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8/21/2015 15:57:26   
Vypie
Member

@Space Robin

I'm afraid you haven't interpreted very well what I said. I will clarify a bit better, while explaining the whys.

Like you figured out, yes, the pool of skills would obviously be specific to THAT class. I did not mention learning skills that belong to other classes, it would just be silly. :)

About 'powercreeps'. I also did not mention even having "Top-tiers" or anything like that.

Keep up with me now:
-They are trying to make it simple, by only having a few number of skills to click/tap. Too many would clutter the screen, so we need each skill to be unique.
-There should be NO other skills that have the same effect. It is a waste if you have a VERY similar skill that fulfills the same purpose, but where one is clearly better than the other. Not a good idea. Instead, you could have two Damage skills EQUALLY powerful, but different in the way they work, allowing for different builds. (I will give an example after)
-There should be no tiers, ranks, or better versions of current skills. Just make the base skill grow in power as you level up and get better equipment/stats. We can't afford to let other skills ROT. Why even?
-No skill should be considered insignificant. If they are balanced to have the same potential, it may not seem useful to you, but to another player, it could be better.

Another thing to note: There will be NO healers in this game. All classes will have survival skills to be able to stand on their own.
Also, they will probably limit the number of classes. ----> This is NOT AQWorlds, where some classes are distinctively better than others, and there's TONS of them, it's overwhelming in a really bad, unbalanced way.

Now, i'm going to talk about diversity, and why it is important:
Diversity is a GOOD thing. It makes the game MORE FUN and interesting. It enables you to find your own playstyle, which is a different experience from player to player.
You say you would rather have 4-6 skills for one class, where, for example, all rogues would be the same. You know what would happen? Carbon copies of eachother, where to perform the best, everyone has to play the exact same way, with the stats specifically adjusted to make the most of that class. It's boring!
"You can just get a new class". So if I really like the 'Rogue' class what can I do to change the way I can play? How can I experiment with the character? It seems a waste to me to have a bunch of classes that would just be carbon copies. And I do not think it is a good idea either, because you would need a completely new set of equipment from the ground up just to make class changing worth it.

It is NOT a waste to have more skills to choose from. It is NOT a waste to add depth to a class! It is awesome to try and find different build in the same class that you already love playing!
Diversity is basically standard in all good games, be it from 'Talent Trees', 'Specializations', spending 'Points' to upgrade skills of your choice, etc. You are NEVER the same as other players if you want.

-You could make your 'Rogue' more sneaky, with Stealth, and most skills based on surprise Burst attacks and leaving the enemy badly poisoned, but leaving youself vulnerable after the initial assault, and thus, relying on Hit and run tactics. A possible skill to help this build would be a movement trap, to allow you to escape between your Bursts of damage, while the poison drains them.
-A rogue that can stand toe-to-toe with an enemy in melee combat, With skills chosen around the idea of dodging, to then counter-attack. You would probably try to find armour with higher dodge%, to make better use of that. A skill to pull aggro from the boss would be useful, as you would be quite tanky in this build, while dodging also benefits your damage.
-A rogue that focuses on critical damage, so skills that have higher chance to crit (but lower base damage) would be better for this build. A skill where your critical chance is increased by 50% for 5 second sounds pretty rogue-like to me, and would fit this build.
-A rogue that prefers to stun his target to avoid damage, and then be able to use a high power "backstab" skill while the enemy has his back vulnerable.
-A rogue that is built around the idea of gaining health from attacks, such as "vampire strike" for survival, instead of extra dodging. You could also have something like an MP drain, in the same 'theme'. A strategy could be to wear out the enemy slowly and come out on top. This rogue could also benefit from the "stun" skill, to not be vulnerable while waiting for the cooldowns of the HP or MP drains, also to give time for your health to refill bit by bit. Very useful against bosses, although not the best in damage, it can survive on its own and weaken the boss (should they use mana, eventually).

