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RE: =OS= What would YOU like to see? IV - READ THE FIRST POST

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3/5/2014 21:40:02   
Kiazz
Member

But they didn't nerf shadow, neutral, or any of the other elements along with it. Having a limit of two, and the fact that they don't have much going for them other than greater heal. How else would you justify the use of a light character? I'm sure you've crushed your share of light legends in your time with or without the nerf. A return would just give them more of a chance. >.>
Post #: 576
3/5/2014 21:42:29   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Light still has the best healing cards lightning doesn't even have a healing card and void reflection is a waste of energy most of the time in a deck also they did nerf crush so it wouldn't count in 5 hits any more and they also took away charge from working on chain lightning. Ice characters can't heal and have a terrible DOT frostbite every character needs to have a flaw.
Post #: 577
3/6/2014 9:57:19   
Kiazz
Member

Lightning could potentially do insane damage with charge (max 2 for 800) and super charge (max 8 for 2000; even more efficient than corruption in a single turn), not to mention the possibility of gaining it all back again with energize. And electric arc; while it may take a long time, it's probably the strongest DoT in game. Void reflection is 13 for 2000 in effect; if your opponent relies on attack, like lightning and fire, rest assured it will not be in vain. (Counterpicking characters.) I don't think combo bonus ever affected crush, since its inception. Charge didn't work well with chain lightning; my tests showed that it only counted as one 200 attack, but spread out over three, so weird 58+56+?? or something, point being it equaled 200. Ice characters have freeze, ice wall, and another insane DoT to go with it; shatter. Not every character has frostbite, and I've lobbied for it's buff since christmas. Yeah, every character has a flaw, but some are exceptional and transcend norms (like arcane ranger, cosoma titan, etc.). The problem is, light's most exceptional characters are now slightly flawed due to that turn nerf, in the face of the champions of every other element. (Except for water of course, but I've also supported buffing it in the past.)
Post #: 578
3/6/2014 10:06:36   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Chain lighting plus charge and low atttack cards made a good combo. But you have to count the fact that light is one of the best at going through shields Blessed holy strike and a mighty pierce helped me farm through ice character like they won't even there. Also the game is still new one of the big thing about a game like this old characters become less effective over time. Love machine is a new character and its deck it pretty good compared to even some of the best Light characters from the pass year.
Post #: 579
3/6/2014 19:04:19   
Kiazz
Member

Or you could just use it with energize and as a finisher; I'm pretty sure chain lightning was never intended to be an attack card, given its animation and weird uneven split of the damage. It only counts as one attack card anyway, you might as well use 500s and a super charge instead of low charge +13, costing around the same energy. In fact, I think it's a bug. How many times could you use pierce though, with losing energy on healing? Even your "mighty pierce" only does 10 for 1000. And your opponent will also be giving you shatters and freezes. If you were to calculate an element's worth by that one card, you might as well say earth, due to it also having a 6 for 1000 shield. But that's not what makes earth earth. Love machine doesn't have greater heals, hence, it is not a "champion" of light. (It relies on pretty low heals, like the basic one and a 3 for 600 that requires a discard, drastically lowering your energy consumption and therefore fully using every turn.) Also, other elements can combo like it can, maybe even better, due to other cards of their element that add to your output. However, this defining card has been nerfed, lowering light's abilities t.o combat against the best of other elements.

Edit: It might sound hypocritical, defining greater heal as light's main card, but it's logical given the effectiveness of all it's other cards. (e.g. retribution is 3 500s, holy strike, the main card for offence doesn't deal as much without taking energy from healing, 5 for 700 vs 3 for 600 or 5 for 1000).


< Message edited by Kiazz -- 3/6/2014 19:09:05 >
Post #: 580
3/6/2014 22:54:26   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Yeah I know it wasn't meant to happen I was just saying that charge plus chain lighting was acually a good combo. Holy strike is the best normal attack card in game it even out matches thrash 4 600 damage in battle but you still can't say Light is a pretty good element when retribution can go to through counter and light will actually be a lot better once resistance is added do to only having one weakness chaos. Also greater heal was always meant to take longer to work and greater heal still being the best heal.
Post #: 581
3/7/2014 1:08:17   
Apple Core
Member

In case you guys haven't noticed, most cards cost less depending on how many turns they take
to complete. Shatter is 5 for 1000 after 4 turns. Mountain Strike is 6 for 1000 after 2 turns.
Storm is 7 for 1000 over 2 turns, Electric Arc is 4 for 1200 over 6 turns.

Following that pattern, Greater Heal only costs 5 because it's a delayed heal. Compare it to
Healing Spring which is a 4 for 800 over 2 turns. If you do the math you'll see that it's
actually better. It costs 1 more point, gives an extra 200 heal and you get the full amount
in 1 turn as opposed to 2 turns. So no complaints on Greater Heal for me.

