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RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them?

 
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2/20/2015 11:32:26   
gakorogirl
Member

It might help for non-grinders if there was a reward (like the equivalent of 5-10 extra waves completed) if you check in every day of the war and fight at least 1 wave?

(I personally would love it if there was a chance of certain waves dropping an item like a weapon in place of the DM, like a 1% chance overall and higher on Rare Waves.)
DF AQW  Post #: 51
2/20/2015 11:57:13   
The Hollow Soul
Member

@Gakorogirl, I like the idea of a reward if you check in everyday, but only completing one wave is a little too easy for people to still not help out. Maybe bump it up to 10 or 20 waves(or higher even) that need to be completed and you get a special drop that can be turned in for an item at the end of the war? The more of them you get the better an item you'll get sort of thing.


@Ash, I've been thinking about how to get the deadlines out to everyone who plays the games, not just DN readers and forum users. I was thinking in-game countdown timer on the war screen, but I doubt if that would be able to be implemented. That would also require you guys to have an end date in mind at the start of the war which I don't know if you do when it comes to most wars or if you judge by how well we do in the first weekend and then decide when the war should end.* If the timer idea can't work, maybe a little text on the war home portal screen that has end dates for the war(and any war challenges) on it once they're decided upon. or even on the Book of Lore under the war that says "War ends on X day at X time" like when a holiday book is leaving.


*I could also see this backfiring during wars like this one where it was only 1 million waves and we were no-where near the real completion time you had for us.

< Message edited by The Hollow Soul -- 2/20/2015 11:59:20 >
DF  Post #: 52
2/20/2015 12:09:52   
Ash
Member


quote:

It might help for non-grinders if there was a reward (like the equivalent of 5-10 extra waves completed) if you check in every day of the war and fight at least 1 wave?

That's kinda tricky to make work with how waves are counted. We could try and have one setup where if you haven't completed one since midnight server time you go to a separate quest and that one counts for more if Rolith can get that setup but I'm not sure. I know that in the past there were waves that counted for 2, like a DA quest or something, but I'm not sure how Rolith set those up.

quote:

(I personally would love it if there was a chance of certain waves dropping an item like a weapon in place of the DM, like a 1% chance overall and higher on Rare Waves.)

We've done that in the past so that is possible to do. Would you rather have the rare drop that you can upgrade during/after the war or like a shop that opens on the rare wave screen with all items in it already? Depending on how rare the rare wave is that might even out.

The Hollow Soul - Sometimes we do have an end date and sometimes we don't. Putting the end time on the war itself somewhere is a good idea and one we'll look into doing. I don't think we can do an actual counting down timer but we can put a static set of numbers up to let you know that you have till X date at Y time to finish or you lose.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 53
2/20/2015 12:12:36   
Dragonman
Member

A war shop in the rare waves sounds like a good idea to me, it would convince some people to grind at least until they got a rare wave.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 54
2/20/2015 13:03:11   
pyrox125
Member

I think for Wars of Friday the 13th or that really aren't essential to story what if you created a new mini game for Dragonlords only (DA only) to summon our dragons and wipe out more than one wave at a time. Like in real life there are air assaults with planes. Why not put our dragons to work after a certain %. It would be a creative way of wiping out more than one wave at a time and getting Defender's Medals faster as an incentive to DA players and free players to get a DA. Also wiping out more than one wave at a time and multiple DM at one time would give me incentive to keep going and raise that % meter faster.
AQ DF  Post #: 55
2/20/2015 13:06:57   
Arthur Glacier
Member

^ I like your idea.
That would be fun.
Catapult gets boring quickly.
DF  Post #: 56
2/20/2015 13:09:33   
Adel
Member

Wouldn't that make it way to easy? I would't be suprised if that gets a No as farming was never ment to be that easy :P
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 57
2/20/2015 13:14:17   
pyrox125
Member

quote:

Wouldn't that make it way to easy? I would't be suprised if that gets a No as farming was never ment to be that easy :P


@Adel
That's why Im saying only after a certain % and only DA not everyone gets to do it and not all the time.
AQ DF  Post #: 58
2/20/2015 13:17:18   
Womba
Member