There's ENDLESS things you could do by Mixing skills around. I gave many examples, and those would probably surpass the 12 skills I said in the other post. But there is so much potential, so why not?
This would create a big variety in players, even with just 6 classes. Not every person would have to use the SAME armor and weapons, now every person would play the same way as you, and in PvP... wow, it would be SO much fun! The element of the unknown when you see a class, and you do not know yet what specialization that player did.
Some abilities would be better in combo with another ones, some would have different kinds of qualities and weaknesses, you could experiment without feeling punished for playing a class, because EVERY class should have a way to be useful in all aspects of the game.
PvP, bosses, soloing, AoE, etc.
I don't want to be locked out of a class If I want to participate in something. "Oh, this is the tank class, and this is the Damage class, and this is the support class", "We don't want more Warriors right now. Go change to Mage, we need damage class." "but I don't have Mage equipments..." "Too bad, then you cannot come."

Do you understand now? This is really important to me, because I have seen other games fail, and taking out the fun from players because the class "isn't good for that".

World of Warcraft, for example, had this problem during the early times. Classes didn't have much variety. If you were a warrior, you HAD to be a tank. if you were a Druid or Priest, you could ONLY become a healer if you wanted to participate in any group. If you specialized for damage, you would be turned off, because it was just not good as other Damage classes. If you didn't want to be a healer in boss battles, the only option was to start from SCRATCH with a new character and class.
Today, you can be a druid and specialize in Tanking, Healing, Spell damage caster, or even Melee damage dealer! And they are all functional and useful! (although some classes still cannot tank or heal, but instead, you can choose from very different styles of play when it comes to dealing damage).
Epic  Post #: 126
8/21/2015 16:33:50   
LyRein
Member

I fully support the idea of no healers, but everyone can support themselves. The idea of JUST specializing in healing is overused, cliched and generally... boring.

AQWorlds did it, but it messed up BIG TIME. Starting off with the typical TANK, DPS, MAGIC DPS, HEAL and THEN going on to self-support when they already have so many classes.

Constant powercreeps and: WE WANT TO 0HKO MOBS are unreal.

Number of skills is also to blame. Reason why people want new classes:

A) They just like collecting
B) They got bored of another skillset (4 skills isn't satisfying).

If you want to support the whole team, then you should have a skilltree.

NO, NOT the generic "this skill or this skill"
Instead, a new or not-very-used tree.

Let's say, you have 6 skills (not the typical one set on-top of the other, more side-by-side)
You have a heal (or more, they COULD make some classes LEAN towards the healing spectrum, keyword LEAN) and by default it is self-heal or group heal.

Going into your skill-tree, a nice window/interface appears.
You see small icons near the top of the interface that are your 6 skills.

Under them are branches.
Each skill has a branch leading to two or three different TYPE.

TYPE would be, for heals (both group and self): HoT (heal over time) or HoS (heal on spot).
HoT is, obviously, healing in small numbers over a short/long period of time.
HoS would be your chunk of heal, no duration, just a nice big number adding onto your health bar.

HoT does not get you to near full but it does provide a stable defense.
HoS gets you to near but it lacks the support HoT gives.

E.G,
You're near low.

Using a HoT, you'll slowly, but surely, regain health.
Your chances of dying will still be high, however, if you do get hit and it's not a one-hit, you don't have to worry about healing and wasting mana again, as you will be regenerating.
You won't be near full after time is up, though you will be alive and would have survived those deathly hits.
Do remember, you're not getting the power heals that HoS provides, so you can still die just as fast once your HoT is over.

Using a HoS, you're regaining so much health immediately.
Your chances of dying will be low, but your chances of getting hit are high, and you lack the regeneration HoT gives.
You could die just as easily if you're low on mana or your skill is on a cooldown. resulting in you having to wait for a cooldown and waste regained mana when faced with low health again.


< Message edited by LyRein -- 8/21/2015 16:35:23 >
Post #: 127
8/21/2015 17:08:42   
Vypie
Member

As we know now, they are thinking of having a skill tree.

If you played Epicduel, that's an example of a typical skill tree.
Let's do an even better one, where you do NOT spend extra point to make a skill better, but only to LEARN the skill. That's all we need.

Otherwise, players will dump 'Skill tree' points in only two skills, leaving the rest of the skills SO WEAK, they become completely useless. A skill tree doesn't not need to have a huge amount of available points. it just needs diversity in the skills themselves.
Just make it so that from a selection of skills in a tree, you learn up to 6 at once, or something. Choose the skills you want, and use them ALL. Simple!
Do not limit the tree too much: Having one skill that requires a previous one to be learned, which again requires a previous one, makes choosing a build very limiting, and basically... boring.