Considering Holy Strike, it's definitely the best simple attacking card. A normal
500 dmg card costs 4. Holy Strike costs 1 more and deals an extra 200 dmg. Compare that
to another common card, Power Strike. This one costs 3 more than a 500 dmg card, and
2 more than Holy Strike, dealing 300 more dmg than the first, and 100 more than the second.
Yet again, absolutely no complaints towards light at all.

From what I'm seeing, Light seems to be quite a powerful element. In higher lvl characters,
it has pretty much the best heals and the best attacks. I'm going to list real quick what helps
balance out the other elements with light:

1. Ice- Bigger shields, typically more of them. A DAT(damage after time) for low cost, and the ability to change shields into damage. Not to mention a good stun.
2. Earth- Bigger shields, a damaging stun, Earthquake(decent cost, high dmg), a DAT, and ability to change shields into dmg or healing.
3. Fire- Generally highly offensive with plenty of attacks, a dmg boosting card, 2 dots, and 2 high dmg high cost cards.
4. Water- Plenty of heals, a high dmg card (for a 5 hit it's decently low cost), and an energy charging card.
5. Energy- Generally highly offensive with plenty of dmg boosting cards, 2 dots, a high dmg card, and generally 2 energy charging cards.
6. Shadow- Plenty of unique attacking cards as well as dmg boosting cards, a dot and a DAT, and a good counter card.
7. Neutral- Decent number of attacking cards, a mediocre dot, a low cost temporary shield, counter cards, a cc-able high cost high dmg dot, and an energy charging card.

As is, I think most elements are pretty balanced. Maybe when new cards are getting introduced, balance discussions would be welcomed.

*EDIT* @Below My bad lol, but as Gorillo said, proves my point even more.

< Message edited by Apple Core -- 3/7/2014 1:24:54 >
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 582
3/7/2014 1:12:37   
The Jop
Member

@Apple Core
Healing Spring costs 5 energy.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 583
3/7/2014 1:22:16   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Just proves his point more that Greater heal is a good card.


Any idea if rolith will be coming back to OS soon?

Vox might know since she works on DF right?
Post #: 584
3/7/2014 3:30:15   
Kiazz
Member

Yes, that's a way to balance it. The more turns it takes, the less damage there is every turn, and you charge 10 energy every turn, allowing you to completely neutralize it. Greater heal's power lies in the fact that it can be used more often, due to its ability to be used every turn, but the one turn reduction drastically lessens its ability to be spammed. Every step you take back, DoTs take forward.

Greater Heal only costs 5, true, but light doesn't have other things that can justify its nerf. In context, the most powerful DoTs of each element are allied with things that balance it out; shatter with ice wall and freeze, mountain strike with petrify, stonewall, earthquake, and crush, storm and electric arc with energize, corruption with iron hide, counter attack, and shield, etc. Your healing spring point isn't a good example due to the fact that water has an energy booster in fresh start whereas light has none. It's 5 for 800, but for a heal each turn rather than a heal AFTER two turns. If greater heal did that, it would be fine as well in my book, but light doesn't have an energy booster to justify it nor the power to spam it, due to the limit of two and the fact that it is inaccessible with CC, unlike healing spring.

Holy strike is one of the best attack cards, true, on par with bash and thrash. But good attack cards don't always mean the best offense. What are you healing for, other than to stall so that you can kill your opponent with offense (ice stalls for shatters, earth stalls for turns that they'll fully use, neutral stalls for corruptions, etc.)? Holy strike, in comparison, is just not as powerful in terms of offense to justify the drain in energy from healing. Holy strike costs 5, and with three, you already have 15 taken from your energy pool for healing. You can do one or the other, but 5 for 700 is in no way comparable to 5 for 1000; effectiveness. Therefore, you'll probably let DoTs run their full course or be murdered by the DoT due to your opponent's shield/block/counter of your "simple" attack.

In higher levels, DoTs run their full course more often due to the longer battles. The best heals and simple attacks, sure, but they don't measure up to the DoTs of other elements.

Your list just proves that other elements are more effective than light due to greater heal's nerf with context, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I still stand by what I said, that the elongation into two turns of greater heal was unnecessary and have made a whole element that much less relevant.