Wars are getting rather dull. It's the same thing every time now. foot waves, switch to catapults when ready. Maybe a DA-only side-quest for a wave. Win. They could stand to use something a bit fresh. I mean... I'm all for making sure we don't abuse our Dragonrider power. But what's stopping us from hopping on and blazing down several waves simultaneously? I dunno... SOMETHING would be nice. Wars have just become so bland and dull. They're not exciting. At all.
DF AQW  Post #: 59
2/20/2015 13:32:31   
Adel
Member

I think people should try suggesting what kind of waves they want and discribe the senario before Ash gets in here annoyed asking what we want and that he can't come up with everything himself as he doesn't know what we like and don't like... and I agree a man can only come up with so many ideas :P

What I want is some kind of story tied to each war that is made even the 13th ones if the sotryline is interesting enough then I think the war would be more interesting, beats the ever Friday the 13th an undead army attacks which is kind nothing else behind it than that... So more interesting stories give us something else to fight than skelletons, goo and monsters. What about necromancers, Vampires, followers of the mysterious stranger? More minions and meaningfull bosses :P
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 60
2/20/2015 14:02:22   
solomi123
Member

Something like AQ, I guess
wars over there often have certain events to it that manipulated the war bar (i.e enemy reinforcement, armies splitting up, ...) which could be done in cutscene

sure beat "foot waves, catapult and repeat", though this will probably only implied to story war
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 61
2/20/2015 14:07:04   
Adel
Member

Won't that make things even harder considering we should have lost this one with only 1 mil waves? xD
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 62
2/20/2015 15:17:30   
Evangel
Member

quote:

We've done that in the past so that is possible to do. Would you rather have the rare drop that you can upgrade during/after the war or like a shop that opens on the rare wave screen with all items in it already? Depending on how rare the rare wave is that might even out.

Personally, I'd rather there be a rare drop that you can upgrade during/after the war. The Wrath of Wargoth war is my most active war because of the Escelense set. But I had 750+ waves completed in that war and not one Rare Wave. Unless the "rarirty" of the Rare Wave is adjusted so you have a little bit higher chance to get one, therefore a higher chance to get whatever is in the Rare Wave shop, I don't think it should be left up to chance to get something special during wars like that.
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 63
2/20/2015 16:02:21   
Myra
Killing time softly


Iím sorry, this is going to be a bit of an essay. But hopefully there are some useful points in there.

I want to add to this discussion with some points that I think could be considered lessons from the Friday 13th war that just ended. For future reference: This war only had one million waves, but we still lost it.

First of all, I want to say that Iím not trying to put the blame on anyone. The staff picked a reasonable size for the war and gave us a reasonable amount of time. The players tried their best to win. But it still ended badly, and I would like a discussion about the reasons, and how we can avoid this in the future. Obviously, Iím speculating about the reasons. I can only know for sure why I personally didnít participate in this war as much as usual, and Iím not speaking for all players Ė but I hope this is helpful to get the discussion going.

So, letís look at the possible reasons:

1 The war was not the only thing going on

It is not ideal if two rare events happen at the same time. Heroís Heart Day started at the same time as the war, and it had some really nice rewards, that you could earn by doing the Snugglegram delivery quest. The very tedious Snugglegram delivery quest that only works when you are wearing the Snugglebear suit which is not exactly the most efficient class in DF. :)
I wanted those rewards, so I did a lot of Snugglegrams in between fighting war waves Ė and I was probably not the only one who got distracted.

2 Initially it was not clear that the war had a deadline

The DNs at the start of the war did not mention that this war was losable, and did not set a deadline. So I did not feel much pressure. I was certain that the war couldnít last much longer than a week because it was only one million waves, and it did not seem like the staff cared when exactly it would be over. We got information about the deadline on Thursday, and thatís when I got more serious about it. If I had known from the start when the war was supposed to end, I would have fought harder from the beginning. I imagine this was the case for others too.

3 The deadline was set at an unfavourable time

I understand why this was done Ė the cutscene for the losing ending had to be prepared on top of the normal release. But thereís no way around it Ė server time at noon on a weekday is not a good time for a final push, as most players will be at work or school.
I am six hours ahead of server time so I had the opportunity to help a little bit in the morning, but most American players most likely were still asleep at that time.

4 The war did not inspire enough motivation

It was a very simple war - undead with F13 masks (not that thatís a bad thing or anything). It wasnít tied to any major storyline, and the stakes did not seem high. The people who take pride in fighting in every war went to the battle as always Ė but many casual players probably did not participate, or just fought a very small number of waves. And we simply do not have the numbers anymore to make up for low motivation. To win a war, even a small one, we basically need everyoneís help, not just the hardcore warmongers.