__________


If I could choose? I would rather have no connected skills at all. Just give players the freedom of choices! Remove the requirements of having to learn other skills that you do not care about. I've talked about it before, but I will expand on the idea:
Make a SKILL LIBRARY where you can see all the skills you have unlocked/learned. You can then, for a small fee, re-choose 6 skills from that list.
If you were a Warrior, that list would only present to you all warrior skills you have collected. (Not other skills from other classes, obviously)

Instead of 'skill tree' points, you could find interesting ways to learn new skills.
Some of the most basic, straightforward skills should be learned by level up, each 5 levels, for example.
Others could be learned by doing a special quest.
Loot from monsters, as skill books. (maybe some of these could be bought from a shop too?).

The more advanced skills should be learned later, as you gain some knowledge about the game. They would have more complex effects, but should not be more powerful than the simplest skills.
Instead, their effects simply provide new ways of playing, which with the right build/stats, or in combo with other skills, they can be of better use to your playstyle.

(This way, even collectors will like the idea of searching for new skills. These skills should NEVER suffer the effects of 'powercreep', unless you want the game ruined.)


< Message edited by Vypie -- 8/21/2015 17:13:29 >
Epic  Post #: 128
8/21/2015 17:19:31   
LyRein
Member

@above

that won't work cause you have to buy classes.
Post #: 129
8/21/2015 17:38:29   
Vypie
Member

Hum.. I do not see how that relates or even conflicts with the skills idea.

Please, correct me if I am wrong:
You mean something like... "they need you to buy classes to play with new skills", meaning that we shouldn't be able to collect skills, but only classes instead?

Because that's pretty much like AQWorlds, and that doesn't work very well, frankly.
Epic  Post #: 130
8/21/2015 18:27:58   
LyRein
Member

no
they always make classes then release them with all the skills alongside it, for a fee of micro or gold.

now imagine trying to make a system like collecting skills work in the long-run

< Message edited by LyRein -- 8/21/2015 18:28:35 >
Post #: 131
8/21/2015 18:48:14   
Vypie
Member

I am, and it seems pretty simple. I mean, most games have a much larger amount of skills and complexity. How do they manage it? ;)

Like I said, Some skills would be able to be bought, and this could be done with gold or real money.
But lets face it. Why have all the skills from the start? Skills should be earned as you Progress with that class, as you level up, and such. It is also better to learn how to play a class from the ground up, being introduced to new skills overtime.

Well, I guess they could always release a new Class, where for a micro transaction, that class would instantly learn all its skills, and maybe even all leveled up, to make sense.
But heh, I don't know. In my opinion, learning skills should be part of the progression.

quote:

they always make

This game is new, it has nothing to do with AQworls, so the way they do things does not have to be, and will most likely not be the same. Both share the same 'World' as the original AdventureQuest, that's just it. AQworlds is also very different, compared to original AQ.
Epic  Post #: 132
8/21/2015 18:52:41   
LyRein
Member

@above

cause those classes come with a pre-made skill tree lol
Post #: 133
8/21/2015 19:01:09   
Vypie
Member

Well, you said my suggestion wouldn't work. In my suggestion, the idea was having no Skill trees at all. So yeah, no "pre-made skill trees" either. :P

My suggestion would not work if they used the Skill tree idea (which might be what they are going to do). I just suggested an alternate skill system, see?
Epic  Post #: 134
8/22/2015 20:32:12   
Feralun
Member

There's something on another topic I'd personally like to bring up.

I believe Cysero said something on Twitter about /join commands only being available at the moment for quick access in alpha (makes testing easier), and that it would later be removed.

How will we get to our favorite places faster? Will there be a map that lets us teleport to a starting point of each area (like how Battleon is the central area of Greenguard, or how DoomwoodForest is the beginning part of the entire Doomwood area)? That would make our lives easier, while still making us do SOME traveling on our own. Will we have to pay a teleportation fee? Will we be able to set different towns as our default login place, will we always start in YulgarsInn, or will we start where we last logged off at?