Post #: 585
3/7/2014 3:59:12   
clintonian
Member

@Kiazz imma say this light legends still are really good even with the nerf Queen aegea is still a brick wall just duel signeous's one lol. Iv'e waited a long time for the greater heal nerf as it was necessary 5 for 1000 health the same turn is ridiculous plus the spam uugh don't want to remember those days.
Post #: 586
3/7/2014 4:06:43   
Kiazz
Member

I had aegea long before. The problem is, aegea has neutralize and iron hide, despite the singular greater heal. Unlike other light legends, it does not need to depend on greater heal to survive; penances and shields keep it going long enough for greater heal to fully occur. This is not so with other light legends. Even with the "ridiculous" spam in those days, I don't doubt that you could still beat them. Especially with something like mana guardian and resonance now. Now, (pure) light legends are vulnerable to pretty much all of the other elements due to that increased turn. One more turn, where you could potentially kill them before it happens. And I'm sure you know how valuable turns are, given the way you play. :I
Post #: 587
3/7/2014 8:17:41   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Greater Heal wasn't actually nerfed since it was always meant to take effect later on rather then happening the same turn.
Post #: 588
3/7/2014 10:15:46   
Kiazz
Member

Then why does it say "2" instead of "1"? The previous one worked even better than a normal heal due to it occurring after DoTs finish; though should it be buffed to immediate, it would still be better than after two turns. What it was meant to be should have no effect on what it should be; like how the intended two freezes were reduced to one for the sake of balance and change, with solid reasoning behind it.
Post #: 589
3/7/2014 10:20:17   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Cause one turn means next turn if it was suppose to work the same turn it would of just said heal 1000

Heres my list of the elements and how they are suppose to be used.

Nuetral = stalling for time
Fire= all out power as you hope your deff can hold up against them
Lighting= strategy planning stuff out so you can hit the enemy big when they least expect it.
Water= Medics not the strongest but hard to stop when they get a good flow going.
Light= Mind games hard to predict what will happen next even though you try and deff against them you still have the feat of a power pierce attack making it useless
Ice= Overwhelming your enemy by blocking all of there damage and putting a lot of it out like a Tank

< Message edited by Gorillo Titan -- 3/7/2014 10:27:28 >
Post #: 590
3/7/2014 11:24:39   
Kiazz
Member

If you want to get into the technicalities, look no further than retribution. It uses the same phrasing, so according to your logic, why aren't they the same amount of turns? You get 5 every turn, so next turn should be before your opponent strikes, apparently.

What does this list have to do with greater heal's nerf?
Post #: 591
3/7/2014 11:26:53   
Axel459
The Void Calls


 I think we could use some more music I'm sure Klunk and Dilligaf could have made something new by now.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 592
3/7/2014 11:38:33   
Gorillo Titan
Member

how you know they haven't played to nerf retribution yet just been to busy.

@Axel yeah but I think we need new locations for music and warlic would need to come that stuff tuga told me he saw diligaf two days ago and was talking to him about adding new stuff and talking to nulgath about it.
Post #: 593
3/7/2014 20:54:20   
Kiazz
Member

Then you've got to ask yourself, "To what ends will this achieve?" Is there reasoning behind nerfing another card of a already weakened element? Wouldn't it just make light even less viable as an element against the other elements? I don't think that balance should be determined by intention, rather, it needs to be determined by actual field testing. It's like that time ironhide was intended to be 5 for 2000. Look at it now.
Post #: 594
3/7/2014 22:51:42   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Its not nerfing the card since it wasn't done right in the first place they are just fixing it.
Post #: 595
3/7/2014 22:59:44   
Kiazz
Member

The definition of nerfing is the reduction of benefits. This, "fixing," you speak of is a therefore a definite nerf due to the increase of turns prior to activation. Done right and how balanced it is are two different things. Like I said, you need field testing to determine whether balanced; what it was intended in the first place to be should have no bearing on what it should actually be.
Post #: 596
3/7/2014 23:28:01   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Dude just ask sage or asuka how the card is suppose to work they will have an answer for you instead of us talking about this.
Post #: 597
3/8/2014 0:43:34   
DidYouKnowThat
Member

Omg lol this thread is like overtaken by Gorillo and Kiazz.

ANYWAYS. I'd like to see mini-maps. World maps, but a tad bit smaller. Like, when you click ''Explore'' on a cave, instead of bringing you to a battle, it brings you to a mini-map. . .

NO, not a dungeon. Different. :P It'll still be like you're in a map.
Post #: 598
3/8/2014 13:45:40   
Magical Winds
Member

I think it'd be neat to have more areas in the game, maybe north east, north west, south east and south west world maps would be nice, more space for the growing amount of characters.
AQW  Post #: 599
3/8/2014 17:50:30   
Gorillo Titan
Member

Maps take a lot of work since you need someone to draw out the areas and set up all the character spawns in etc if we get something like that it won't be for a while. Does any who alpha tested know how long it took them to add the maps we have now I think it was like 6 months into game since we use to have to hunt ice stuff in a small spot in the forest?
Post #: 600
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