrible energy efficiency, and as a character designed for tanking, does a very poor job of it compared to the damage output when not using a support build, and while using a support build the damage output is in exchange for even more energy efficiency AND suppression. Their suppression and efficiency are also heavily linked to the same stat, with no flat number usage and the ability to be cippled by blocks.

quote:

what is wrong with those skills ?


All three of them are not used even remotely close to as frequently as anything else, and recieved a much harsher conversion to active skills when compared to Mark of Blood and Battery Backup. These skills are also very one-dimensional and boring, providing no true differentiation from regular shields other than an immunity to stat reduction. They are used extremely sparingly, whereas we look at a skill like Battery Backup which is the core of a Tech Mage build. Armors were core to TLM/Merc/CH builds as well, and they are nowhere near as useful as MoB or BB.

quote:

why should those skills be buffed ?


Buffing these core skills provide a solid boost in power, synergy, and available options to these existing classes, helping solve a lot of the class dominance regarding TM and BH. It also provides interesting tactical options to these classes, as well as their opponents when thinking about how to deal with these armors. This is basically the same question as the previous one.

quote:

what will happen when they are buffed ?


This brings TLM, Merc and CH up to a level that is very similar to BH and TM. This leaves only one class needing to be heavily fixed, without drastically changing the skill tree, or the core function of skills.
It also provides more interesting EP-Play in battles, and Mineral Shield having reflect will encourage more players to think about alternative options when it comes to battling, which clearly not enough players do. Everybody is too focused on staying on the offensive.

quote:

what are the side effects of this buff ?


None in 1v1. They are self contained within their trees and builds, and designed in a way that synergizes well, but is not brokenly abusable. There are plenty of options available to counter, bypass, or reduce the effect of these buffed armor skills.
In 2v2, it brings the support aspect of these classes to a level more similar to Tech Mage's ability to restore both the energy and health of your partner. This is a more defensive option.
In juggernaut, it allows you to simultaneously punish both players with a single skill use. Juggernaut at level 35+ is borderline impossible at the moment, so this is an improvement as well.

quote:

what is a sutible amount for the buff ?


Listed in OP.

quote:

orelse my reply is just the ordinary "no" as you have given a buff without reasons to smth that's already strong.


This kind of response is the exact thing that the developers, staff and especially players are not looking for. They are looking for constructive posts and reasoning, rather than attempting to dismiss something because you have not put in the required amount of time to understand the reasoning behind it when the reasoning has already been presented for you previously in the discussion.

One other thing to note, is that posting with simply "Not Supported" does not matter. Whether or not the players on the forums support it is frankly going to have little to no influence on whether or not the developers consider using the idea, or a similar one.
They will only care if you can explain, logically, why or why not this would be beneficial or detrimental to the game. A prime example of this would be the multiple times that I, and likely others, requested for all the damage, energy, and health numbers to be multiplied by 10, and for the length of battles to be increased. There was by far more people against both of these things than for them on the forums, however the developers saw that it would have a positive impact on the game, and did it regardless.





< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/17/2014 4:43:07 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 11
1/17/2014 4:53:00   
DarkDevil
Member

very good explaination , but you are still forgetting they last for 4 turns , with such buff it could drop to 3 to keep the skill on the line.

also drop on the bh point , the only snyrgy is mob with smoke , other skills doesn't do any snyrgy , and the class is very weak on energy , so it can only destroy it.
AQ Epic  Post #: 12
1/17/2014 4:59:09   
coolboyelazizy
Member

@ DarkDevil

i guess u forgetting that they are unique skills and must have something special like lasting for 4 turns.

< Message edited by coolboyelazizy -- 1/17/2014 5:00:16 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 13
1/17/2014 5:03:18   
Ranloth
Banned


 Uh, even though they do last a turn longer, the EP cost higher by +20 EP at all levels - compared to Defense Matrix and Energy Shield, which both give +Def/Res, just like the Armors. Different mechanisms as well; Armors require a decent amount of Dex/Tech to be efficient, whilst Shields can do with average Support (40-50) and around Level 2-4 at most, to be quite efficient; by that, I mean around +200-240 Def/Res, which is pretty good for mere +130-170 Energy.