And another point is, the /join command is how we access private rooms in AQW. Will we not have private rooms? Will we even have party rooms or guild rooms to fight in? One of the best things when playing in an MMORPG is being able to play with friends. The lack of private rooms would make that much harder, so I'm wondering what the team will do about this.

Can't wait to see how the team goes about doing this :)
AQW  Post #: 135
8/22/2015 20:44:27   
Vypie
Member

Instead of having to write a command, which not everyone usually knows how it works, you can always have NPCs that when talked to, you can choose where to go.
There could be also NPCs/warp pads that could teleport you, or even make you ride a flying "Taxi" creature, to quickly access some locations discovered in a map. (towns, hubs, other "safe" spots), like you mentioned.

And yeah, we should have to pay a fee when fast-traveling, at least.


If you log out somewhere, you should log in back in the same place. Imagine if you got disconnected, and you had to travel aaaaaall the way back to your friends. It would not be good at all.
Epic  Post #: 136
8/22/2015 21:01:16   
Feralun
Member

I would honestly prefer there not be a fee for long distant travel, but I can see it happening. I hope what they do with it, is make it so the fee isn't too much for experienced players, but is enough to make newer players want to explore instead of using quick travel.

Even so, I would expect long distant travel to have limitations. Make it put users at the beginning point of a general area, rather than at the exact spot they wanna be. For example, since Battleon is like the central area of Greenguard (at least, in AQW, it is), make it so one wanting to go to Greenguard South would have one of two options.
1. Teleport to Battleon and walk to Greenguard South
2. Teleport to Doomwood Forest and take the cave to Greenguard South

I do agree with your point on logging in at the same place one logged out. At the very least, logging back in at that general area's starting point. Especially since this game will be on mobile devices, and you never know when you'll go through a dead zone while playing on your unlimited data.

On the point of some not knowing the different commands though, there should honestly be something that shows this to all new players, as well as an in-game reference that one can use to see such things. But if that's not done, I think there should at least be a button or two in settings that lets one move to a party room or guild room.
AQW  Post #: 137
8/22/2015 22:35:44   
Vypie
Member

Yeah, the fee shouldn't be expensive. Only a symbolic cost of a few coins. The price should take distance in consideration.

As for the commands, for me it feels... fake. It takes immersion out of the game. I think an NPC/warp pad with the function to take you to those 'rooms' would work nicely, should they add such features. :)


Oh, I just remembered. they should add an "Unstuck" option for when your character gets stuck somewhere, or has fallen in a hole of some sort. This feature would teleport your character to the closest open ground place. I guarantee it could prevent plenty of headaches! :D
Epic  Post #: 138
8/23/2015 7:43:56   
LyRein
Member

It makes more sense for the fee to be higher, not by your level, but by that area's level of difficulty.
The higher you go in level the more money you get through quests/farming in higher leveled areas.

I strongly agree that it should ONLY be for hub areas, like Battleon, Necrotower, Swordhaven, etc.

I don't see the issue with no private rooms?
There's no space limit with the current system, so I don't see the point in adding private room features, with most people's statements being: it's hard to find your friends.

How is it, there's no space limit remember and they'll be adding friends list or a similar feature, which would provide a goto command.

quote:

Oh, I just remembered. they should add an "Unstuck" option for when your character gets stuck somewhere, or has fallen in a hole of some sort. This feature would teleport your character to the closest open ground place. I guarantee it could prevent plenty of headaches!


Or they could actually try to fix that bug lol..

quote:

On the point of some not knowing the different commands though, there should honestly be something that shows this to all new players, as well as an in-game reference that one can use to see such things. But if that's not done, I think there should at least be a button or two in settings that lets one move to a party room or guild room.


Commands break the immersion, makes the game easier (no point in exploring or mounts if you can just do /join).
Honestly, to me if you can't live without the /join command you're pretty lazy, just my opinion.

If it's mostly due to not being in the same area where you last logged in, then FIX that, not add features to cover it up.

@Vypie

The reason your class system might not work is because they'd have to add unlockable/secret skills for every class they release. How do you unlock them anyways, where do you collect them?

We need these details, if it's just a level-up and get a skill thing, THAT'S the most like AQWorlds if anything.

Also, what do you exactly mean by "re-collect 6 skills"?