So, in conclusion, what could be done to prevent this outcome in future wars?

  • Avoid concurrence with other rare events: I think this issue has a low priority, because it is not very common and it is probably not possible to avoid it altogether Ė if a Friday the 13th happens immediately before Valentineís Day because thatís how calendars work, there is nothing the staff could do about it. But maybe if something like this happens again, we could get an announcement with information about how long the rare event will stay in game. For example, if I had known that the war was supposed to end Friday morning and the HHD event will stay around for a few days after it, I would most likely have put off the HHD farming and focused on the war.

  • Announce war deadlines early: This would give us a better sense of how much time we have left and how well or how badly we are doing at any given point in the war. Sure, the HWC tells us if we are fast or slow, but that in itself doesnít tell us how likely we are to win. Information on how much time is left before the war ends adds a lot more pressure/motivation in my opinion.

  • Set deadlines in the evening if possible: This would give more players the chance to help in the final hours.

  • Make changes to wars that reflect how the community has changed
    Honestly, this is a point I do not like to discuss much. I do not like to think that a game that I think is now at its absolute peak of quality in terms of storytelling and artwork is long past its peak of popularity. But thatís how it is. We are a much smaller community, and the structure of the community has changed. When DF started, I think most of us were school or university students. Now many of us have jobs, and maybe even families to look after. So not only are we fewer people, we are fewer people who have less time on their hands and different priorities.

    So, here are some thoughts what could be done to reflect this change:

  • Have fewer wars. Personally, I would not like this solution at all, because I love wars and I think they are a very important way to connect the community. But if wars were rarer, and only happened in connection with major plot points, the motivation would probably increase, because there would be fewer opportunities to earn DMs and the consequences for the storyline would keep players interested.

  • Have smaller wars. Again, I would not like this personally. One million waves should be the minimum for a war in my opinion. But if it comes to the choice of: Have wars with a couple hundred thousand waves or lose every single war because there are not enough players, I would rather choose this option.

  • Accept that wars might last longer than a week, forego deadlines. This could be an alternative: Keep wars at the same frequency and the same size as they are now, but give us more time Ė just have the boss fight happen whenever the war is over Ė basically, take the ďloseĒ option away (of course that wouldnít work if a war has storyline implications, Iím talking F13 wars and things like that). Iím not sure how this would affect motivation, but again I would prefer it to losing frequently.

  • Try to increase the size of the community. This would be the solution I would like the most, but it is also the hardest to achieve. I just realised a while ago that I havenít seen any online adds for DF in ages. So the only new players joining us are most likely coming from other AE games or they are returning players. Now, adds cost money, and new players arenít necessarily going to pay for the game, and I guess if the staff thought this was a viable option theyíd be doing it already. I just thought Iíd bring it up, because maybe the players themselves can do something to promote the game a little bit (Iím talking about you kids with your social media thingies that I donít use myself :D).

    Feel free to criticize these points and to add more ideas!


    < Message edited by Myra -- 2/20/2015 16:11:34 >
  • DF MQ  Post #: 64
    2/20/2015 16:08:43   
    The Hollow Soul
    Member

    @Myra, for the second point about this war not having a deadline, that was because Ash and the team thought we'd have it done by Monday since it was so small. When they saw that wasn't going to be the case they had to come up with a timeline that worked with them and didn't interfere with tonight's release and the UI update. That's also why we got the weird time for finishing. Ash had this cut-scene for the war to make (win and loss) and coding for whatever we're getting tonight to take into consideration when picking a deadline.

    DF  Post #: 65
    2/20/2015 16:16:16   
    Myra
    Killing time softly


    @Hollow: Yes, the staff had good reasons for everything they did, and I'm not trying to say "if this had been done differently, we would have won, woe is me". I made this list to analyse what lessons can be learned for future wars. Like, for example: Even a war of just one million waves is not a guarantee that it will be finished quickly.
    DF MQ  Post #: 66
    2/20/2015 16:24:38   
    The Hollow Soul
    Member

    @Myra, I wasn't at all trying to make that seem like what you were saying. Just giving the point of why this war had such a weird end time.


    quote:

    Have fewer wars.