Comparing power of Shields and Armors is one, but let's not forget the EP cost and mechanism under which they improve. One is viable at almost any level, with low/standard Support. Other needs you to invest heavily into Dex/Tech to be efficient.
AQ Epic  Post #: 14
1/17/2014 5:08:28   
coolboyelazizy
Member

quote:

Uh, even though they do last a turn
longer, the EP cost higher by +20 EP at
all levels - compared to Defense
Matrix and Energy Shield, which both
give +Def/Res, just like the Armors.
Different mechanisms as well; Armors
require a decent amount of Dex/Tech
to be efficient, whilst Shields can do
with average Support (40-50) and
around Level 2-4 at most, to be quite
efficient; by that, I mean around
+200-240 Def/Res, which is pretty
good for mere +130-170 Energy.
Comparing power of Shields and
Armors is one, but let's not forget the
EP cost and mechanism under which
they improve. One is viable at almost
any level, with low/standard Support.
Other needs you to invest heavily into
Dex/Tech to be efficient.


+1

AQW Epic  Post #: 15
1/17/2014 5:20:40   
Ranloth
Banned


 Mind you, Xendran hasn't explained the reduction in damage - or I just can't see it. If it's before defenses are applied, I'm not gonna support. But, if it's after defenses, I will support.

The reason being, before defenses + tank build + increase in Def/Res = too much tankiness. Although, it'd be better for offensive builds. At the same time, if you apply it after defenses, tank builds can still get some use out of it - because it will reduce damage on top of your Armor - whilst offensive builds have low defenses anyway, so the Armors would end up more efficient for them.

Hybrid Armor is also quite nice. Whilst PA/MA go for reducing the incoming damage, HA goes for Rage which may not be as efficient as reducing damage, but more power (from the effect) can be put towards strengthening the Def+Res boost instead. Unique and interesting concept.
AQ Epic  Post #: 16
1/17/2014 6:00:57   
Xendran
Member

Trans, i believe you're confusing reflect with damage reduction. It takes a percentage of the damage you take, and deals it back to your opponent either as HP or EP damage.
These armor skills are more efficient at reflecting than protecting with lower def/res, more effective at defending and less at reflecting with high def/res.

I buffed up the tankiness of hybrid to surpass the others, in exchange for forcing you to repay part of its cost if you want to attack while it's active.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/17/2014 6:08:58 >
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 17
1/17/2014 6:08:48   
Ranloth
Banned


 Ah, my bad then, thought it was reduction. XD Either way, I'm all for it for the above reasons.
AQ Epic  Post #: 18
1/19/2014 8:00:43   
Xamurai
Member

Supported.
AQW Epic  Post #: 19
1/19/2014 8:36:05   
DarkDevil
Member

you should also consider they are a tier 1 skill.

so if they added those effects they must reduce the duration to 3.

a skill should not be OPed because the class is not , therefore there shouldn't be an exception.
AQ Epic  Post #: 20
1/19/2014 8:39:41   
Ranloth
Banned


 Tier doesn't really define power anymore. Hence why I believe skill prerequisites should be abolished since they serve no purpose anymore. Also, going by your logic, Plasma Armor should get buffed because it's Tier 2 - but it'd be unjust, because PA and MA are the same skills, so why the different treatment?
AQ Epic  Post #: 21
1/19/2014 8:45:22   
Silver Sky Magician
Member


 I've never seen tiering as being in any way indicative of a skill's power or utility. Stun grenade is tier 2 for BHs, but Plasma grenade is tier 4 for CHs. Reflex Boost is tier 3 for BHs, but tier 4 for BMs. Malfunction is tier 2 for CHs, but tier 3 for TMs. And so on. Tiering systems are only there so that skills like Berserker or Massacre can't be used at level 3. Beyond level 10, tiering ceases to be relevant to a large extent.
Post #: 22
1/19/2014 8:51:20   
DarkDevil
Member

tiring doesn't define power , but sometimes it throws limitations so it can be used for a lvl 1.
limitations affect the penalties and so affect the power limit of such skill.

you can't put a req or or do anything to increase their power under any cost therefore the cost will have to be of the effect instead.
so to do those buffs the effect will have to be reduced to 3 turns.
AQ Epic  Post #: 23
1/19/2014 8:55:39   
Ranloth
Banned


 Why though? It works differently to Shields (requires you to invest in Dex/Tech a lot for a decent return), has minimally higher EP cost (+20 EP), and has quite a requirement - unlike other Shields. Almost all the time, it's weaker than Defense Matrix/Energy Shield thus compensated with +1 turn duration. Furthermore, different mechanism and minimally higher EP cost, could warrant an additional effect.
AQ Epic  Post #: 24
1/19/2014 9:12:38   
Xendran
Member

Also, you shouldn't be directly comparing them to shields as these are designed as class synergies. They are meant to make up for underpoweredness, and intentionally have very high utility and stalling capability.
These skills used to be the backbone of these classes, and were nerfed into the ground.

Oh another thing people are forgetting is that you can use poison to bypass the reflect effects. This adds another utility to poison damage.

Tiers mean absolutely nothing. Ignore them.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 25
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