< Message edited by LyRein -- 8/23/2015 7:46:59 >
Post #: 139
8/23/2015 9:50:26   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


@LyRein:

quote:

Or they could actually try to fix that bug lol..


The "fall through the floor" bug is pretty common in a lot of games, and might pop up with every new release. Having a button or a command to get out of endless pits/stuck in a tree's roots would be useful. It could work as a "insta-die" button, making you faint and respawn at the start of the area.

quote:


Commands break the immersion, makes the game easier (no point in exploring or mounts if you can just do /join).
Honestly, to me if you can't live without the /join command you're pretty lazy, just my opinion.


There can be more commands than just /join, though. What about "emoticons"? They can also be used for all sorts of useful things like getting un-stuck, using them to chat in private, open up menus, etc.
DF AQW  Post #: 140
8/23/2015 10:03:55   
LyRein
Member

@David

Common in most pre-2013 games yes lol

EDIT
Fall through floor isn't even common, it IS a bug that is fixed in "most other games".

By commands i'm mostly speaking of commands that would fit a behind-the-scenes developer build of a game like /join





< Message edited by LyRein -- 8/23/2015 10:05:08 >
Post #: 141
8/23/2015 12:02:33   
Vypie
Member

quote:

Or they could actually try to fix that bug lol..

Like you said, I guess its not as common in today's games, but still, when exploring, we might end up in a hole we can't just jump out, or stuck in the "hitbox" of more complex objects, such as roots, and the like.
It happened to me, and even though I could get out by moving erratically while jumping. But sometimes, you cannot get out even if you try.
It is a thing bound to happen when you have a 3D character that interacts with complex terrain. It is not even a bug, but more how the hitboxes of the 3D models interact together.

Falling through the floor, now, can be an example of a bug(less likely to happen in more recent games, as you said). OR, it happened due to the way the terrain was constructed. Any explorer kind of player will try to squeeze and jump to places seemingly unreachable, only to find spots where the map has no floors at all. (I have been in situations like.. "what happens if I jump from here?" and guess what.. perpetual falling haha!)
Falling through the floor could be solved by making your character simply die when it reaches certain depth.

quote:

The reason your class system might not work is because they'd have to add unlockable/secret skills for every class they release. How do you unlock them anyways, where do you collect them?

We need these details, if it's just a level-up and get a skill thing, THAT'S the most like AQWorlds if anything.

Also, what do you exactly mean by "re-collect 6 skills"?

How would we know where to get those skills, right? That's a good question. Since every class would have these individual skills to learn, it could be a problem to keep track of them all.
But that can be solved. For example, all unobtained skills would appear grayed out in the skill library. So you would know if you were missing any.

By clicking on a grayed-out skill, you get a description of what it does. (Just like in a Skill tree). In this case, maybe each skill should even have information on its whereabouts:
Things like.. the name of a mission (or the location of that mission), the name of an NPC that teaches it, if its buyable in a shop, if it drops in a specific boss or mosnter, or if it requires you to reach a certain level, or even if Its just a skillbook laying on the ground or in a locked chest!

I guess it shouldn't be super complicated, but at the same time promote exploring, and finding!
It would also be fun to find skills for other classes that you haven't played with yet, maybe that way, if you change class, you already had some interesting stuff to use right away! :D

I do not recall saying "re-collect 6 skills". I did say, however, "rechoose 6 skills from that list". Which means that if you had collected 10 or even more skills, you would still only be able to take 6 of them into combat.
Collecting more skills opens up more possibilities of builds to use, widens the amount of choices and combos with older skills, and gives you freedom to find your own playstyle. It can be very interesting and fun to work around the limit of 6! :)



< Message edited by Vypie -- 8/23/2015 12:03:12 >
Epic  Post #: 142
8/23/2015 12:49:43   
LyRein
Member

@above

Or they could put a simple invisible barrier near areas with no flooring.
Another mobile limitation to add to the list: Lacks heavy load space that PC offers to grant bigger world.

How many skills will each class have exactly?
Post #: 143
8/23/2015 14:45:49   
Vypie
Member

Oh, but they said will put plenty of emphasis on exploring. Its not so heavy if all areas are small, like the ones we see already. They are split in small sections, so the game can handle it.