    Have fewer wars is probably going to have to be a solution to this issue that I know a few warmongers aren't going to like. We no longer have the player size where we can get 8 - 10 wars a year and beat all of them. It may have to drop to 4 or 5 wars a year. Having an influx of wars can easily burn players out and I think we're starting to see that come into the game for once.

    quote:

    Accept that wars might last longer than a week, forego deadlines


    I think in this day and age for DF we need deadlines for wars. Now it doesn't have to be a "You have seven days or else" deadline, but a deadline where the staff says "Okay, if you guys aren't done by now it's over." is needed or else non-motivated wars will last way longer than they should. Just look at the Pirate Vs Ninja monkey war. That took way longer than the staff wanted but continued to drag on because the staff never set down a solid end date. That was also during a high in player activity, just think if we had a war like that now with no deadline.

    < Message edited by The Hollow Soul -- 2/20/2015 16:26:06 >
    DF  Post #: 67
    2/20/2015 16:29:48   
    The Jop
    Member

    Fewer wars is definitely a good idea, because I know I'm burnt out. Some players (a tiny percentage) like to war nonstop, but for the community to play at their best, they need sizable breaks between wars. I think deadlines should only be part of a war if it's relevant to the story, like there will be something horrible happening in a matter of time, not just for the sake of making things more difficult.

    _____________________________

    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 68
    2/20/2015 16:58:46   
      Verlyrus
    DragonFable Boxcat


    Hey guys! Verly here.

    I just wanted to let you guys know- we always predict for both loss and win of a war. When you guys fail a war, that's okay! We prepare for both outcomes every time.

    We also agree that we've put too many wars on you guys in too short a period of time. A bunch of you really really like wars, but like with ice cream or cat treats, if you have too many in too short a time, even if you like it, you might get a tummy ache. So I think this is probably going to be the best option. We have some cool ideas up our sleeves to help with that.

    Announcing deadlines is interesting- definitely a good idea, and something we can play around with.

    But I want to let you guys know we're listening. We had a discussion about this issue a couple days ago, and we definitely have plans to make things different in the future. Meow! :3
    AQ MQ  Post #: 69
    2/20/2015 17:04:50   
    pyrox125
    Member

    quote:

    I think for Wars of Friday the 13th or that really aren't essential to story what if you created a new mini game for Dragonlords only (DA only) to summon our dragons and wipe out more than one wave at a time. Like in real life there are air assaults with planes. Why not put our dragons to work after a certain %. It would be a creative way of wiping out more than one wave at a time and getting Defender's Medals faster as an incentive to DA players and free players to get a DA. Also wiping out more than one wave at a time and multiple DM at one time would give me incentive to keep going and raise that % meter faster.


    I still like my Dragonlord Idea it's time to shake things up a bit.
    AQ DF  Post #: 70
    2/20/2015 17:31:06   
      Stephen Nix

    Undead Penguinmancer DragonFable


    You know what inspires me to participate in a war?

    A war introduction. A simple cutscene. (Sounds easier said than done I realize that)

    Edit: That and the music used in it. But I believe this war was set up like this on purpose as it followed the exact aspect of the very first undead war!

    < Message edited by Stephen Nix -- 2/20/2015 17:32:56 >
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 71
    2/20/2015 17:38:44   
      Jay

    Navigator of
    DragonFable


    Hmm trust me to make my return to the game after the war surge. Looks like I'll be farming the 13th war all next week too, I need those Defender's Medals!
    DF  Post #: 72
    2/20/2015 17:53:13   
      Stephen Nix

    Undead Penguinmancer DragonFable


    ^ Likewise for me, I'm too busy right now in my RL. So soon I will be back in full force and be able to participate in wars so much more.

    A lot of students are in school, I am expecting a completely different situation to occur next war reason is during Lucky Day, most students in North America will be under March Break. I think the results will be much different. But that's just my opinion...
    AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 73
    2/20/2015 18:32:54   
      Verlyrus
    DragonFable Boxcat


    quote:

    A war introduction. A simple cutscene. (Sounds easier said than done I realize that)


    THIS for sure. This F13 war was just dropped from low earth orbit. It wasn't fair to you guys, definitely.
    AQ MQ  Post #: 74
    2/20/2015 18:41:55   
    Womba
    Member

    That's a really big problem that's actually rather common to boot, Verly. We didn't really have any incentive to fight... just... "Here's a war. Go hit stuff."
    DF AQW  Post #: 75
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