How many skills hum.. that's up to discussion. At least, enough skills to allow the developers to be creative. If we end up having ONLY a maximum of 5 skills throughout the game, they would have to be pretty basic. Two damage skills, a recovering ability, a defensive ability, another one such as stealth (in the case of rogues)... Its harder to make room for creative effects if you only have room for CORE abilities. (although rogues will also have traps, I wonder how they will work)

I think there should be enough to mix and match around and come up with interesting combinations. Its not that hard to come up with ideas for new skills, but they would have to be well balanced.


If I had to give a number... maybe 12 (that's the number I came up with at first). Maybe not immediately, since the game will still be small for a while.
But I could see the game reaching a pool of 20 skills for each class, as time went on.
It would be nice to keep updating the game with new zones, new monsters, new armor, new classes, but ALSO new skills of choice for older classes too! This is an excellent way to keep things fresh, instead of leaving older classes unchanged for eternity... =/
Epic  Post #: 144
8/25/2015 2:30:15   
Muril Sis
Member
 

Hi guys, enjoying the Alpha stage thus far. You may of seen me in game, going by the name of 'Muril Sis'. I'm a Mac user so presently can't use the chat to interact with other players which is frustrating. Any updates on this?

Hi all. I'm assuming a 'saved game' saved progress etc would eat up to much server. How about maker points? Like a 'marker stone' In each significant area - with a 'quick travel' to every area you've marked. I believe this is reasonably easy to do. It also allows for active exploration to build this character map.

Please do not double-post, it is considered spam and only clutters the page. Next time use the button to add in any additional information to your post. If you do accidentally make an extra post then use the button to delete that extra post.
For more information, please read the =AE= Comprehensive Forum Rules > Posting . ~Gingkage


< Message edited by Gingkage -- 8/25/2015 10:11:18 >
Post #: 145
8/25/2015 19:10:04   
Silver Sol Los
Member

Soooooo...Undead Terror managed to be broke again.

I feel so sorry for Zhoom right now. Now Undead Terror can't get stuck in trees, but he sure as hell can get stuck beside them





< Message edited by Silver Sol Los -- 8/27/2015 17:30:11 >
AQW  Post #: 146
8/25/2015 21:52:11   
RKC
Member

I dont know if you guys know what real time combat in MMO's are but I hope AE puts it in this game.

What I mean about real time combat is. No more Lock on skills meaning you can dodge attacks in real time, same goes to monsters.

They should also make it that the mouse will control everything. The mouse should control your direction when you click you can attack normaly those basic stuff that MMOs are in today.

I think if AE does that this game will sell like hotcakes.

One Huge example for this is Tera Online.
AQ DF MQ Epic  Post #: 147
8/25/2015 23:21:20   
Vypie
Member

@above

Sadly, such combat system would never be implemented, because they want it to be playable from a tablet too. That means using the mouse to aim the attacks would be impossible. :(
Epic  Post #: 148
8/25/2015 23:41:45   
RKC
Member

Why not make it for the PC only. Tablets get what they plan for.

Because if AE doesnt even do the new things MMOs have these days. It will just look like an old game. With old game mechanics

< Message edited by RKC -- 8/25/2015 23:42:44 >
AQ DF MQ Epic  Post #: 149
8/25/2015 23:48:30   
Vexx
Undead Lunatic


quote:

I dont know if you guys know what real time combat in MMO's are but I hope AE puts it in this game.

What I mean about real time combat is. No more Lock on skills meaning you can dodge attacks in real time, same goes to monsters.

They should also make it that the mouse will control everything. The mouse should control your direction when you click you can attack normaly those basic stuff that MMOs are in today.

I think if AE does that this game will sell like hotcakes.

One Huge example for this is Tera Online.


@RKC
I definitely wish the combat felt more like that as well, I am a big fan of those sorts of games. There's been talk about a dodging system where you can roll to dodge attacks and Korin even created the rolling animations for it, so there's a strong possibility that it could be implemented. However when it comes to skill locking and aiming your skills, I personally don't believe it'd be viable to have implemented into AQ3D as it would probably be very difficult to accurately aim your ability when playing on a mobile device. Who knows though, anything is possible and I'm sure the devs are working their hardest to push the game to it's limits!
AQ DF AQW  Post #: 150
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